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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 29, 2015 06:55 PM |
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Quote:
If all we had to worry about was pleasing Heroes fans exclusively, our job would be easier
Isn't that the objective? To please the customers in order to sell the product?  If people like the game they will tell their friends to buy it and so on, you get profit, that's the main objective of business. Don't tell me that you have to worry about violating copyright or such, as h5 Necropolis had far less in common with WH than the H6/H7 one 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 29, 2015 06:57 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 18:59, 29 Jan 2015.
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Marzhin said:
But that's assuming that becoming skeletal is something Liches are actively seeking. Why would they want to look like skeletons -- beings they use as lowly slaves? Apart from "because some fans find it cool" or "for sexiness", I mean?
The 'becoming skeleton' part would be a natural byproduct of undeath vs. time.
Thus in some ways it could be seen as a badge of honor, a "see how long I've managed to cheat death" kinda deal.
Of course these guys are a right bunch of tools who believe "death is everlasting peace" while refusing to die.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 06:57 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
If all we had to worry about was pleasing Heroes fans exclusively, our job would be easier
Isn't that the objective? To please the customers in order to sell the product?
The keyword here was "exclusively".
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 29, 2015 07:08 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Marzhin said:
OR it is something that happened to a large number of them without them wanting it. For instance, lots of liches started decaying faster than expected when Sandro placed his Void curse on the Mother Namtaru for instance.
H5 Liches explained by one line of text. 
Though woudn't Liches naturally degrade over time?
NoNoNo! That would recreate the Lamassu problem. Lamassu are already supposed to have died out at this point in the timeline. They are getting one last use out of them and nothing else. I don't know how it will be handled after H7 and whether they will be included afterwards but dropping the lich from the lineup is not an option.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 29, 2015 07:08 PM |
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Just wondering if in a future Heroes game we will see a Void Necropolis with skeletal liches, is there any chance to introduce it?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:11 PM |
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Ok. I can understand that they are not skeletal, and im ok with that, as well as general look (even tho im in minority it seems). But what is lore justification that they levitate?
If magic, then they basicaly have to maintain this levitation spell on constantly. Wouldn't it cause lack of focus when fighting and casting other spells?
Don't tell me I was right and gravity of Ashan is so low?
I can't think of a good reason to levitate. Just like there's no reason to be skeletal. Specialy if they are walkers and not flyers ... or are they? If they can actualy fly, then I'm ok with this, as it would be awsome. In fact .... please give flying Lich
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:12 PM |
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Cant Stevie just be banned? The only thing he is or was useful with is discovering the posted news before they were actually public otherwise he is just annoying.
I'm glad that so far Ubi is sticking to their work and keeping the liches like this, regardless wheter the reasons have more to do with money than artistic belief.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 29, 2015 07:15 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Well, it also helps that the Soulscars were ruling the whole of Ygg-Chall at the time of H5.
sure, but we don't have exclusively Soulscar heroes,
(in the campaign, you're always Shadowbrand, and in fact I don't think you ever even play as a Soulscar army unless that guy Agbeth was Soulscar, can't remember), so I'm the creatures and the overall faction aren't supposed to be 100% Soulscar either
therefore, you can mix and match a little to create cool armies and I doubt anybody's going to rip their hair out over it (after all, in H7, it already looks like you're going to have a Griffin duchy with all Wolf troops except the added in Griffin)
I mean seriously guys, you barely ever even rehire the same voice actors to play characters for each game, and you'll haggle about lore consistency so much like this, it's kind of crazy
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:16 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:19, 29 Jan 2015.
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@Marzhin, Liches becoming Skeletal is a side effect which they suffer in undergoing a ritual where they consume both Manticore venom and Namtaru venom which is similar to what Moander did. The Scope for them is to achieve immediate Archlichdom by triggering the moment of their death there because of consuming Manticore venom. That's arguably better than being a Lich for up to 100 years and only after it becoming an Archlich.
All that is based on the lore from Moander's bio and the lore from the transition from a Lich to Archlich in Heroes 6.
