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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 03:37 PM |
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gourley4p said:
This is exactly the type of hyberbolic romanticism I am talking about in my posts. If you factor in the save and reload level ups (unless you played a self-imposed "iron man" mode), Heroes VII as described offers the exact same level of randomization as previous entries. The game offers a selection of available skills for the hero class, and you pick. It sounds exactly the same to me.
Just for clarification: with a view on skills that's something you couldn't do in HoMM 3: if you'd get a level-up and an unlucky skill choice, loading the save before that would gain you nothing, except the same choice. Once you knew that, your only chance would be to make a save at every level-up that offered 2 equally good options. Then, if you followed a branch and it proved not good, you MIGHT go back to one of those points and pick differently.
Of course it could be rather bothersome to always go back that far - so I don't think many bothered with THAT kind of thing.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 28, 2015 03:41 PM |
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I never bothered reloading due skill picking. I would mainly adapt to the new situation if things went too dire, but I really never had a big problem due that. I found it rather bemusing learning that people loaded a game due that.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 03:44 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Just for clarification: with a view on skills that's something you couldn't do in HoMM 3: if you'd get a level-up and an unlucky skill choice, loading the save before that would gain you nothing, except the same choice. Once you knew that, your only chance would be to make a save at every level-up that offered 2 equally good options. Then, if you followed a branch and it proved not good, you MIGHT go back to one of those points and pick differently.
Of course it could be rather bothersome to always go back that far - so I don't think many bothered with THAT kind of thing.
I sure never did this  But it's the great about heroes, every game is up to the random skills and to adapt to it on every time you get a level up.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 28, 2015 03:44 PM |
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@Panda
Indeed, in H3, random map and vs AI on 200% you could get in all slots eagle eye and navigation, don't move for 1 month and still win easily. But on custom maps or multiplayer, a single bad skill and you might lose the game. Of course I consider that as a flaw, but that's it, it asks for some knowledge at 90% then luck at 10%.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 28, 2015 03:48 PM |
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gourley4p said:
Having to save my game in Heroes V prior to a level up or before visiting a skill hut and having to reload to make sure I get useful skills is not in any way depth or strategy. It is wasted time. Yet, I see people romanticizing it as the apex of strategy gaming.
No. Many people pointed out flaws with this, especially the Witch Huts, but people asked for a confirmation box to remedy the situation. UbiSofts' answer? Cut the Witch Huts from the game altogether.
In a game like Heroes3, each Hero had a seed with which it started the game, or perhaps it derived from a global seed in the game which combined to something unique, but regardless, the level-up scheme was pretty much set in stone. Reloading doesn't change that path, you will get presented with the same skills each time for that level up and that map session.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 28, 2015 03:50 PM |
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Minion said:
Maybe the blog wasn't meant to act as "fans will have the final say in every single decision we make".
no one thought so, but it was explicitly said that we would have some impact on many areas of the game yet so far the only thing we have had an impact on is 2 pre-determined factions and some swag for the collectors edition. I'm not personally outraged by this but rather how Ubi is answering the outrage by insulting people! That's the last straw for me. Ubisoft is not getting anything from me again unless they owe up to and ends this kind of behavior. It's unacceptable coming from anyone but extremely so coming from a multi-million dollar international company. Worse in that some people defend it. You don't owe Ubisoft snow.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 03:51 PM |
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I think I've seen enough "arguments" to realize that a lot of people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. It's a shame because it really keeps me personally away from writing constructive posts, not because I feel that they don't deserve it, but more because they would simply dismiss any argument that stands in the way of their personal beliefs, just like the M&M team did in their article. But I'm grateful for one fact, that now I can empathize with people like JJ who faced such opposition even from myself, for example on the subject of towns and economy, or if you want something more related to Heroes 7 - the class system. Oh, how wrong I could've been, imagining something else, being blinded by the fleeting hope that things would turn out to be different, and that surely he was just a nostalgic grumpy old fan that couldn't make peace with Ubisoft acquiring the title. It didn't took long before I realized better, playing the game for myself helped with that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 28, 2015 04:01 PM |
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Salamandre said:
@Panda
Indeed, in H3, random map and vs AI on 200% you could get in all slots eagle eye and navigation, don't move for 1 month and still win easily. But on custom maps or multiplayer, a single bad skill and you might lose the game. Of course I consider that as a flaw, but that's it, it asks for some knowledge at 90% then luck at 10%.
