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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:46, 01 May 2015.
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Pawek_13 said:
It doesn't even matter that much. The problem is that all faction-specific abilities are crammed into racial skill. A majority of them should be spread across all other skills, so that some skills would get faction-specific abilities, while Righteousness (and other racials) should get their own set of abilities.
Which begs the question of why did they went for such a design in the first place. If the idea behind racial uniqueness is having different abilities for different skills, then why take those abilities to cram them in one skill which is thematically describing something entirely else? Because that's what we have here. United We Stand is a defense ability, Sister of Mercy is a warfare ability and Rightful Justice is an offense/defense ability, and they are all under a skill which is thematically tied with morale. How much sense does that make?
Wouldn't it have been better if racial abilities were part of the skills whose theme they were related with? Wouldn't that render having separate racial skills useless and hopefully lead to them being removed, so that there would be less skills to pick and more abilities to choose from? Wouldn't that be much more intuitive and balanced? Yes, it would.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted May 01, 2015 06:44 PM |
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The more I think about it the less sence these perks make...
Unless morale is capped at 50% like in H5, these skills can cause an avalanche effect meaning you get good morale 70-80% of the time which is borderline OP.
On the other hand if morale is capped at 50% then half of these skills are useless.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 06:53 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
No, I was thinking if fans can do it, why couldn't the devs make something of their own? It does not sound like it needs a ton of work to make it right. Especially if everything else is 3D.
Because ... they like their towns the way they made it? I would make a guess that the towns in H7 look that way on purpose. And artists liked their design.
It's simply as ... why didn't Da Vinchi paint Mona Lisa in more vivd colors? I can easily use photoshop and add filters so Mona would look more colorful. I could also make her slimmer and have her hair more full. If I can do it to make Mona Lisa "better", then why didn't Da Vinci? It's because HE painted it, and it was HIM that made the decision on what techniques, colours, and model he'll use. Not me.
I'm not comparing limbics townscreens to Da Vinci's work, but principle is the same. It's art, and it's made as artist envisioned it.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 07:09 PM |
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Stevie said:
Which begs the question of why did they went for such a design in the first place. If the idea behind racial uniqueness is having different abilities for different skills, then why take those abilities to cram them in one skill which is thematically describing something entirely else? Because that's what we have here. United We Stand is a defense ability, Sister of Mercy is a warfare ability and Rightful Justice is an offense/defense ability, and they are all under a skill which is thematically tied with morale. How much sense does that make?
Wouldn't it have been better if racial abilities were part of the skills whose theme they were related with? Wouldn't that render having separate racial skills useless and hopefully lead to them being removed, so that there would be less skills to pick and more abilities to choose from? Wouldn't that be much more intuitive and balanced? Yes, it would.
Likely, it's the lack of prerequisites. Further, if a Haven hero wants to specialize in Offense, he not only has the Offense skill itself, but he also has a Haven® brand offense skill in addition to the generics, without sacrificing a helpful standard offense skill.
And don't even try to say "But how are these thematic?" because not even H5 was very good with that. Let's look at H5, shall we?
Barbarian: Blood rage abilities only include Memory of Our Blood (directly tied to Blood Rage, good) Might over Magic (an enemy spell debuff... very blood ragey, right?) Powerful Blow (Hmm... where is this blood rage again?) and Absolute Rage(back to an actual blood rage related blood rage ability)
Demon Lord: Gating has Consume Corpse (Sounds like something Gating gets upgraded by, right?) Hellfire (Much gate, very summon) Mark of the Damned (no gates so far) and Urgash's Call (Wow, the only gating related ability in a faction skill called Gating!)
Knight: Counterstrike (which also upgrade Training) has things like Retaliation Strike (okay, that deals with retaliation) Benediction (this is training/retaliatory... how?) Expert Training (the training buff) and Unstoppable Charge (a direct upgrade to the retaliation related active)
Necromancer: Necromancy has Eternal Servitude (self raise troops, good, good, Necromancy related) Banshee Howl (a... morale debuff?) Mark of the Necromancer (a mana regen ability, not Dark Points) and Howl of Terror (an upgraded morale debuff?)
