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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 12:34 AM |
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The only explanation I ever saw was "it's morale!" to which I was constantly saying it wasn't. I get the differences between the systems, one being conglomerated, the other being spread out, but I have yet to see any upsides to your system that does not explicitly require the use of prerequisites, beyond a sense of "togetherness", perhaps, but that matters little since even Warcries, as of right now, has a luck buff. I suppose we should put the argument to rest.
I have removed the side note, but I would like the true context, for I can not find it. However, to me, it does read like it is saying talking to you is an exercise in futility. At best, the only other reason I can see behind it is that the attempt to talk to you is troublesome, and not actually talking to you is the tiring aspect. Would you kindly tell me the real reason then?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 12:37 AM |
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 12:41 AM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 02, 2015 12:41 AM |
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Stevie, you are not in a position to judge others on having a clue. Also a hostile tone is unlikely to gain you any favours from the community or the mods.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 02:16 AM |
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The release of the Righteousness skill reminded me of this update from a while back:
Quote:
An easy situation is playing Haven against Necropolis. Everything that boosts your troop’s morale will be good to resist the powers of the undead army, your spells and powers of the school of light will hurt them more than anyone. That means you can play your strength and you’ll be in a good position to win.
Against Dungeon, the situation will be much less comfortable. The dark elves are the perfect weapon against you, as they are darkness itself. They will weaken the power of your light, dodge your powerful counter attacks and use tricks against which you have little protection. So as a player, if you find out that you’re against Dungeon, you better adapt your strategy, towns, and hero builds.
(Emphasis added.)
Now we have this to make it worse complement that!
Quote:
This is not a RPG, hero classes are provided with each their selection of skills, which define what a class is. We don’t want freeform heroes and spellcasting barbarians.
The skills needed to break out of your faction's box are restricted to level 2 or aren't available at all. Makes perfect sense, yes?
____________
"An Elf can take out a Ranger
any day of the week, but they
prefer to do it on weekends so
they can stay up late and catch
a show afterwards." -H2 tavern
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gourley4p
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 02:22 AM |
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*removed by mod*
Moderator comment: Please refrain from discussing other members in forum posts, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the community. If you have issues with another forum member, you should either contact them directly through private message, or if you feel it's a point of breaching forum rules, write a moderator to look into the issue.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted May 02, 2015 03:39 AM |
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Tiptoe_McGuffy said:
The release of the Righteousness skill reminded me of this update from a while back:
Quote:
An easy situation is playing Haven against Necropolis. Everything that boosts your troop’s morale will be good to resist the powers of the undead army, your spells and powers of the school of light will hurt them more than anyone. That means you can play your strength and you’ll be in a good position to win.
Against Dungeon, the situation will be much less comfortable. The dark elves are the perfect weapon against you, as they are darkness itself. They will weaken the power of your light, dodge your powerful counter attacks and use tricks against which you have little protection. So as a player, if you find out that you’re against Dungeon, you better adapt your strategy, towns, and hero builds.
(Emphasis added.)
Now we have this to make it worse complement that!
Quote:
This is not a RPG, hero classes are provided with each their selection of skills, which define what a class is. We don’t want freeform heroes and spellcasting barbarians.
The skills needed to break out of your faction's box are restricted to level 2 or aren't available at all. Makes perfect sense, yes?
It doesn't sound consistent.
This quotation –
Quote:
This is not a RPG, hero classes are provided with each their selection of skills, which define what a class is. We don’t want freeform heroes and spellcasting barbarians.
– is the saddest thing I have read up to date in all those articles, not for the meaning, but the implication. It soon transpired to me, in a very stronger language, that there was not much to wait from this game anymore. I guess it's a normal and natural thing as I age.
There's a faint curiosity regarding the next title, HoMM 8 if any, and a lingering and stubborn feeling of MM XI.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 05:13 AM |
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Nah, but seriously I feel like the Fan-day did do any good for Stevie and Galaad, and I feel they act like they are somehow more enlightened or knowledgeable then other fans.
What is interesting, in Heroes 5 the racial skill tree was completely unbalanced and just a bunch of random skills without any serious theme. But, Heroes 5 did have other faction specific skills spread around in other skill trees. In Heroes 7 though, all these faction specific trees are in one place - this makes more practical sense as any player, new or veteran can right away see the theme - Leadership is Leadership no matter which hero it belongs to, Air Magic tree is the same regardless of hero/faction.
I think it's a great system. You can say it lacks complexity, but I feel the complexity comes from combining different skill trees with you faction specific skill - like it is a no brainer that Righteousness is great when combined with Leadership tree!
This even got Stevie confused who thought that the effect of these two trees is a Morale increase - which is not.