- Reason from the Necromants' POV - faster gain of Power: They achieve the Heroes 6 Archlichdom equivalent, effectively skipping the stage of Lich through triggering their preordained death right then by consuming Manticore venom and then Namtaru Venom. And if you achieve that faster and not wait decades for your preordained life to end, then you achieve the power that comes with Archlichdom faster;
- Reason from our POV: get the freaking Skeletal Liches back as it is a side effect of consuming Manticore poison and Namtaru Venom;
Problem with numbers? Why?! If that becomes common practice in stead of the old ritual, which it should because power now is better than power after 100 years from the ritual, then why would it be a problem?
Quote:
So there are two possible reasons: either there is some sort of gain related to becoming skeletal...
Becoming Skeletal is not the scope, the scope is power. Becoming Skeletal is a side effect that comes with using Manticore poison in their new ritual. And they would use Manticore poison in their new ritual because that would trigger their preordained death right then and effectively become Archliches instead of normal Liches. And we get Skeletal Liches and everyone's happy (explaining it again).
Marzhin said:
What I'm trying to say is -- the lore is adaptable, and can be changed when necessary. It has happened before, and is likely to happen again. But it needs to be done with the long-term, in-universe consequences in mind.
Then DO IT?! Come on, please, we want the Skeletal Liches back!
I'm losing my mind here.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:21 PM |
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Although using artists pics for heroes was cheap, it was kinda fun nonetheless
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Ok. I can understand that they are not skeletal, and im ok with that, as well as general look (even tho im in minority it seems). But what is lore justification that they levitate?
If magic, then they basicaly have to maintain this levitation spell on constantly. Wouldn't it cause lack of focus when fighting and casting other spells?
Don't tell me I was right and gravity of Ashan is so low?
I can't think of a good reason to levitate. Just like there's no reason to be skeletal. Specialy if they are walkers and not flyers ... or are they? If they can actualy fly, then I'm ok with this, as it would be awsome. In fact .... please give flying Lich
Do you know why mummies are kept in under boxes at controlled temperatures and moved very carefully right? While I assume the Namtaru venom gives many perks that irl cant happen, i assume that, for an embalsamed body , moving the very least possible is still for the best. Hence levitation
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 29, 2015 07:22 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
But what is lore justification that they levitate?
Maybe they have unlimited supply of Fairy dust from Tinker Bell & Co.?
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 29, 2015 07:23 PM |
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Stevie said:
..Liches becoming Skeletal is a side effect which they suffer in undergoing a ritual where they consume both Manticore venom and Namtaru venom which is similar to what Moander did. The Scope for them is to achieve immediate Archlichdom by triggering the moment of their death there because of consuming Manticore venom.
If Liches use Manticore venom to become Archliches and because of that they become skeletal shouldn't then only Archliches be skeletal? Or Im not understanding this right?
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:24 PM |
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Marzhin said:
@Stevie: you missed my point. Of course, we could find one thousand reasons why liches could become skeletons, just as we could find one thousand reasons for dragons to fart jolly leprechauns 
But that's assuming that becoming skeletal is something Liches are actively seeking. Why would they want to look like skeletons -- beings they use as lowly slaves? Apart from "because some fans find it cool" or "for sexiness", I mean? These are both great reasons (OK, the first one at least ) but should not be the only reasons
There's also the question of numbers. In an army, you're going to have dozens, if not hundreds of Liches. So whatever the reason for them to undergo this transformation into a skeleton process, it is something the majority of them do.
These are real questions, by the way, not me trying to show you are wrong or something. As I said, anything's possible. But without answering these questions, it's not going to work.
So there are two possible reasons: either there is some sort of gain related to becoming skeletal. If we go that route, which is possible, we are adding something to the lore. It shouldn't be done carelessly.
OR it is something that happened to a large number of them without them wanting it. For instance, lots of liches started decaying faster than expected when Sandro placed his Void curse on the Mother Namtaru for instance.
What I'm trying to say is -- the lore is adaptable, and can be changed when necessary. It has happened before, and is likely to happen again. But it needs to be done with the long-term, in-universe consequences in mind.
Contrary to what some fans seem to think, the people in charge of the Might & Magic Lore are not that stubborn (at least not more stubborn than, say, the average Heroes fan ), but they need to maintain some balance and consistency, because this world is shared with other games than just Heroes. If all we had to worry about was pleasing Heroes fans exclusively, our job would be easier
I think some liches decaying faster because of sandros void curse would be plausible,but not a good long term solution,since that would only justify skeletal liches in certain games.
However what if it had a certain effect on the mindset of the liches?
