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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2014 02:33 PM |
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jeremiahemo said:
more on because it's hard to imagine these weak-looking, unimaginative, hard-to-believe creature being in a war lineup. What's worst is that they are melee fighters, which makes them even more unrealistic.
Heroes of Might and Magic: A franchise known for it's profound realism.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 03:18 PM |
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alcibiades said:
My gripes with the Justicar is not the sole fact that she's female, that is just one of many things I dislike by the unit. To try to summarize the reasons I dislike it:
1) We already have 5 human units, do we need yet another?
Well yes unless you want heaven to be the only faction with only 7 units instead of 8. Heaven never had more than 1 non-human unit so I don't see the problem. The lack of Griffin has been established in the lore already and besides they needed a rest from the series even tho they'll be back via plothole in the campaigns. Also, have fun trying to find an accaptable non-human unit for heaven that won't cause a larger sithstorm than than any unicorn/phonix debate ever could.
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2a) We already have a human unit armed with a sword (and another melee human unit in the core), do we need yet another?
You call THAT a sword?(I kid) Would a hammer wielding unit made more sense? Maybe dual swords? The first will get you accused of copying from warhammer and the second from warcraft.
And yes we do. Don't look at it as simply a melee unit. Look at the lineup first.
Core: melee-ranged-cavalary
Elite:melee/(possibly)caster-ranged/caster-cavalary
Champion:melee-(presumably)flyer/cavalary
I see no problem here, so far so balanced. Infact this allows 2 casters is the Heaven lineup without those horrid Glories. Or if they get a crossbow instead of casting then heaven ends up with 3 ranged units. Not a problem if properly balanced.
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2b) If she's actually a shooter, what will that make of the priest, will he become a melee unit instead (effectively duplicating 2a) or will he become a support unit without ranged attack (eliminating the tactical element of how to apply priest and thus making game less interesting)?
The day they make a pure support unit that is not a warmachine is the day they can close down the shop. That would be moronic.
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3) I think there's plenty of room to depict "capable women" in form of female units.
That is not a gripe. Next.
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4) In-game references to a game I found horrible is not enough to justify its presence for me (couldn't care less about legacy of Irina-whoever-that-is).
In-game references to a game I pretend never happened do not have anything to do with the unit. Units come and go with each iteration of the game and should they suddenly decide to add half-giants to the roster and manage to come up with a proper(too much hoping for a good) reasoning for it to be there even if we never see the unit ever again it will be worth it. Some of the units which are now considered staple units of the faction/franchise came into being this way. Even if they don't ever make a comeback in future games, they managed to refresh the game just a bit and that is all we can hope for.
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5) This unit has no historical or mythological roots and therefore fails to catch my interest and I fail to see why it needs to be introduced, cf. points 1-2.
See point 1-4. Also, they can alwasy add functions to the unit to make it interesting.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 03:37 PM |
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We finaly get a fine female unit in Haven after H6 glories, and you guys start bickering about how bad it is  seriously?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted September 28, 2014 03:46 PM |
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Alex_Yakub said:
We finaly get a fine female unit in Haven after H6 glories, and you guys start bickering about how bad it is seriously?
We had female unit in Knight Castle in HoMM2 already - it was Archer/Ranger.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 03:50 PM |
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Avonu said:
Alex_Yakub said:
We finaly get a fine female unit in Haven after H6 glories, and you guys start bickering about how bad it is seriously?
We had female unit in Knight Castle in HoMM2 already - it was Archer/Ranger.
No, I meant that guardian/justicars are great compared to H6 Haven's glories 
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted September 28, 2014 03:56 PM |
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It's not that hard.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 04:05 PM |
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First off, sorry for the stupid typo in point 3), should have said female heroes, not female units (that was the whole point, duh!).
fuChris said:
Well yes unless you want heaven to be the only faction with only 7 units instead of 8. Heaven never had more than 1 non-human unit so I don't see the problem. The lack of Griffin has been established in the lore already and besides they needed a rest from the series even tho they'll be back via plothole in the campaigns. Also, have fun trying to find an accaptable non-human unit for heaven that won't cause a larger sithstorm than than any unicorn/phonix debate ever could.
Well I would define Angel as non-human, but technicality asides, my whole point was that now with the expanded line-up (from 7 to 8 creatures) they finally had the chance of improving the ratios for Haven a bit by adding a none-human unit - but instead, they chose to add another unit, so they make ratio even worse.
