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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 28, 2014 07:56 PM |
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Stormcaller said:
Oh the wtf look on haven's fans...... priceless.
Considering the Warhammer inspiration of Ashan, I wouldn't be surprised if it really happened.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 28, 2014 07:56 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Adding thrones or cherubs instead of normal angels would spice things up and make Haven more interesting, even if they look strange
+1000
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 08:00 PM |
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Oh no, not the WH40K cherubs. Those things are... no.
What is that lion-angel? What is it from, exactly?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 08:00 PM |
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Protolisk said:
But, wow, saying that it "fills a unique spot" as a female is just as sexist as saying males are the norm, and females are *special*. Females are normal too. Actually, they are more normal, as they tend to have more of a population percentage than males. It's not a "role" to be female. Women are women.
Sorry but I just completely disagree, there's nothing sexistic in stating that male are the norm when in comes to military units if you look over the history of human civilization, I dare say over the entire world, and at least within Europe that's an unquestionable fact. There's nothing normative in this discussion, I'm just stating how it has been through history.
But one of the points that I was trying to, and obviously fails to, get through is that I see the unit models as a representation - or perhaps better, reflection - of the societies they come from. But it's not like the unit graphics is a true depiction of the actual people in the army. Look at the H5 swordsman, he had brown hair. That doesn't mean that each and every man in the swordsman division has brown hair, and that everyone who's blond or redhaired gets turned away - the unit graphics is just a representation of an archetype of the unit. Within a group of swordsmen, I imagine there'll be some with both dark, white and red hair, some will be tall, others will be short, etc. Some might even be female, for all we know, and for all I care. The point here is that I don't pay attention to those details in the model because they fit with the archetype I would suspect from the type of society it represents.
But once you start to make a unit and specifically state that "this devision consists of females" and give it a female model, suddenly you start to go against what was the norm in the real world equivalent of what this faction represents. And there's nothing wrong in that in itself, they can go against the norms all they want, but the question that inevitably rises when they do is: Why do they feel the need to specifically talk about the gender of the unit? And when we suddenly get a unit here which explicitly says that it's female and has a female model, does that mean there can't be any female crossbowmen? Or any female Cuirassiers?
The way I see it, by pulling a move like this, they themselves put an extreme focus on the whole gender thing which wasn't there before. For instance in Heroes 3, we had both male and female units within each hero class, telling me there was no gender preference (not only male might heroes, and only female magic heroes, for instance). So what is the point that they want to make - that Ashan/Haven society is one where the genders are more even than in European medieval ages? Ok, fair enough, no harm in that. Do they want to make such a statement out of political correctness? Or to please a target audience? I don't know, for me it feels a bit contrived, because if you want to send the message of women empowerment, I think it came much more clearly through by having a whole race where the entire society was maternal which was cool (although dressing those ladies up in latex and net stockings and I don't know what probably wasn't helpful in that direction). For me, it puts a distance between game world and real world society which I think is contrived and which distances me from the universe they are trying to create, but certainly, they can't please everybody with every detail.
____________
What will happen now?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 28, 2014 08:01 PM |
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Stormcaller said:
Oh the wtf look on haven's fans...... priceless.
Except that's not a Jude-Chritstian Cherubim, this is
And here you can see both Thrones and Cherubs
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 28, 2014 08:02 PM |
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Protolisk said:
What is that lion-angel? What is it from, exactly?
Some random image on the internet. Of course as it is depicted here wouldn't fit, but tweak the idea to fit a medieval Haven, I must say I'm seduced by the idea !
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 08:02 PM |
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I Hope that Magic Defense attribute will be there and they not just returning to the original attack, defense, Spell Power, Knowledge system.
Also i liked Heroes 4 spell system, and also Heroes 5, they should return to 4 ot 5 spell system with some upradge!  .
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 28, 2014 08:08 PM |
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Personally I hope they make each primary atribute important. Knowledge becomes so useless after a certain time ...
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 08:29 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Sorry but I just completely disagree, there's nothing sexistic in stating that male are the norm when in comes to military units if you look over the history of human civilization, I dare say over the entire world, and at least within Europe that's an unquestionable fact. There's nothing normative in this discussion, I'm just stating how it has been through history.
Again, Ashan, not Earth. Different world with different rules, and a way different history.
alcibiades said:
But one of the points that I was trying to, and obviously fails to, get through is that I see the unit models as a representation - or perhaps better, reflection - of the societies they come from. But it's not like the unit graphics is a true depiction of the actual people in the army. Look at the H5 swordsman, he had brown hair. That doesn't mean that each and every man in the swordsman division has brown hair, and that everyone who's blond or redhaired gets turned away - the unit graphics is just a representation of an archetype of the unit. Within a group of swordsmen, I imagine there'll be some with both dark, white and red hair, some will be tall, others will be short, etc. Some might even be female, for all we know, and for all I care. The point here is that I don't pay attention to those details in the model because they fit with the archetype I would suspect from the type of society it represents.