What if the liches are actually able to seperate themselves from the mother namtaru but this causes their bodies to decompose again?
Since many liches are emotionless(I think,I mean they have no morale) it would only appear logical to them to find a way to cover such a weakness.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:25 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:27, 29 Jan 2015.
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dark-whisperer said:
If Liches use Manticore venom to become Archliches and because of that they become skeletal shouldn't then only Archliches be skeletal? Or Im not understanding this right?
Well, you wouldn't have the Heroes 6 Lich equivalent anymore. The Archlich from Heroes 6 becomes the Lich in Heroes 7, and then that gets an upgrade too.
Think of it as a process where the old ritual is replaced with a new, more efficient ritual, although with a side effect - becoming Skeletal.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 29, 2015 07:32 PM |
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Few more questions...
If requirement for a Lich to become Archlich is only death why don't they just kill themselves in some not so dramatic way? And what happens with Liches that die in combat? Shouldn't we get only Archliches by necromancy after battle, or maybe even during battle when some of the Liches perish?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 07:34 PM |
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fuChris said:
NoNoNo! That would recreate the Lamassu problem. Lamassu are already supposed to have died out at this point in the timeline. They are getting one last use out of them and nothing else. I don't know how it will be handled after H7 and whether they will be included afterwards but dropping the lich from the lineup is not an option.
Hey, hey, wait a sec! Who said drop Liches from the lineup?!
dark-whisperer said:
If requirement for a Lich to become Archlich is only death why don't they just kill themselves in some not so dramatic way? And what happens with Liches that die in combat? Shouldn't we get only Archliches by necromancy after battle, or maybe even during battle when some of the Liches perish?
Archlich is more like a status, a title. A Lich becomes an Archlich when the moment when he would die naturally passes. For example, a human should have died by age 54, but he became a Lich and lived past 54 years. Then he becomes an Archlich.
Liches feel that moment when their natural death shoud have came.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Marzhin at 19:38, 29 Jan 2015.
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Stevie said:
@Marzhin, Liches becoming Skeletal is a side effect which they suffer in undergoing a ritual where they consume both Manticore venom and Namtaru venom which is similar to what Moander did. The Scope for them is to achieve immediate Archlichdom by triggering the moment of their death there because of consuming Manticore venom. That's arguably better than being a Lich for up to 100 years and only after it becoming an Archlich.
All that is based on the lore from Moander's bio and the lore from the transition from a Lich to Archlich in Heroes 6.
The H6 bio says :
An Archlich is given that title when he has continued “living” beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted.
It has nothing to do with becoming a skeleton faster or slower. You become an Archlich when you exceed what should have been your "unaltered" lifespan.
Anyway, I said what I had to say on that topic.
Stevie said:
Then DO IT?! Come on, please, we want the Skeletal Liches back!
That's exactly what I've been trying to explain. It's not just about what you want.
True, fans are the ones who buy the game (some of them, at least...)
But we are the ones who will spend 3 or more years working on it every day (and sometimes it includes weekends and nights.)
It's about hopefully finding a good compromise that will please both sides, and will work for the brand as a whole, not just this particular game. Else what's the point?
That said, the topic of fans "wanting" this or that always reminds me of this great quote from Alan Moore:
It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists.
Not that I necessarily think of us as artists, but still something worth mulling over to understand the creators' point of view
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:38 PM |
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BRB.
- Inscription on Lich's note to his wife prior to becoming Archlich. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 07:38 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:38, 29 Jan 2015.
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dark-whisperer said:
Few more questions...
If requirement for a Lich to become Archlich is only death why don't they just kill themselves in some not so dramatic way?
Firstly because that would defeat the purpose of having Skeletal liches which is mainly what we're after.
Secondly because there is no other precedent we know of that produces that effect. If they invent one that's fine by me.
said:
And what happens with Liches that die in combat? Shouldn't we get only Archliches by necromancy after battle?
Necromancy raises ghouls, zombies or enslaves spirits like Ghosts, it does not produce Liches or Archliches. Those become liches by consuming Namtaru venom. So when a Lich dies, a Necromant can call his soul back as a ghoul, zombie, ghost, etc. (if that's even possible, idk)
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 29, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Quote:
It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists.
If I'd go to make my own heroes game, Ubi would sue the **** out of me
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