Rigteousness may be also good when combined with War-machine tree, too. Or Offence. Or Warcries!
Overall I think it is a good system that promotes unique builds between faction but also removes confusion of having same trees being different like in Heroes 5.
What I would love to see though, is the increase in skills. I feel Expert tier need to have 3 skills and Master tier 2. This would make more sense in my opinion, although I doubt the Devs will do in the Vanilla game(may be in Expansion though) as this would lead to the need to pretty much rebalance the whole game.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 02, 2015 06:50 AM |
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I'm actually on partialy Stevies side. Most of the skills do feel like they should be faction uniques in other skills.
Unite we stand - Deffence
Sister of mercy - Warfare
Coordinted effort, Brothers in Arms - Moral
Rightfull justice - Offence
Blessed words - Light magic
In a more H5, or even H6, system these would be part of their respective tries, not in their own
But on the other side I don't see this skill that similar to Leadership.
Leadership gives a moral bonus to each individual unit, this abilitie does the oposite and increases the moral of all except that one unit.
The whole skill supports a synergy on a big scale, and even if the request are not pesent as mandatory, they are present atleast spiritually. Which may be the right approach, since unlike the H5 system you are not limited to ona and the same build, but you are still free and motivatited to go for it. Especially when using random system which, again as in H5, could have screwed your build
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted May 02, 2015 09:37 AM |
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The basic Righteousness skill description is indeed confusing as hell but yeah it does not provide a direct morale boost per se, instead it provides a unique faction specific way of combat that is impossible for other factions to reproduce. Which is a good thing because it adds much needed flavour and if the devs can achieve similar gameplay elements for all factions consistently then I'll be pleasantly surprised because that is going to be friggin hard to pull off. Currently only Luck has a similar trigger effect similar to morale so that means we have to look for other ways to specialize for other factions.
Let's look at what is possible for other factions.
Necro is obviously gonna get necromancy but that in itself does not provide unique gameplay in itself. The option here is that they inflict negative morale and the units get some kind of extra abilities or an effect triggers if but that is going to be overpowered against neutrals and completely useless in return against hero armies that have high morale. So this approach is really hard to execute. (Personally I wouldn't mind if necro had an easier time against neutrals. There is just something right with a host of undead seemingly sweep across the landscape without opposition.)
Sylvan were previously tied with luck but that is now a theme for inferno. That leaves either defence, speed or iniciative as possible stats to manipulate. Defence is obviously(eventually) gonna end up as a Fortress speciality. Speed and iniciative bonuses however can have a far more devestating effect then morale can ever have. Anyone who played duels in H5 playing Sylvan can testify how overpowered a turn 1 massacre can be. To counter this the bonuses would have to trigger during actions on the battlefield instead of outright at the start of the battle. But what use is extra speed when the armies have already connected and somebody already had the first blow? That leaves us with iniciative which is ok but in itself doesn't provide nearly the same bonuses as the Righteousness skill does. The marked target skill in H5 is a possible option to obtain bonuses but it is fatally flawed concept because it only triggers against certain enemies at a time(even if we get rid of the stupi "need to kill 2 weeks of population first" BS rule) and more importantly it is completely useless in duel maps. It could work if you could freely chose marked targets from the start but that would massively help in creeping.
Stronghold is obviously tied to attack bonuses primarily that could be triggered similarly to how bloodrage was gained in H5 but that means that the faction will only have one way of playing(rush now think later) as all other playstyles will mean they will lose their edge against other heroes or in tricky neutral fights.
Dungeon it tricky because it is very much centered on the Hero(destuctive magic) and lacks any kind of unique playstyle. I guess stealth can be used but that would mean the hero has to waste a turn not casting destuctive spells to activate stealth on a unit. Similarly a system where any unit can enter stealth mode by itself is just as flawed as one that restricts you to only have 1 unit in stealth mode as it was in H6 not to mention the cooldown which is probably the stupidest "innovation" the series had although that title is very much contested. Another option would be to introduce the concept of poisons to the game that have a % chance to trigger causing damage and either inflicting weakness against magic damage for the hero to exploit or acting as a trigger for units to obtain similar bonuses as other factions. As to what those bonuses could be I have no idea because Dungeon is well rounded faction that that need no speciality.
Academy is obviously the most problematic one. The H5 approach while fun is also very hero centric and does not provide a unique playstyle. The only option I can think of is to have hero spellcasting act as a trigger for units for example triggering an extra attack on an adjacent enemy creature that can not be retaliated. This would get a much better use out of the genie and gargoyle cavalary units one of which is very fragine while the other is criminally weak in attack(according to the H5 experience). Units gaining bonuses against units that were cast spells upon is not a good idea since that is already what spells provide by themselves, adding anymore is redundant in my opinion.
