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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 06:12 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I'm perfectly aware that it's possible in a fantasy world, but that's not the same that it should be done. Again, I would like to repeat what I said also earlier, it's not because I'm against female warriors, but I think when each and every faction gets a female unit "just because" it both becomes repetitive and trivial. I found it much more interesting when we had certain factions where the female element was a defining feature of the faction - not because there weren't females in the other races, but because it then illustrated a different structuring of society. Now instead we get this uniform gray mass where all factions are the same.
Again, why can't Haven have females in it? Because other races do, and therefore Haven can't?
Plus, we are also showing a different society in the form of a human civilization that had to grow and adapt in competition with Elves and Dwarves and Naga and Faceless and Angels and Demons and so forth. One that, by that very nature of having direct competition, must be different than our own.
Also, if you think it is trivial, then why does it matter so much to you that they are in? You know what else is repetitive and trivial? Having 100% dudes "just because". Trying to use that as an argument is just as silly as saying women as a unit is silly. It's not like the whole faction is women, or that women make up a core part of the army. they are a specialist unit in the elite tier. Why is that so bad? If they were male Justicars, would this change much of anything?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 28, 2014 06:17 PM |
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Quote:
Why is that so bad? If they were male Justicars, would this change much of anything?
Still a human with a sword.
Seriously people, this is a video game, we don't need to have as much males and females in every faction, it doesn't make sense. We need cool units, I don't see the point of these "feminism" discussions
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 06:18 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Again, why can't Haven have females in it? Because other races do, and therefore Haven can't?
I won't use the word "can't", but the reasons why I think it's a bad idea is because:
1) Haven is anchored in medieval European culture [as I see it], and in medieval European culture, women didn't constitute and major part of the fighting force. Therefore it breaks immersion for me.
2) It makes Haven identical to all the other factions, which makes game less diverse and hence less interesting in my eyes.
There's nothing that says that they "can't" have it, but for me it's a lose/lose situation, it BOTH break my immersion and it ALSO makes the factions less diverse. Now I'm perfectly accepting the fact that others can see things in a different light, but that's why in my optics it's a bad idea.
It certainly doesn't help that, on top of above, the unit doesn't seem to fill any unique spot (apart from its gender) because we both have other melee human units and other human units equipped with swords. If that had at least been the case, I could see a point in doing it even in spite of above (a bit like how neither Angels nor Griffins played a major part in medieval European warfare, but they fill roles here that human units couldn't do).
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What will happen now?
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 06:25 PM |
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Still, they have a sweet design tho. I hope they get more than just assault and cleave abilities, or shield allies.
Perhaps, magic damp akin to unicorns?
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What makes a King? Some say it is a birthright, while others call it a destiny.
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 06:33 PM |
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I honestly don't see the problem here from a lore standpoint considering Irina of all people took control of the wolf duchy. Plus she was a might hero(check H6 website) they took after her so to speak. Plus I won't comment on gameplay considering we have no idea what she does so I can't comment on that.
Right now? She looks cool so I am interested in what she does and that's enough for me.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted September 28, 2014 06:41 PM |
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Galaad said:
alcibiades said:
More customizability = more satisfied players. For instance: Random skills yes/no [ ].  
100% yes.
Agree 100% random skills for me too.
@Alci -> nice avatar change
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 28, 2014 06:44 PM |
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Am I the only one that doesn't want angels to be humanoid?
I mean, wouldn't you be surprised if instead they came up with something like this?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 28, 2014 06:45 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I won't use the word "can't", but the reasons why I think it's a bad idea is because:
1) Haven is anchored in medieval European culture [as I see it], and in medieval European culture, women didn't constitute and major part of the fighting force. Therefore it breaks immersion for me.
2) It makes Haven identical to all the other factions, which makes game less diverse and hence less interesting in my eyes.