My problem is that you said:
alcibiades said:
the unit doesn't seem to fill any unique spot (apart from its gender)
Which implies that a unique role it does fill is being female. Which is why I said being female isn't a "role". It's just as simple and base as being brown eyed or having blond hair.
Like you said, this works both ways. Maybe there were female "Footmen" in H5, just as there could have been brunet or blond men. We wouldn't have known, true. Even more, you say it could help female empowerment or whatever. That sort of is exactly Irina's storyline, and Justicars are part of her ideology that resulted from that storyline. Further more, these Justicars aren't in robes (Like the sisters) or in the fishnet stockings (like the witches of Dungeon H5) or even the weird midriff armor of the Emerald Warriors. They have full armor, not revealing, and are wearing helmets. They actually are being fairly realistic when it comes to them, "except" that the person behind the hood is a girl. It isn't so much as a "power fantasy" as it is "women=men". Yes, that's a feminist idea. However, Irina has been pretty feminist. It only makes sense that a duchy that is now solely related to her would start to follow in her footsteps.
alcibiades said:
But once you start to make a unit and specifically state that "this devision consists of females" and give it a female model, suddenly you start to go against what was the norm in the real world equivalent of what this faction represents. And there's nothing wrong in that in itself, they can go against the norms all they want, but the question that inevitably rises when they do is: Why do they feel the need to specifically talk about the gender of the unit? And when we suddenly get a unit here which explicitly says that it's female and has a female model, does that mean there can't be any female crossbowmen? Or any female Cuirassiers?
The way I see it, by pulling a move like this, they themselves put an extreme focus on the whole gender thing which wasn't there before. For instance in Heroes 3, we had both male and female units within each hero class, telling me there was no gender preference (not only male might heroes, and only female magic heroes, for instance). So what is the point that they want to make - that Ashan/Haven society is one where the genders are more even than in European medieval ages? Ok, fair enough, no harm in that. Do they want to make such a statement out of political correctness? Or to please a target audience? I don't know, for me it feels a bit contrived, because if you want to send the message of women empowerment, I think it came much more clearly through by having a whole race where the entire society was maternal which was cool (although dressing those ladies up in latex and net stockings and I don't know what probably wasn't helpful in that direction). For me, it puts a distance between game world and real world society which I think is contrived and which distances me from the universe they are trying to create, but certainly, they can't please everybody with every detail.
Yes, the difference here is that they state Guardians can be women (which other units don't state). However what it says is
Quote:
Elrathian psalms are very clear about the fact men and women are equal under the Holy Light, but in the old times Guardians of the Faith were mostly men. That is, until Irina of the Wolf started to reform her Duchy’s military…
Note how they started off mostly men in older times, and Irina changed that. Does that mean that they are now all women? That remains to be seen. But, it does mean women have a larger role when it comes to Guardians and Justicars.
The society has changed. The archetype has changed. It continues to change.
Yes, they pointed out "Hey, these are girls, and this is why." But you, among many others, are the ones saying "They should not put a girl in, the reason is bad." You have been the one to make it a problem.
There wasn't a problem before. Female heroes. Medusa. Harpies. Naga. Genies in H3, when they used to be men (the sultans still were). The Pegasus riders. The Water Elementals of H3, again, when they used to be hulking humanoids. Pixies. Those weren't Ubisoft's doing. This was NWC.
What Ubi did do is put multiple girls in Haven. Now, however, instead of it being a female only Blazing Glory (according to DoC, the men are Immaculate Glories) or a female only Sister (imagine a man being a Sister) as well as the female Serephim, it is a - singular - lonely - sole unit that is shown to be a girl, and yet can be more androgynous, and although it is a girl for the model, it doesn't need to be only girls. Yet this is a problem for you?
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 08:31 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Sandro400 said:
Complain about female gargoyles.
now that's smth to complain about! hw could they do this to the gargoyles?????? it's not a gargoyle anymore. the boobies are ok but that serene face makes it look like a flying golem. that's not a gargoyle!!
Woah woah woah! What's wrong with female gargoyles? I like the idea - makes them seem like "aw man, it sucks that the harpies left us" "what if we build new ones?" "BRILLIANT!" to me.
Also, "serene face"? From what I've seen of the leaked images, their faces seem more "death glare" than "serene".
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2014 08:37 PM |
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alcibiades said:
For me, it puts a distance between game world and real world society which I think is contrived and which distances me from the universe they are trying to create
Kind of like how everyone in Ashan are super rich and can afford intricate intricate armor and skyscraper temples.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted September 28, 2014 08:41 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Woah woah woah! What's wrong with female gargoyles? I like the idea - makes them seem like "aw man, it sucks that the harpies left us" "what if we build new ones?" "BRILLIANT!" to me.
Also, "serene face"? From what I've seen of the leaked images, their faces seem more "death glare" than "serene".
First of all, I want to know who had the idea to make female death-machines. Both in our world and in Ashan. Gargoyles (for me) were always genderless. In DoC we have great Gargoyles (although one of them wear female armor...)
And on top of that. I simply don't like the design. Really. It doesn't fit my tastes completely.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 08:47 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
First of all, I want to know who had the idea to make female death-machines.