Ranger: Anvenger, which is a chance based (but not exactly "luck related, though both are chance based) has Deadeye Shot (which is auto crit for Avenging) Rain of Arrows (also avenger list related) Imbue Arrow (a spell related ability that, as much as any other attack, could use the crits, but not really based off of it) and Nature's Luck (which is Luck, not Avenger/crit related.)
(however, I rarely played Sylvan, so perhaps those crits actually are true luck, but that's not how I've been reading it)
Runemage: Rune Lore gets Refresh Rune (related) Greater rune (related) and Fine Rune (related) with Absolute Protection (not related what so ever.)
Warlock: Irrisitable Magic is a spell upgrade. Dark Ritual increases mana (I guess that's related?) Empowered Spells (pretty related) Elemental Vision (note this in itself isn't the racial, though is important enough to be all on it's own, and it's related to spell empowerment) and Rage of the Elements (which is related if all the others are.)
Wizard: Artificer has Consume artifact (okay) Mark of the Wizard (what) Magic Mirror (huh) and Arcane Omniscience (this sounds related to Atrifacts to me... )
That's roughly 17 out of 32 racial skill perks that are actually dedicated to the racial skill. 53%
And if we look at Righteousness, we see: 4 are morale, 3 are not. 57% I myself would wager that the Sisters of Mercy is almost a permanent morale effect on a warfare unit, so I'd personally bump that up a bit more, but lets just say it's not.
If you wanted to look at the abilities outside of the skills themselves, you'll likely see a similar value. I know some have a lot, like Demon Lord's have lots of actual Gating buffs not in Gating itself, but others have nothing. Tell me, where does Knight and Wizard have Counterstrike and Training direct upgrades, or if there even is a skill that relates to Artificer besides Consume Artifact? I'll be waiting for that write up.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 01, 2015 07:10 PM |
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Quote:
Because ... they like their towns the way they made it? I would make a guess that the towns in H7 look that way on purpose. And artists liked their design.
Haven't thought of it like that way. But still, it makes less sense to have town screen 2D rather than 3D.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 01, 2015 07:14 PM |
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Stevie said:
Wouldn't it have been better if racial abilities were part of the skills whose theme they were related with? Wouldn't that render having separate racial skills useless and hopefully lead to them being removed, so that there would be less skills to pick and more abilities to choose from? Wouldn't that be much more intuitive and balanced? Yes, it would.
No, it wouldn't.  I really like racial skills in the state in which they are now - in Heroes V they seemed a little bit off. I think that racials which are treated like other skills are the essence of heroes from different factions. I think that situation where there will be only faction abilities would be similar to wht we have in Heroes VI - there are some abilities that differentiate heroes of different factions but still, if these abilities were absent, hardly anyone would notice. I agree that faction-specific abilities outside the racial skill are a must-have but without the racials presence of these abilities would not make a significant difference between factions.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 07:37 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
But still, it makes less sense to have town screen 2D rather than 3D.
The 3D vs 2D is seperate issue. I would guess that it was among the first if not THE first decision the designers made. Why exactley did they choose 2D? I don't know, but I can make a guess, as there's several possible factors:
- 3D screens are more expensive and take longer to make
- In H5 times, there was a lot of fans complaining about 3D towns, for various reasons, including:
- it takes longer time to load 3D screen, when player enters and leaves town.
- it can be laggy.
- buildings are less distinguishable from one another and hard to locate
- it's overkill. 3D is nice, but to spend that much on something like townscreens, that in most games, apart from first few, will not get much of players atention?
- minimum requierments for game are as big as it is ... no need to increase them by adding 3D towns...
- Nostalgia factor.
- and there's probably more ...
I like 3D townscreens aswell, but I understand budget for games is finite, and I rather see them alocate it more towards better gameplay, and perhaps some inovations in that area, perhaps even a better campaign, and have TS that is 2D and functional.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 07:39 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Likely, it's the lack of prerequisites. Further, if a Haven hero wants to specialize in Offense, he not only has the Offense skill itself, but he also has a Haven® brand offense skill in addition to the generics, without sacrificing a helpful standard offense skill.