There's nothing that says that they "can't" have it, but for me it's a lose/lose situation, it BOTH break my immersion and it ALSO makes the factions less diverse. Now I'm perfectly accepting the fact that others can see things in a different light, but that's why in my optics it's a bad idea.
It certainly doesn't help that, on top of above, the unit doesn't seem to fill any unique spot (apart from its gender) because we both have other melee human units and other human units equipped with swords. If that had at least been the case, I could see a point in doing it even in spite of above (a bit like how neither Angels nor Griffins played a major part in medieval European warfare, but they fill roles here that human units couldn't do).
well look, much as I often agree with you that arbitrary Ashan decisions suck, this argument is not really that cogent in the end,
if you're willing to accept griffins, or light magic, or angels from on high, or yes, even female warrior heroes who have been in all 6 games, you clearly understand that it's not *exactly* Medieval Europe,
it's been bending rules all along, and thus it should be no big deal that a few of the warrior classes are represented by women
this lust for nothing but men in certain factions is frankly a little uncomfortable and just strikes me as first world problems
as far as I can see, everyone arguing for it is a man, I mean you all have your majority of men in the games to relate to and always have, but why not try to think about it from a woman's perspective and imagine whether they might prefer a balance to a bias
I long for the day when people completely stop caring whether a certain unit is represented by a male or female, I mean it's really no more meaningful than questioning people's eye color for heaven's sake
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 06:50 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Protolisk said:
Again, why can't Haven have females in it? Because other races do, and therefore Haven can't?
I won't use the word "can't", but the reasons why I think it's a bad idea is because:
1) Haven is anchored in medieval European culture [as I see it], and in medieval European culture, women didn't constitute and major part of the fighting force. Therefore it breaks immersion for me.
2) It makes Haven identical to all the other factions, which makes game less diverse and hence less interesting in my eyes.
There's nothing that says that they "can't" have it, but for me it's a lose/lose situation, it BOTH break my immersion and it ALSO makes the factions less diverse. Now I'm perfectly accepting the fact that others can see things in a different light, but that's why in my optics it's a bad idea.
It certainly doesn't help that, on top of above, the unit doesn't seem to fill any unique spot (apart from its gender) because we both have other melee human units and other human units equipped with swords. If that had at least been the case, I could see a point in doing it even in spite of above (a bit like how neither Angels nor Griffins played a major part in medieval European warfare, but they fill roles here that human units couldn't do).
I do agree that without any listed abilities, its role may not be so effective. But, otherwise, I don't mind.
And I can agree that you may have a problem with immersion, and that's fine. I personally don't. We cancel each other out, in that manner. Ubi can't appeal to the both of us.
But, wow, saying that it "fills a unique spot" as a female is just as sexist as saying males are the norm, and females are *special*. Females are normal too. Actually, they are more normal, as they tend to have more of a population percentage than males. It's not a "role" to be female. Women are women.
If anything, they might fit a "religious magic" role that our real world medieval Europe couldn't possibly fit, so there goes that argument too.
You see a sole gender as diversity? That's as diverse as a feather is heavy. Among different races, you could show how there are more women in more mundane or powerful positions. Dungeon had 2 female dark elves units in H5, and 2 male dark elf (at least I believe the lizard riders were male) where there was always a woman above the male (Scout was outclassed by a melee Fury, and the rider, even with a lizard mount, was outclassed by the magic-tossing Matriarch.). Haven, right now, will have 5 male humans to 1 female human, with 2 males weaker than the girl, 2 equal, and 1 better. Does that sound "identical" to you? Or is the simple use of "they have girls in their army!" identical, even though the percentages are vastly different?
Females are normal. Make them so.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 06:58 PM |
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verriker said:
I long for the day when people completely stop caring whether a certain unit is represented by a male or female, I mean it's really no more meaningful than questioning people's eye color for heaven's sake
That will never happen. People generally are too invested in either being male or female.
