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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 09:50 PM |
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I am quite neutral about the new system, but I don't think that removing prerequisities is a good thing, especially if you can freely pick anything you want. With prerequisities you have to make some decisions, like if you want to sacrifice a good skill for another one, or if you want to pick some weaker ones to get the strong one. Which, in my opinion, adds some depth to the system.
Of course I am not saying that every ability in every skill should have them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some here and there, while you are able to choose others freely.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 09, 2015 09:57 PM |
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QP-ing a mod? Not even in your dreams 
kiryu133 said:
i don't see the problem with the h7 skillsystem 
IMO, the biggest issue is that Hero classes are way too restrictive. It would be so easy to make have one big skillwheel per faction affinity (for instance, racial +15-17 skills to choose from), and making hero classes only influence in:
- starting skills.
- ultimate abilities.
- major/minor skills
I think I could live without prerequisites, for as long as the skillwheel of each hero offered more, so much more possibilities when developing him/her.
Just because Imani is a chieftain means that you cannnot get offense, or any magic outside of Air/Earth is such a terrible design choice I cannot understand. Sigh...
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 09:59 PM |
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I do not want to judge Erwan cause he is cool guy and I like AShan and many new M&M features.... but skillwheel I simply do not understand- as far as I know, HoMM 5 specialization and skillwheel are widely acclaimed as best and praised so I neither do understand why they have not just returned to this system with some improvements and fresh ideas
He has also said that Western scene (USA, Western Europe) generally prefer more simplistic mechanics to Eastern- for Russians and Chinese those are always to easy and to simple, they always want to make the game more hardcore and complicated (well, it can be seen in mods)
Maybe this is the reason why skillwheel is much more simple when compared to its counterpart in HoMM 5 and te reason why there have been changes
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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 10:02 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
- starting skills.
- ultimate abilities.
That's actually pretty good idea. I always thought that if you make the wheel same for all classes, then it would make them redundant, but the different starting skills and ultimates would fix that.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 09, 2015 10:04 PM |
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JotunLogi said:
I do not want to judge Erwan cause he is cool guy
I agree with that, wholeheartedly. But I'd rather have a jam session with him rather than play the long awaited 3.0 patch for Heroes 6!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 09, 2015 10:06 PM |
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I don't think it makes them redundant, but giving each of them an unique flavour (in the form of starting skills and ultimate abilities). What's more important is to make the class 'choice' much less restrictive than it is right now.
Oh, and I forgot about the Major/Minor skills thingy. That's another way to make each hero class a tad more diverse than just starting skills + ultimates.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 10:07 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
IMO, the biggest issue is that Hero classes are way too restrictive. It would be so easy to make have one big skillwheel per faction affinity (for instance, racial +15-17 skills to choose from), and making hero classes only influence in:
- starting skills.
- ultimate abilities.
I think I could live without prerequisites, for as long as the skillwheel of each hero offered more, so much more possibilities when developing him/her.
Just because Imani is a chieftain means that you cannnot get offense, or any magic outside of Air/Earth is such a terrible design choice I cannot understand. Sigh...
+1 I don't mind no Pre reqs personally and it's way too restrictive. I hated playing as a stronghold might hero without offense as an option. What kid of chieftain is that? 
I hope we can get them to let us pick from more skills and at the same time increase the level cap.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 09, 2015 10:20 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
IMO, the biggest issue is that Hero classes are way too restrictive. It would be so easy to make have one big skillwheel per faction affinity (for instance, racial +15-17 skills to choose from), and making hero classes only influence in:
- starting skills.
- ultimate abilities.
- major/minor skills
I think I could live without prerequisites, for as long as the skillwheel of each hero offered more, so much more possibilities when developing him/her.