All in all finding such triggers to enable faction specific playstyles is going to be very tricky to pull off if at all a wise thing to do as it could severly restrict playstyle options if not done right.
Any other ideas i missed?
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 02, 2015 10:21 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 10:22, 02 May 2015.
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fuChris said:
Any other ideas i missed?
I like your deliberations but the racial skill of Academy is known... Sort of. We know that it's called Metamagic and it will cause some synergies between spells but what those synergies are and how to trigger them - this still remains unknown.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 02, 2015 11:00 AM |
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Elvin said:
Stevie, you are not in a position to judge others on having a clue. Also a hostile tone is unlikely to gain you any favours from the community or the mods.
I agree with Elvin here, and would like to cut things very clearly: Your post above is way over the line of accepted forum behaviour and if you continue posting like that, you will receive QP penalties. You are an old time member of the community, and this cannot come as a surprise for you.
____________
What will happen now?
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 11:09 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
fuChris said:
Any other ideas i missed?
I like your deliberations but the racial skill of Academy is known... Sort of. We know that it's called Metamagic and it will cause some synergies between spells but what those synergies are and how to trigger them - this still remains unknown.
i somehow missed it so thanks for the info! i wonder what dungeon is going to have then? something similar to H6 perhaps?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 02, 2015 11:17 AM |
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Hermes said:
i somehow missed it so thanks for the info! i wonder what dungeon is going to have then? something similar to H6 perhaps?
There are four factions in Ashan which racial skills are set in stone: Stronghold (Bloodrage), Necropolis (Necromancy), Inferno (Gating) and Fortress (Rune Magic). Racials of other factions vary across the games. I am pretty sure that in Heroes VII Dungeon and Sylvan will get something new.
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 11:25 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Hermes said:
i somehow missed it so thanks for the info! i wonder what dungeon is going to have then? something similar to H6 perhaps?
There are four factions in Ashan which racial skills are set in stone: Stronghold (Bloodrage), Necropolis (Necromancy), Inferno (Gating) and Fortress (Rune Magic). Racials of other factions vary across the games. I am pretty sure that in Heroes VII Dungeon and Sylvan will get something new.
well I think that Dungeon will have something similar to HVI, making units invisible and some bonuses for that or something similar but for the Sylvan I'm looking forward to since it wasn't in HVI
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 02, 2015 01:26 PM |
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I don't know whether it was somehow stated before, but in this interview Erwan promises that Random Map Generator will be implemented into the game but he doesn't state the exact time when it will be done.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 02, 2015 02:33 PM |
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I'll reserve my judgement until all racials are revealed. The perks look good in my opinion, but I wonder: will they work on any creature under your Haven hero command
I hope it doesn't overlap with Leadership
____________
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted May 02, 2015 03:35 PM |
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Edited by PandaTar at 15:40, 02 May 2015.
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I miss some real racial skills. The skills shown are faction skills. I would enjoy seeing skills determined by race, humans, elves, rakshasas, vampires ... it's pretty logical that a djinn hero should have different capabilities of a human hero, even equipment to wear, etc. It's a forlorn thought when you realize that the different heroes ... are no different at all, save from their specialization, names and photo; two of which don't have gameplay impact whatsoever.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2015 11:39 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
There are four factions in Ashan which racial skills are set in stone: Stronghold (Bloodrage), Necropolis (Necromancy), Inferno (Gating) and Fortress (Rune Magic). Racials of other factions vary across the games. I am pretty sure that in Heroes VII Dungeon and Sylvan will get something new.
Was Rune Magic completely set in stone? I don't remember what the Compendium said, and I don't have it with me, but they've only had 1 Heroes game with them so far, though i don't know how it played out for MMX. The others, though, I can agree with.
Heh. Runes. Set in stone.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 02, 2015 11:53 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 23:54, 02 May 2015.
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Protolisk said:
Was Rune Magic completely set in stone? I don't remember what the Compendium said, and I don't have it with me, but they've only had 1 Heroes game with them so far, though i don't know how it played out for MMX. The others, though, I can agree with.
Heh. Runes. Set in stone.
This made me laugh. 
Regarding Ashan Compendium - I have no idea, I have never seen it in my life. In M&M X Rune Lords (adnvanced Rune Priests) had a special ability that was called "Searing Fire", which created a rune on the battlefield that dealt damage to surrounding opponents. Moreover, Rune Priests and runes are mentioned in flavour text on the main M&M website, which is derived from the Ashan Compendium. Despite being present in just one game I feel that Rune Magic is going to stay with Dwarves in Ashan.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