That was mainly because some skills were downright useless and some overpowered. But to get a taste of h6-h7 skill system imagine not being able to get earth magic on Crag Hack in no possible way, there are no scholars, no witch huts, no magic universities, you are stuck with only 10 predetermined skills to chose from, even if the game may have 30-40. In older games, even if you got an hero that's restricted from gaining a skill from lvl-up (like necromancy), you could still get it via map objects(or custom events), but now you just got to use what skills they want you to use.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 28, 2015 04:09 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 16:10, 28 Apr 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
I think I lost all my interest in heroes 7, I was hoping I could mod it and fix spiderpolis, but with this skill system...
Yep, I guess I'll save my Mansion for Heroes III when ready.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 04:19 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
I'm not personally outraged by this but rather how Ubi is answering the outrage by insulting people!
...I still don't see how anything in that blog post was insulting.
On the other hand, I see plenty of insults from the fans. Unending stream of those, in fact.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 28, 2015 04:26 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Salamandre said:
@Panda
Indeed, in H3, random map and vs AI on 200% you could get in all slots eagle eye and navigation, don't move for 1 month and still win easily. But on custom maps or multiplayer, a single bad skill and you might lose the game. Of course I consider that as a flaw, but that's it, it asks for some knowledge at 90% then luck at 10%.
That was mainly because some skills were downright useless and some overpowered. But to get a taste of h6-h7 skill system imagine not being able to get earth magic on Crag Hack in no possible way, there are no scholars, no witch huts, no magic universities, you are stuck with only 10 predetermined skills to chose from, even if the game may have 30-40. In older games, even if you got an hero that's restricted from gaining a skill from lvl-up (like necromancy), you could still get it via map objects(or custom events), but now you just got to use what skills they want you to use.
I don't mind much restrictions to learn certain (and very particular) skills, skills which would dictated a faction feature, things on that line. But that's mainly addressed to a skill system where you would have universal skills, faction-guided ones, race-guided ones, class-guided ones, hero-guided ones. This is the sort of layout that I would find amusing. If your hero happened to be a good explorer, he would have means to learn more exploring skills (even in random odds). If he was a fighter, more fighting skills. It makes more sense to me. If your hero conquer an opposing faction town, some skills from that other faction would start to be available to learn under certain circumstances. This is the way I see it.
Anyway, this system won't appear in Heroes game whatsoever, and the current layout is not of my liking. What can I do about it? I don't buy it.
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gourley4p
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 04:47 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Indeed, in H3, random map and vs AI on 200% you could get in all slots eagle eye and navigation, don't move for 1 month and still win easily. But on custom maps or multiplayer, a single bad skill and you might lose the game. Of course I consider that as a flaw, but that's it, it asks for some knowledge at 90% then luck at 10%.
You raise a good point about the differences random skills have on playing single player/campaigns vs. multiplayer, Salamandre. I wonder if that impacts how people feel about random skills.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 04:57 PM |
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Sligneris said:
kiryu133 said:
I'm not personally outraged by this but rather how Ubi is answering the outrage by insulting people!
...I still don't see how anything in that blog post was insulting.
On the other hand, I see plenty of insults from the fans. Unending stream of those, in fact.
Well we are the consumer. We can say whatever we want and if its insults then it just reflects the persons character but the company making the product should never insult their fans/customers/possible customers.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 05:07 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:10, 28 Apr 2015.
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gourley4p said:
Salamandre said:
Indeed, in H3, random map and vs AI on 200% you could get in all slots eagle eye and navigation, don't move for 1 month and still win easily. But on custom maps or multiplayer, a single bad skill and you might lose the game. Of course I consider that as a flaw, but that's it, it asks for some knowledge at 90% then luck at 10%.
You raise a good point about the differences random skills have on playing single player/campaigns vs. multiplayer, Salamandre. I wonder if that impacts how people feel about random skills.