A lack of prerequisites? How is that even remotely connected to what I've been saying? Why would prerequisites make it impossible to have the right abilities in the right skills?
And no, having a second "offense" skill for Haven is not only incredibly redundant, but also stupid as Haven was never known as an offensive faction, but rather as a defensive one.
Protolisk said:
And don't even try to say "But how are these thematic?" because not even H5 was very good with that. Let's look at H5, shall we?
And here is where the red herring begins. First of all, I have no illusions that Heroes 5 got it right here, on the contrary. Second of all, you use past mistakes that should have been fixed as an argument for their new mistakes. That doesn't stand up.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 07:50 PM |
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Stevie said:
A lack of prerequisites? How is that even remotely connected to what I've been saying? Why would prerequisites make it impossible to have the right abilities in the right skills?
And no, having a second "offense" skill for Haven is not only incredibly redundant, but also stupid as Haven was never known as an offensive faction, but rather as a defensive one.
You asked what design reasoning it was. I said they took it out so that the racial abilities aren't bogged down by prerequisites. Which seems to be a design they like, no prereqs. And it isn't even a offense skill, it's a retaliation skill. You know, a defensive skill. Which adds into a theme made with their Legionaire, their Justicar, and their Celestial, requiring them all to stay near each other to gain bonuses. United We Stand also increases the abilities of these units. And since the Justicar is retaliatory in nature, the Legionaire shields, and the Celestial is also overall defensive in nature by being near their allies, United becomes a very Haven upgrade. Rightful Justice helps Justicar and Wolves most of all, retaliating just about every time they or nearby friend is attacked. And since Haven tends to be defensive overall, retaliation is how a defensive faction still does damage even when defending.
And, finally, since they need to defend so much, their units tend to be attacked first, and then retaliate. To off set this problem, the Sister will heal any who are damaged, so they all can stick together, more efficiently.
So, tell me, are these abilities not related?
Stevie said:
And here is where the red herring begins. First of all, I have no illusions that Heroes 5 got it right here, on the contrary. Second of all, you use past mistakes that should have been fixed as an argument for their new mistakes. That doesn't stand up.
You say they should be related. I said H5 isn't related. Fair enough. But they are related here, even if you didn't see it at first.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 01, 2015 07:55 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
- Nostalgia factor.
*That awkward moment when you are one of few people on this forum who feel nostalgia towards 3D townscreens, not 2D, as Heroes V was your first Heroes game...*
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:29, 01 May 2015.
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Protolisk said:
You asked what design reasoning it was. I said they took it out so that the racial abilities aren't bogged down by prerequisites. Which seems to be a design they like, no prereqs.
So then, question for you - how would having United We Stand in the Defense skill, where it obviously belongs, not be possible because of prerequisites? Can you not realize that, as long as having the right abilities in the right skills goes, prerequisites (or a lack thereof) have absolutely 0 relevance?
Protolisk said:
And it isn't even a offense skill, it's a retaliation skill. You know, a defensive skill.
Well, you know who started arguing about a "Haven® brand offense skill"? That's right, you did. Regardless if it's a Haven® brand defensive skill, or Haven® brand leadership skill or whatever else, it still doesn't change the fact that it's a redundant duplicate.
Protolisk said:
So, tell me, are these abilities not related?
Yes, they are not. United We Stand, Sisters of Mercy and Rightful Justice have nothing to do with the idea of improved morale promoted by Righteousness.
Protolisk said:
You say they should be related. I said H5 isn't related. Fair enough. But they are related here, even if you didn't see it at first.
Look, it makes 0 sense to have an ability which reads "+X attack/defense value" inside a skill which is supposed to improve MORALE. Just like it would be stupid to have Offense improve Defense, and Defense improve Luck.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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The_Green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 08:25 PM |
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Finally a skill with decent perks. I hope that all the morale and stat buffs mean that haven could be like the knight of H1 and h2. weaker troops but cheap and plentiful. Maybe the old knight rule will make a comeback.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted May 01, 2015 08:47 PM |
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The_Green_drag said:
I hope that all the morale and stat buffs mean that haven could be like the knight of H1 and h2. weaker troops but cheap and plentiful. Maybe the old knight rule will make a comeback.