But apart from that, to address what you say about the Griffin, I hate the main game being slave to the lore, particularly when the lore is really only relevant to the campaigns. Ok so what we play Wolf duty this time, could I care less? If they want to depict that, make a special line-up for the campaign where they remove the Griffin, and fit the Griffin in the regular game, if that was the best solution. But I'm not even saying that IS the best solution or the one I would go for, I can live with the Griffin not being there, and they could come up with alternatives. The Sun Deer for instance would fit into both the fact that Haven is a LIGHT faction and the fact that there is also a Stag duchy, so there was a fine option imo.
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What will happen now?
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 04:33 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Well I would define Angel as non-human, but technicality asides, my whole point was that now with the expanded line-up (from 7 to 8 creatures) they finally had the chance of improving the ratios for Haven a bit by adding a none-human unit - but instead, they chose to add another unit, so they make ratio even worse.
But apart from that, to address what you say about the Griffin, I hate the main game being slave to the lore, particularly when the lore is really only relevant to the campaigns. Ok so what we play Wolf duty this time, could I care less? If they want to depict that, make a special line-up for the campaign where they remove the Griffin, and fit the Griffin in the regular game, if that was the best solution. But I'm not even saying that IS the best solution or the one I would go for, I can live with the Griffin not being there, and they could come up with alternatives. The Sun Deer for instance would fit into both the fact that Haven is a LIGHT faction and the fact that there is also a Stag duchy, so there was a fine option imo.
It doesn't matter which duchy we are playing at the moment. The unicorn duchy is named after the Pristine Unicorn that is sacred to Elrath. But it was already in H5 sylvan. The stag duchy has probably a similar relationship with the Sun Deer. But both of these would be the cheap way to introduce "new" units since both of these are sylvan units so we are left with either the wolf or the griffin or both. But other than these two, coming up with truly original creatures is a pain in the ass. People would rage no matter what you would put in.
Making a different lineup for campaign and single/multiplayer is the halfway option between H5 HoF heaven and H4. The problem here is that the player feels like he/she has been cheated out of a full alternative lineup H4 style by only allowing 1 extra unit for 1 faction out of the 6+ factions available.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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dragon
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 04:41 PM |
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Edited by dragon at 16:47, 28 Sep 2014.
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To all against female units in game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_post-classical_warfare#Timeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_early_modern_warfare#Timeline_of_women_in_warfare_in_the_early_modern_era_worldwide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_warfare_and_the_military_in_the_19th_century
Read first before posting that there is no place for female warriors in game
Even if there are no women warriors through history, this is fantasy world for God's sake
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 04:48 PM |
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fuChris said:
It doesn't matter which duchy we are playing at the moment. The unicorn duchy is named after the Pristine Unicorn that is sacred to Elrath. But it was already in H5 sylvan. The stag duchy has probably a similar relationship with the Sun Deer. But both of these would be the cheap way to introduce "new" units since both of these are sylvan units so we are left with either the wolf or the griffin or both. But other than these two, coming up with truly original creatures is a pain in the ass. People would rage no matter what you would put in.
Difference is that while Unicorn has been in Sylvan in many (all!) proper Heroes games, the Deer is a new unit that never made an appearance in a proper Heroes game before. That is why I would suggest the Deer in Haven (and the Unicorn in Sylvan!) although ironically, if Fury does win the vote, we should champion the opposite idea. Remember that Griffin has appeared both in Sylvan and even in "Dungeon" (Warlock) back in the days, yet has made the transition into Haven without a problem.
fuChris said:
Making a different lineup for campaign and single/multiplayer is the halfway option between H5 HoF heaven and H4. The problem here is that the player feels like he/she has been cheated out of a full alternative lineup H4 style by only allowing 1 extra unit for 1 faction out of the 6+ factions available.
I can't quite read from your post whether you are aware, but if not, do notice that we are getting a different line-up between campaign and regular games in H7 Haven, because we have been told that Griffin will appear as a campaign-only creature. Which is sort of the upside-down solution for me, in my mind it makes more sense to make it the other way around: If the Griffin-less line-up is so important for the campaign story-line, take the Griffin out of the campaign, not the regular game. But at least with Griffin being present in game, I have good hopes we'll be able to mod it back in.
dragon said:
To all against female units in game ...
Now I know I'm putting myself into the bad company by replying to this because you seem to assume that everybody speaking against the Justicar is against any female unit in the game, which is not the case (which you can read also above). Myself, I'm not against female units in the game, I just don't see them fit well in Haven for reasons argued above. But when that's said, looking through the post-classical entries, each and every one of them mentions individual female characters who has "led and army" or "raised an army" or "taken command" etc. which is why I say: Female heroes = perfectly fine, but whole regiments of female units is just something that existed in medieval Europe.
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What will happen now?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2014 05:15 PM |
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Let's not forget that the unit apperances are merely symbolic,
I'm sure there are scantily clad male pixies flying about.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 05:23 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 17:24, 28 Sep 2014.