Not in the slightest in the way you might think. The vast majority of skills in Heroes 3 were available to get via the random drop, with only a few exceptions of 1-2 skills per class, which were locked out of randomness, but you could've still learn them by other means. But now imagine that the majority of those skills, let's say of approximately 66%, were in fact completely banned from your hero's pool with no way of acquiring them. Have you? Well then, welcome to Heroes 7.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 28, 2015 05:12 PM |
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Well, as one user said on the Shadow Council, "it is just a game". And he/she is right. I won't have much business to do with a trashy game. Not certain if I even can, with those high PC requirements.
I had my say, and so did others. If Ubi does not respect them, their fault.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 28, 2015 05:14 PM |
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Well, need to see what skills he can counter with. For example, if earth magic can be effectively countered by offense or whatever, we don't need every hero to be able to learn earth.
But I get it that devs are lost. And wog taught me one thing: you want game on your taste, make it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 05:15 PM |
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Stevie said:
I think I've seen enough "arguments" to realize that a lot of people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. It's a shame because it really keeps me personally away from writing constructive posts, not because I feel that they don't deserve it, but more because they would simply dismiss any argument that stands in the way of their personal beliefs, just like the M&M team did in their article. But I'm grateful for one fact, that now I can empathize with people like JJ who faced such opposition even from myself, for example on the subject of towns and economy, or if you want something more related to Heroes 7 - the class system. Oh, how wrong I could've been, imagining something else, being blinded by the fleeting hope that things would turn out to be different, and that surely he was just a nostalgic grumpy old fan that couldn't make peace with Ubisoft acquiring the title. It didn't took long before I realized better, playing the game for myself helped with that.
Well, bummer then. It looks like this may not be the game for you.
I agree with people who say this skill system is far from perfect, but the way I see it, it's not disaster some make it out to be. But to realy know how this will work out, is no other way, than to test it, or watch some let's plays atleast. One should also consider that HoMM is not just single player game. I would even argue that multiplayer is even more important, and for multiplayer highly competitive croud, diferent approach is needed that whith single-players.
Perhaps HoMM is ment for a diferent fanbase? In 15 years the face of gaming has changed dramaticaly. in 20 years even more so. It's natural that original HoMM game must be altered, if it's to be suited for this times. It makes no sense for Ubi to make a game that appeals to a bunch of 30+ year old nostalgic fans. H3 is gone. And it's not comming back.
The biggest mistake Ubi did was hire VIP's and Shadow Council to market game as such, that it would appeal to NWC fans. They did it only because they don't have guts. But this things only make it so that people expect that end product will be something it's not ment to be. Is randomness REALY the hearth of HoMM? For who? Not for me. For me it's just a bit extra, that should be added in small ammounts, to make games a bit more interasting.
Will new Ubi games REALY attract loads of RPG players that have no idea what HoMM is? I certainly HOPE SO! Because that way, this old fanbase will finaly get along with the changes or quit (this includes me ofc), and HoMM will live on with new, changed vision. It will be a diferent game, with diferent kind of philosophy behind it, and with diferent fans. And in 30 years time, these fans will grow up, and remember old nostalgic times of Ubisoft's HoMM series 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 28, 2015 05:16 PM |
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Salamandre said:
wog taught me one thing: you want game on your taste, make it.
Not everyone is able to make a game. This is why we have professional developers. Problem is, they shouldn't change the core aspects of a game, especially such a notorious one.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 28, 2015 05:20 PM |
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The more they are changing, the more they are changing the whole Heroes games, which turn into... something else.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 05:24 PM |
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Edited by KingImp at 17:25, 28 Apr 2015.
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PandaTar said:
For those who pre-order it, they'll have secured beta-testing. What % of beta-testing people will that be, I wonder? I can hardly believe that people who are not enjoying this show so far will try beta-testing, so, in a sense, the beta-testing might be lead only by those who approve of almost everything. I don't sense much good in that.
What are your views on that?
I definitely wouldn't fall into that category. When I beta tested the base game of H5, I was critical of almost everything and had no problem making it known. Eventually they decided to not invite me back for testing the expansions because they probably couldn't handle those that weren't constantly up their asses praising every decision.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