I doubt it given how close Haven is to the Havens of the past two games they will probably just end up overpowered.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 09:08 PM |
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Stevie said:
So then, question for you - how would having United We Stand in the Defense skill, where it obviously belongs, not be possible because of prerequisites? Can you not realize that, as long as having the right abilities in the right skills goes, prerequisites (or a lack thereof) have absolutely 0 relevance?
It's a faction tree. It's thematically tied around Haven strategy. Which has big buffs for morale, but also has other parts to it than that. Which majors on creating a defensive block. Which is why it's in the faction tree, and not just a defense tree.
Stevie said:
Well, you know who started arguing about a "Haven® brand offense skill"? That's right, you did. Regardless if it's a Haven® brand defensive skill, or Haven® brand leadership skill or whatever else, it still doesn't change the fact that it's a redundant duplicate.
I did, because you said:
Stevie said:
United We Stand is a defense ability, Sister of Mercy is a warfare ability and Rightful Justice is an offense/defense ability, and they are all under a skill which is thematically tied with morale.
So I just continued with what you said. Yeah, it increases attack, which is innately offensive, in a defensive way.
In addition, if instead you just don't like it because it is a duplicate skill, then I still wonder if you liked H5 as well, since retaliation abilities were well within H5, as well as luck, as well as spells, as well as offense, but those all are also shown in Counterstrike increasing retaliation, Avenger's "luck" based crits, Irresistible magic having spell empowerment, and Blood Rage increasing offensive might. These too are "duplicates", but faction specific.
Stevie said:
Yes, they are not. United We Stand, Sisters of Mercy and Rightful Justice have nothing to do with the idea of improved morale promoted by Righteousness.
You are quite right. But this isn't a morale skill; it's a faction skill. That's likely Leadership, or perhaps Paragon (still not sure what that is otherwise). Even so, another good point about them is that in order to preserve a defensive block, you can't really move out to attack and return unless you had a turn in between that unit's and the enemies. Oh, wait, morale allows them to return to the formation, thus preserving the defensive buffs from those others. That's a reason why morale is still helpful to this seemingly out of place abilities.
Stevie said:
Look, it makes 0 sense to have an ability which reads "+X attack/defense value" inside a skill which is supposed to improve MORALE. Just like it would be stupid to have Offense improve Defense, and Defense improve Luck.
Guh...
Offical Blog said:
In MMH7, all factions will have their specific trait and skills, allowing to make the best of their uniqueness.
Haven for instance will be a faction with high moral bonuses thanks to their faction skill, Righteousness:
“Thanks to their faith and team spirit, the armies of the Holy Empire have impressive morale, which becomes a powerful asset in battle, where they seem to strike twice as much as their opponents." Unlocking a new rank (Novice, Expert & Master) will provide moral bonuses to all units when a friendly creature has good morale.
Yes, Haven will have high morale. That is due to the basic ranks, and many of the abilities in the skill. But, it also will be a way for all factions [to] have their specific trait and skills, allowing to make the best of their uniqueness. What's unique about Haven, besides just morale? Their retaliation specials (via Wolf and Justicar) and block formation specials (via Legionaire, Justicar, and Celestial). Which is what those abilities upgrade.
What you are saying (I assume), that all of these abilities must be morale based, would not only over duplicate with a tree that is likely already for morale, but also deters from the other unique portions of the Haven strategy. That's the whole point of a racial: to have a unique strategy compared to others.
Edit: the main reason I showed all those racial abilities from H5 was to show that a racial isn't a single thing. It's lots of things that ties into the factions strategy. Which is exactly what this is doing here. I realize now that the way I worded it before was mocking H5, but I meant it as a comparison that both are following the same path.