It's the same problem with the Xbox/PS or Iphone/any other phone one religion/any other religion debate. If you buy/are one of them then you are mentally/monetarily invested in it thus thus convincing yourself that you made the right choice will strengthen the opinion you once had even if facts show no advantade to either side. But that is part of the human condition.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 28, 2014 07:05 PM |
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fuChris said:
That will never happen. People generally are too invested in either being male or female.
It's the same problem with the Xbox/PS or Iphone/any other phone one religion/any other religion debate. If you buy/are one of them then you are mentally/monetarily invested in it thus thus convincing yourself that you made the right choice will strengthen the opinion you once had even if facts show no advantade to either side. But that is part of the human condition.
well I do genuinely believe that one day the majority of people will look at each other and not fixate on a gender, or a sex, or a skin color, or a hair color, or an eye color, but instead see a fellow person and treat them as perfect equals in principle,
but it will be clearly be long after I'm dead judging from this thread lol
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 28, 2014 07:06 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I agree, it IS only 1 unit, and like I said, it's not the be-all and end-all of Haven, but still, we all know how important the units are in the line-ups, just look at the Sylvan thread that's gone on for what, 70+ pages, basically discussing whether the Phoenix, Unicorn or whatever is the most important unit for Sylvan.
My gripes with the Justicar is not the sole fact that she's female, that is just one of many things I dislike by the unit. To try to summarize the reasons I dislike it:
1) We already have 5 human units, do we need yet another?
2a) We already have a human unit armed with a sword (and another melee human unit in the core), do we need yet another?
2b) If she's actually a shooter, what will that make of the priest, will he become a melee unit instead (effectively duplicating 2a) or will he become a support unit without ranged attack (eliminating the tactical element of how to apply priest and thus making game less interesting)?
3) I think there's plenty of room to depict "capable women" in form of female units heroes.
4) In-game references to a game I found horrible is not enough to justify its presence for me (couldn't care less about legacy of Irina-whoever-that-is).
5) This unit has no historical or mythological roots and therefore fails to catch my interest and I fail to see why it needs to be introduced, cf. points 1-2.
So I can live with this unit, but I find it uninteresting from what I know now, I dislike the role that it will apparently fill in the game and I think the faction needed more non-human units so I don't understand that they didn't use the opportunity to use the slot for that instead.
This was a rather interesting post by you Alic. For one there the topic of Unit roles. Think Heroes need a few more roles then just DMg ealer, Support, tank, Range, interceptor. Why not experiment with themes like "Offensive support", "Tactical shielding" or "enemy restriction". Heroes VI tried something like this with Juggernouts, sentinels and Lamasu (and other units), but the bad concept of the game itself did not give an oportunity for this approach to shine.
But in Heroes VII this topic is beeing explored again. Just look at the unicorn description. It is basicall purposed as a walking magic shiel, something that is best used in formations. And again the Dryad/Ent synergy. Justicar could bu an active support. Givin bonuses to other units and having a synergy with sentinels.
The topic of exploring new unit concepts was the reason I wished for Derwishes. The idea of an active melee unit, with reduced dmg from range units and a sami range attack of her own.
It is not the image of the unit that is important, but how it fits into the game. In the end I don't care if a unit is male or female, triangle or a line.
If anything else, the Justicar reminds me of the Joan of Arc, wich I think is the main inspiration behind this unit, and as such, we could use this character as a speculation basis.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 07:18 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
This was a rather interesting post by you Alic. For one there the topic of Unit roles. Think Heroes need a few more roles then just DMg ealer, Support, tank, Range, interceptor. Why not experiment with themes like "Offensive support", "Tactical shielding" or "enemy restriction". Heroes VI tried something like this with Juggernouts, sentinels and Lamasu (and other units), but the bad concept of the game itself did not give an oportunity for this approach to shine.
But in Heroes VII this topic is beeing explored again. Just look at the unicorn description. It is basicall purposed as a walking magic shiel, something that is best used in formations. And again the Dryad/Ent synergy. Justicar could bu an active support. Givin bonuses to other units and having a synergy with sentinels.