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alcibiades said:
fuChris said:
Making a different lineup for campaign and single/multiplayer is the halfway option between H5 HoF heaven and H4. The problem here is that the player feels like he/she has been cheated out of a full alternative lineup H4 style by only allowing 1 extra unit for 1 faction out of the 6+ factions available.
I can't quite read from your post whether you are aware, but if not, do notice that we are getting a different line-up between campaign and regular games in H7 Haven, because we have been told that Griffin will appear as a campaign-only creature. Which is sort of the upside-down solution for me, in my mind it makes more sense to make it the other way around: If the Griffin-less line-up is so important for the campaign story-line, take the Griffin out of the campaign, not the regular game. But at least with Griffin being present in game, I have good hopes we'll be able to mod it back in.
I AM aware of the different lineup and I DO feel cheated. I would have no problems if the griffin was a neutral this time, but the fact that it gets included into the town is the problem. This will raise expectations for people who will play the campaign but will be unable to play them outside of it. Again people will feel cheated out of something they should have.
This would ofcourse not be a problem if we would get the 4-5 choices for both core and elite and not just the champion creature and then get to chose ingame which units we would want to use. With DoC Ubi has extended the number of possible units in the lore so it shouldn't pose a problem(ofcourse in heavens case all of these would still be human).
You would think that not getting alternative upgrades or infact the full roster of all the 9 towns would mean that they could do this and still make a relatively balanced vanilla game but Ubi have likely shat themselves after H6 and are probably in the process of overbalancing the game so they can finally say that they created something that has a longer multiplayer lifecycle than an ant.
But I digress. I my opinion the Justicar is a perfectly fine concept partly due to the fact that coming up with non-human creatures for heaven is hard as balls. If you think you can name some other than the previously discussed unicorn/deer then please do becouse I am genuinely interested.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 05:33 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Difference is that while Unicorn has been in Sylvan in many (all!) proper Heroes games, the Deer is a new unit that never made an appearance in a proper Heroes game before. That is why I would suggest the Deer in Haven (and the Unicorn in Sylvan!) although ironically, if Fury does win the vote, we should champion the opposite idea. Remember that Griffin has appeared both in Sylvan and even in "Dungeon" (Warlock) back in the days, yet has made the transition into Haven without a problem.
Gah. Have I mentioned how much I hate the "No true Scotsman" Argument?
However, without that, I can see your reasoning for the Deer and Unicorn.
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I can't quite read from your post whether you are aware, but if not, do notice that we are getting a different line-up between campaign and regular games in H7 Haven, because we have been told that Griffin will appear as a campaign-only creature. Which is sort of the upside-down solution for me, in my mind it makes more sense to make it the other way around: If the Griffin-less line-up is so important for the campaign story-line, take the Griffin out of the campaign, not the regular game. But at least with Griffin being present in game, I have good hopes we'll be able to mod it back in.
Yes, we are getting a different line up. For the Griffin Duke. Who'll only be playing for 2ish missions. Whereas the Wolf Duke we will be playing as the predominately Haven campaign. So, it makes sense for the predominant line up to be the multiplayer one, since most people would have played that campaign rather than the epilogue (unless Griffins appear in the intro campaign of sorts, in which case they might be even.)
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Now I know I'm putting myself into the bad company by replying to this because you seem to assume that everybody speaking against the Justicar is against any female unit in the game, which is not the case (which you can read also above). Myself, I'm not against female units in the game, I just don't see them fit well in Haven for reasons argued above. But when that's said, looking through the post-classical entries, each and every one of them mentions individual female characters who has "led and army" or "raised an army" or "taken command" etc. which is why I say: Female heroes = perfectly fine, but whole regiments of female units is just something that existed in medieval Europe.
True, in the real world, human women on earth have been in predominately leadership roles when it comes to warfare. That said, human women in a fantasy world with magic and demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth should very well need to take up arms, because their world is filled with demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth. Even if human women population in the fantasy world is proportional to our real-world, that's roughly 51% of humans who are just sitting around the house. Maybe 50%, since women seem to have leadership roles, but I doubt that fits a whole 1%. Furthermore, not all 49% of humans that are male can fight. Old men and children couldn't fight either.
Either way, this is a fantastical world filled with fantasy elements. If you seem to think human females in a fantasy world shouldn't fight in such a world because human females haven't been doing so in our real world, then would you say the idea of women fighting is a fantasy?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 05:38 PM |
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fuChris said:
... partly due to the fact that coming up with non-human creatures for heaven is hard as balls. If you think you can name some other than the previously discussed unicorn/deer then please do becouse I am genuinely interested.
Granted! Apart from the trivial ones (Gold Dragon ...) there are just not a lot of obvious options.