Extra Edit: The Abbot also has grouped defense AND ranged retaliation. Another unit of Haven that benefits from both of those skills.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 09:27 PM |
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I like Righteousness. It offers a nice chance for combos whith general Morale skill, (leadership?) as well as defence or attack skills. But we need to see them first. Potential is here.
I hope other factions will get similar cool skills. H6 faction skills were borring. I like it even better than H5 Haven's Counterstrike.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 11:10 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:23, 01 May 2015.
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@Protolisk,
You are just missing the point completely.
If you bother to read the description of the Righteousness skill, you will see clearly that it improves MORALE. But we already have a skill that improves morale, and that's LEADERSHIP. This essentially renders the Righteousness skill thematically REDUNDANT. What we didn't needed was racials with the same role as basic skills. I mean, when are we supposed to get something NEW and maybe even GROUNDBREAKING mechanics-wise?
Then the skill itself consists of abilities which are not true to its own theme. Having abilities which straight forwardly improve attack and defense in a skill which is supposed to be themed around morale by virtue of its description is NONSENSE. What do I have Offense and Defense for then? This is a problem with which we've been confronted ever since Heroes 5 and they STILL didn't manage to fix it 2 games later.
So this design has two FLAWS. One, that in the bigger picture it simply reiterates skills with the same theme and function as already established skills, and two, that those guidelines are not even followed, so that you have abilities that are entirely unrelated with what that skill describes. The redundancy of the former coupled with the counter-intuitiveness of the latter contribute to two already predominant problems of this skill system - it makes it even more CLUTTERED, expanding on an already wide skill pool, and it CONFUSES the player as to what he should expect of the abilities of a skill.
The PROPER way of doing things would have been if they assigned faction specific abilities in the skills whose theme they were related to. That's to say that, for example, the "Sister of Mercy" ability would have been complementary/part of the Warfare skill, which is the skill that is supposed to improve warmachines. "United We Stand" and "Rightful Justice" would go to Offense/Defense, and some of the rest would go to Leadership. And suddenly you have less skills and a more abilities per skill, which is what this system needs. And you also preserve thematic consistency. What prevented them to implement things this way? What could possibly be so compelling that they decided to make the system the way it looks now? Where are the upsides? There are NONE!
You said that the reason they implemented things the way they did was because of prerequisites. That simply does not make sense. Prerequisites determine HOW abilities are available in a skill, not IF. They bear no relevance whether an ability is part of one skill or another. That much you SHOULD be able to tell.
As for the idea of racial SKILLS, it may have its merits if it brings something new to the table. If it's just a mash-up of other skills and abilities, then the game is better without.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 01, 2015 11:35 PM |
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I don't entirely agree with you Stevie. What the skill does is not offer a flat morale bonus, but offer a bonus that triggers when a unit in the army gets good morale. Or, in other words, a modified H5 Empathy. So not completely the same as Leadership, albeit obviously closely related to it (which was why in H5, Empathy was an ability within Leadership. Whether it's good game design is a different question - very obviously, to benefit from this skill, you must have high morale, which basically forces to Haven heroes to always pick Leadership (at least if they want to develop their racial skill) - and that does raise some concern with me.
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What will happen now?
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 11:36 PM |
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Righteousness brings hopes. The game has a bright future if all special skills are that cool and most importantly, not overpowered. Balance is crucial to the game replayability, I hope they don't mess this up. I am thinking about preordering only to participate in the balancing, but I am not sure if playing with 2 factions can be of help to us and Limbic about this part of the game.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2015 11:51 PM |
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Stevie said:
@Protolisk,
You are just missing the point completely.
If you bother to read the description of the Righteousness skill, you will see clearly that it improves MORALE. But we already have a skill that improves morale, and that's LEADERSHIP. This essentially renders the Righteousness skill thematically REDUNDANT. What we didn't needed was racials with the same role as basic skills. I mean, when are we supposed to get something NEW and maybe even GROUNDBREAKING mechanics-wise?