The problem here is that if there are only 7 creature per faction. If we have so many different type of support creature then there won't be any unit left to make use of their support. The other option is to mix multiple roles into 1 creature but then you end up with a high number of skills on each creature and as far as I remember that was one of the main problems of H6, thus makeing the game unbalancable.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 28, 2014 07:27 PM |
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fuChris said:
The problem here is that if there are only 7 creature per faction. If we have so many different type of support creature then there won't be any unit left to make use of their support. The other option is to mix multiple roles into 1 creature but then you end up with a high number of skills on each creature and as far as I remember that was one of the main problems of H6, thus makeing the game unbalancable.
True. And I also believe the best time of the game was H2/3 where very few creatures had any special abilities at all.
But a single unit in a factions lineup could work and bring some strategic depth.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2014 07:30 PM |
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Neraus said:
I mean, wouldn't you be surprised if instead they came up with something like this?
Not really, because IMO that looks not at all good.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 07:37 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Neraus said:
I mean, wouldn't you be surprised if instead they came up with something like this?
Not really, because IMO that looks not at all good.
Well, it'd be a surprise, but not a good one.
Though the many different forms of angels in the Bible and other texts are interesting, they would look very, very strange. For instance, one account of a Cherub is not the "baby" angel most seem to think, but instead a lion/bull/eagle/human headed monstrosity of an image, with wings. Plus those weird "wheel within wheel" angels.
Angels can stay as the "Human form, with wings", to me.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 28, 2014 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
Though the many different forms of angels in the Bible and other texts are interesting, they would look very, very strange. For instance, one account of a Cherub is not the "baby" angel most seem to think, but instead a lion/bull/eagle/human headed monstrosity of an image, with wings. Plus those weird "wheel within wheel" angels.
Adding thrones or cherubs instead of normal angels would spice things up and make Haven more interesting, even if they look strange
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 28, 2014 07:49 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
I am all for Werewolves in Ashan as I really like them, but they don't belong to Haven at all.
We were already talking about this topic, Stevie was the one to suggest it first(I think) but Werewolves are beasts that cannot be tamed, they are also eating humans and are look upon as something cursed and unholy.
And they can't possible be in the same lineup as Angels and Chaplains.
Agree, Werewolves in Haven makes no sense. Wolf themed units they do tho (like Swordbearer)
Sandro400 said:
My 2 cents.
Justicars in DoC are magic shooters despite wielding swords (they have a high counterattack). So stop judging this unit until you get full description.
And you have only 1 female unit in Haven. Stop complaining.
100% this. Just because they have a sword doesn't mean that they are plain damage dealers. I still dislike "another swordman...well, woman", but it can still be an interesting addition
And seeing people complaining of having a single female unit in Haven is such a joke. With what we've seen so far, the number of female units seems to be reasonable..
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 07:50 PM |
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Oh the wtf look on haven's fans...... priceless.
____________
What makes a King? Some say it is a birthright, while others call it a destiny.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 07:51 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
Though the many different forms of angels in the Bible and other texts are interesting, they would look very, very strange. For instance, one account of a Cherub is not the "baby" angel most seem to think, but instead a lion/bull/eagle/human headed monstrosity of an image, with wings. Plus those weird "wheel within wheel" angels.
Adding thrones or cherubs instead of normal angels would spice things up and make Haven more interesting, even if they look strange
True. Having the strangeness would be unique (not many games go this route, so it would be a breath of fresh air).
However, I feel it would be too strange. At least in Ashan, Angels are pretty much Humans+wings with some light magic being innate. They aren't Judeo-christian. It would be like if Humans were not only our normal 2 armed 2 legged I headed forms, but every so often you had one with tentacles and compound eyes. Sure, it'd be interesting, but not for the best.
In, say, the old universe, the Angels were basically aliens too, right? Then there, we could have some more abstract Angel forms. They may not be Judeo-christian, but they can get away with it a bit more with that stance.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