Nature, most likely. Hyenas and lions. Black Widows. Creatures of that sort. Heck, Praying Mantises to their own specie.
Sandro400 said:
Gargoyles (for me) were always genderless. In DoC we have great Gargoyles (although one of them wear female armor...)
And on top of that. I simply don't like the design. Really. It doesn't fit my tastes completely.
Gargoyles should be pretty monstrous. DoC, even with the ones with breasts and such, still look pretty monstrous. The H7 ones are starting to look more humanoid and "pretty", which is the opposite of what Gargoyles should be.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 08:49 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Again, Ashan, not Earth. Different world with different rules, and a way different history.
(...)
There wasn't a problem before. Female heroes. Medusa. Harpies. Naga. Genies in H3, when they used to be men (the sultans still were). The Pegasus riders. The Water Elementals of H3, again, when they used to be hulking humanoids. Pixies. Those weren't Ubisoft's doing. This was NWC.
Just to sort of put an end to this discussion, two points:
1) Yes, Ashan is not Earth, but what makes a fantasy world compelling (for me) is that I can see parallels between the fantasy world and real world. They need to overlap somewhere, so to speak, to create an interference that allows me to be pulled in. Haven for me is that link, because I imagine that this is how human society was back in the days. That is why, for me at least, it is important to have a certain element of synergy between fantasy and realism. Not that there can't be differences, but they should be there to fill the gaps where realism ends (Angels and Griffins for instance).
2) AGAIN you make it sound like I'm talking against female units or even female heroes (which is the complete opposite of what I've been doing). I don't have a problem with female units. At all. Neither when it comes to mythological creatures (Medusas, Nagas, Harpies) nor when it comes to humanoids (Matriarchs, Furys, etc.). But these units are made female because they have a mythological link, or because they represents aspects of the respective societies.
So when they make a female Haven human unit, for me it sends a message that they are distancing themselves from medieval human society. They are at their full right to do that, but I'm just saying that for me, that diminishes the overlap between fantasy world and real world and thus makes it less easy for me to become engaged in it.
____________
What will happen now?
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 28, 2014 08:53 PM |
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War-overlord said:
There is no comparing the impact of units to the impact of resources.
i couldnt disagree more - one unit in one faction hardly has anywhere near the impact on the games character that the resources utilized by all the factions do.
War-overlord said:
...
And I consider the use in magic a cop-out.
Heroes of Might and What?
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 08:54 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Gargoyles should be pretty monstrous. DoC, even with the ones with breasts and such, still look pretty monstrous. The H7 ones are starting to look more humanoid and "pretty", which is the opposite of what Gargoyles should be.
If we wanted to get really technical, they should be squirting water out of their mouths. The decorative variants were called "grotesques". As far as I'm concerned, they are so far removed from their real-life counterpart that there is no "should" appearance.
*shrug* Different strokes for different folks. So far, I like H7 design.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 09:00 PM |
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alcibiades said:
So when they make a female Haven human unit, for me it sends a message that they are distancing themselves from medieval human society. They are at their full right to do that, but I'm just saying that for me, that diminishes the overlap between fantasy world and real world and thus makes it less easy for me to become engaged in it.
Okay. I feel like they are keeping in line with realism enough, so much so that they can be both "our medieval" and "our current culture" mixed in the fantasy setting. I feel there is more a connection, myself. I feel more engaged in it, for precisely this reason.
It is fair you feel differently. Let us end this, then.
Kimarous said:
Protolisk said:
Gargoyles should be pretty monstrous. DoC, even with the ones with breasts and such, still look pretty monstrous. The H7 ones are starting to look more humanoid and "pretty", which is the opposite of what Gargoyles should be.
If we wanted to get really technical, they should be squirting water out of their mouths. The decorative variants were called "grotesques". As far as I'm concerned, they are so far removed from their real-life counterpart that there is no "should" appearance.
*shrug* Different strokes for different folks. So far, I like H7 design.
True, Gargoyles of our world are more water spouts than anything, being decorative as well. I suppose they are removed enough.
I will take our new feminine forms over the H5 block gargoyles, though.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 28, 2014 09:07 PM |
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yogi said:
i couldnt disagree more - one unit in one faction hardly has anywhere near the impact on the games character that the resources utilized by all the factions do.
Heroes of Might and What?
Are you purposefully misinterpreting me?
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2014 09:10 PM |
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alcibiades said:
So when they make a female Haven human unit, for me it sends a message that they are distancing themselves from medieval human society.
They already do that with dragon worship and impossible architecture.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted September 28, 2014 09:14 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Nature, most likely. Hyenas and lions. Black Widows. Creatures of that sort. Heck, Praying Mantises to their own specie.
Gargoyles should be pretty monstrous. DoC, even with the ones with breasts and such, still look pretty monstrous. The H7 ones are starting to look more humanoid and "pretty", which is the opposite of what Gargoyles should be.
You haven't understood me. What I meant is that who had the idea to create female robots-terminators with THIS design.
On that I agree, DoC has some badass artworks.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