Btw. my feelings towards this female fighter/whatever she will be would have been much warmer if she had been a Valkyrie. But obviously they saved the Valkyrie for Fortress which has the norse theme, so they've locked themselves out of that opportunity.
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What will happen now?
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dragon
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 05:42 PM |
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well said Protolisk
Not all of this women I posted were leaders there were a lot of fighters too, and do you mean that in real world leaders just were standing and doing nothing, they were also participating in fight
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 05:44 PM |
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Protolisk said:
True, in the real world, human women on earth have been in predominately leadership roles when it comes to warfare. That said, human women in a fantasy world with magic and demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth should very well need to take up arms, because their world is filled with demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth. Even if human women population in the fantasy world is proportional to our real-world, that's roughly 51% of humans who are just sitting around the house. Maybe 50%, since women seem to have leadership roles, but I doubt that fits a whole 1%. Furthermore, not all 49% of humans that are male can fight. Old men and children couldn't fight either.
Either way, this is a fantastical world filled with fantasy elements. If you seem to think human females in a fantasy world shouldn't fight in such a world because human females haven't been doing so in our real world, then would you say the idea of women fighting is a fantasy?
Plus lets not forget that us humans don't have natural enemies. In fantasy worlds there are forces whose intention is to completely erase civilizations on a global scale.(human-inferno, wizard-necromancer, elf-darkelf) This necessitates that the whole population be ready to fight.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 05:46 PM |
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fuChris said:
Protolisk said:
True, in the real world, human women on earth have been in predominately leadership roles when it comes to warfare. That said, human women in a fantasy world with magic and demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth should very well need to take up arms, because their world is filled with demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth. Even if human women population in the fantasy world is proportional to our real-world, that's roughly 51% of humans who are just sitting around the house. Maybe 50%, since women seem to have leadership roles, but I doubt that fits a whole 1%. Furthermore, not all 49% of humans that are male can fight. Old men and children couldn't fight either.
Either way, this is a fantastical world filled with fantasy elements. If you seem to think human females in a fantasy world shouldn't fight in such a world because human females haven't been doing so in our real world, then would you say the idea of women fighting is a fantasy?
Plus lets not forget that us humans don't have natural enemies. In fantasy worlds there are forces whose intention is to completely erase civilizations on a global scale.(human-inferno, wizard-necromancer, elf-darkelf) This necessitates that the whole population be ready to fight.
That's kind of what I was going for, but you put it more eloquently.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 05:59 PM |
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Protolisk said:
True, in the real world, human women on earth have been in predominately leadership roles when it comes to warfare. That said, human women in a fantasy world with magic and demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth should very well need to take up arms, because their world is filled with demons and dragons and skeletons and so forth. Even if human women population in the fantasy world is proportional to our real-world, that's roughly 51% of humans who are just sitting around the house. Maybe 50%, since women seem to have leadership roles, but I doubt that fits a whole 1%. Furthermore, not all 49% of humans that are male can fight. Old men and children couldn't fight either.
Either way, this is a fantastical world filled with fantasy elements. If you seem to think human females in a fantasy world shouldn't fight in such a world because human females haven't been doing so in our real world, then would you say the idea of women fighting is a fantasy?
I'm perfectly aware that it's possible in a fantasy world, but that's not the same that it should be done. Again, I would like to repeat what I said also earlier, it's not because I'm against female warriors, but I think when each and every faction gets a female unit "just because" it both becomes repetitive and trivial. I found it much more interesting when we had certain factions where the female element was a defining feature of the faction - not because there weren't females in the other races, but because it then illustrated a different structuring of society. Now instead we get this uniform gray mass where all factions are the same.
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What will happen now?
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 06:06 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 18:07, 28 Sep 2014.
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We get them becouse the marketing department desperately tries to grab hold of the female gamers.
It can't be long now untill we get a full amazon faction. Not that it will get problemms from me. Untill now we have european humans and elves, arabic wizards, norse dwarves, mediterranean orcs and asian sanctuary. Only time untill we get some african and american equivalent factions.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 06:10 PM |
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Let's take H5 for an example. Stronghold- Shama- female caster, Dungeon- Matriachs- female shooter and caster, Inferno- Succubuss- Female shooter.
H6- Sanctuary- Spring Spirt/Mizukami/Snow Maiden/Yuki-Ona, Succubus- female shooter, Haven- Maiden- support and healing unit, Necropolis- Ghosts- meelee unit and many more.
It actually feels like Ubisoft is afraid of bad critics from female audience so they put a female in almost every town.
But it's damn repetitive.
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What makes a King? Some say it is a birthright, while others call it a destiny.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