It seems you are missing mine as well. It's not a specified morale skill. It's a faction skill. Tailored to the faction. That's the whole point of a faction skill. There are multiple facets to a faction. Thus, there are multiple facets to the faction skill. How is this so hard to understand? Perhaps you know more about the Leadership skill than I do, but so far, I have no idea how Leadership truly works, ability wise, aside from that it's morale based. This skill follows through with H6, as much as you may hate it, by combining the things Haven was good with in that game. Morale, and defense. What a surprise, that's the same things this faction skill does. Haven, though, has always been rather bland. Heck, when you look closely, they've almost always been another thing, made better.
Racials have almost always been just been elaborations of other skills or effects. Rune lore were all different buffs, like Light magic. Irresistible magic was Destructive magic made better. Blood Rage was specialized Offense. Artificer was general stat increases. Avenger was specified luck. Counterstrike was almost just retaliation. Gating was specialized summoning. Only Necro was truly unique, and that's just another way to get units besides paying gold and the occasional mercury for. It's just not on the combat screen like the others. And even that isn't truly unique, because of Training, which was one way to get more powerful units as opposed to the weaker ones. And, as I wrote up before, they didn't have to have things in their skills that were solely for this function, they also had periphery skills that aided the faction overall.
Stevie said:
Then the skill itself consists of abilities which are not true to its own theme. Having abilities which straight forwardly improve attack and defense in a skill which is supposed to be themed around morale by virtue of its description is NONSENSE. What do I have Offense and Defense for then? This is a problem with which we've been confronted ever since Heroes 5 and they STILL didn't manage to fix it 2 games later.
The theme is the Haven faction. To which they are thematically intertwined. And you have Offense and Defense to specialize. Beyond what the basic faction allows, you can specialize further than that.
Stevie said:
So this design has two FLAWS. One, that in the bigger picture it simply reiterates skills with the same theme and function as already established skills, and two, that those guidelines are not even followed, so that you have abilities that are entirely unrelated with what that skill describes. The redundancy of the former coupled with the counter-intuitiveness of the latter contribute to two already predominant problems of this skill system - it makes it even more CLUTTERED, expanding on an already wide skill pool, and it CONFUSES the player as to what he should expect of the abilities of a skill.
One has a system where the faction specifics are spread around multiple skills, the other has them in one place. In the first system, you could avoid the faction specified abilities completely, or focus in those faction skills, or just take some. Strange, you can still do that here. They are just located in different places, but you could still do that.
I suppose it is confusing... for you so far. You don't seem to understand that a faction has a skill tailored to that factions play-style, which does heavily rely on morale. But, do they want just the faction morale boosts, or even more morale boosts? And in the case that maybe, for what ever reason, if you wanted a non-morale based knight, the faction skill is still open to them by giving three skills that aren't morale based. The point is choices. And, typically, more choices equals a more varied strategy.
Stevie said:
The PROPER way of doing things would have been if they assigned faction specific abilities in the skills whose theme they were related to. That's to say that, for example, the "Sister of Mercy" ability would have been complementary/part of the Warfare skill, which is the skill that is supposed to improve warmachines. "United We Stand" and "Rightful Justice" would go to Offense/Defense, and some of the rest would go to Leadership. And suddenly you have less skills and a more abilities per skill, which is what this system needs. And you also preserve thematic consistency. What prevented them to implement things this way? What could possibly be so compelling that they decided to make the system the way it looks now? Where are the upsides? There are NONE!
You said that the reason they implemented things the way they did was because of prerequisites. That simply does not make sense. Prerequisites determine HOW abilities are available in a skill, not IF. They bear no relevance whether an ability is part of one skill or another. That much you SHOULD be able to tell.
That's your "proper". Which is entirely subjective. And I'm saying they didn't want prerequisites so they don't have prerequisites which I can tell you clearly don't like, and that's okay, that's your opinion. But that's how it stands, and without prerequisites, it has affected their design.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 12:07 AM |
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I've explained at the best of my abilities, and you've clearly understood at the best of yours. That's that.
Also, in the future, keep your side notes just for you, especially if you have no clue about the context of that which you're referring to.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