Just because Imani is a chieftain means that you cannnot get offense, or any magic outside of Air/Earth is such a terrible design choice I cannot understand. Sigh...
i agree with this though, bu as a base this system seems really great! but a barbarian (chieftain, whatever) not having access to offense is just wrong
but the basic concept (and most of the execution) seems rather fantastic.
the_green_drag said:
I hope we can get them to let us pick from more skills and at the same time increase the level cap.
i'm not sure here though. the challange (or specialization) in this type of wheels comes more from limiting the amount of skills you can pick. i'm all for increased base stats through higher level-cap, but getting skill-points kinda needs to stop at some point.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 10:31 PM |
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Isn't the cap 25? That's too few
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 09, 2015 10:32 PM |
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Why would you want a cap anyway.
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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 10:35 PM |
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Galaad said:
Why would you want a cap anyway.
Yeah, just make the XP requirement increase exponentially after a certain point.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 09, 2015 10:37 PM |
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Why not keeping leveling up? What's the point of accumulating XP if it won't boost stats?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 09, 2015 10:39 PM |
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Neovius said:
Galaad said:
Why would you want a cap anyway.
Yeah, just make the XP requirement increase exponentially after a certain point.
*h5 flashbacks*
nooo... *shudders* stop getting skill points (but not stats) is preferable since, as i said, the uniqueness of the builds will depend on limiting available perks. And since there is no limit to the amount of perks or skills you seem able to take, limiting the total amount of skill points is necessary. You should be able to decide what the max amount will be when setting up the game though
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 10:40 PM |
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It's just another reason why larger maps are boring in ubisoft Heroes, IMO.
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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 10:40 PM |
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Edited by Neovius at 23:18, 09 Apr 2015.
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Maybe because, if you kill your opponent's strongest hero early on, it would be impossible for him to catch up. But maybe it would be already over for him anyway.
kiryu133 said:
stop getting skill points (but not stats)
That makes sense.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 09, 2015 10:44 PM |
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JotunLogi said:
I do not want to judge Erwan cause he is cool guy and I like AShan and many new M&M features.... but skillwheel I simply do not understand- as far as I know, HoMM 5 specialization and skillwheel are widely acclaimed as best and praised so I neither do understand why they have not just returned to this system with some improvements and fresh ideas
Well H5 skill system - or rather, the perk system - did have some issues. Many skills had overly cluttered perk paths which caused a lot of frustration, which was what started the call for non-random skills in the first place. It's easy to blame Erwan and Ubisoft for the H6 disaster, but we should not forget that the call for non-random skills was pretty strong back then - however, it is also fair to say that H6 showed this not to be the right path, which was also voiced quite clearly after H6. But obviously they chose to overhear that.
Personally I see this redesign of skill system completely unnecessary. It goes against the history of the game by changing something that is a very fundamental part of the game. The problems with the H5 perks could be solved by making perks non-random but retaining random skills, as has been widely suggested long before H7 reached alpha state. H5 ultimate perks were definitely also something that needed addressing, and I'll even say the new grandmaster abilities might be a step in the right direction compared to the faction-locked abilities of H5 because these were a disaster for balance. Still I feel a set of synergy perks to favor certain combinations of skills rather than just one single skill would have been a more interesting solution.
EDIT > But of course, the death blow of the H5 skill system in H7 context are the seven magic schools. As long as developers insist of keeping those, there is no sensible way to make a H5-like skill system.
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What will happen now?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 09, 2015 11:31 PM |
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alcibiades said:
EDIT > But of course, the death blow of the H5 skill system in H7 context are the seven magic schools. As long as developers insist of keeping those, there is no sensible way to make a H5-like skill system.
Ah cmon, Alci, don't be so harsh. It's not like we could group them into Elemental (Fire, Earth, Air, Water), Twilight (Light, Dark) and Primordial (Prime + Void?) Schools 
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 09, 2015 11:33 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Adventure Schools
Adventure spells were not there own school in Heroes 5.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 09, 2015 11:35 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Ah cmon, Alci, don't be so harsh. It's not like we could group them into Elemental (Fire, Earth, Air, Water), Twilight (Light, Dark) Prime and Adventure Schools
not going to happen though, unless there is another riot at the blog, lol
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 09, 2015 11:36 PM |
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The snow I was thinking when I wrote Adventure school, lol 
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