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| Thread: Women in heroes 7 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 17, 2015 05:56 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 09:57, 18 Feb 2015.
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Women in heroes 7
This has been on my mind for quite a long time and i feel it is an important discussion to have. I know it's a very hot or explosive subject right now but completely ignoring it because of one person shouldn't be case, especially in the current climate. So I've decided to make a thread about it mostly since i'm interested in what people around here think. so let's talk about it.
(if things go out of hand i guess termination would be necessary. i hope not though)
I'd like to begin with looking at the different factions and their lineups since this is where the overall feel or look or thoughts of a faction will be known, starting with Necropolis for simplicity's case.
NECROPOLIS
Necropolis is a classic heroes faction with dead people. as a result, gender isn't important since, hey, they're all dead. no flesh or features to show or allow gender to be a thing. With Ashan this is no longer the case since everything has skin and is not even dead in many ways so gender is suddenly something that comes up. Now I've made my thoughts pretty clear: i like female units and i think there should be about a 50/50 ratio of male/female humanoids/primary race in any lineup. so how does this fare in Necropolis and is there any weird or bad things in the lineup?
Core lineup has two humanoids: the skeleton and ghost. Out of these two the skeleton is as far as we can tell genderless and the ghost is female.
ghost. Ooooooh, spooky
Elite lineup has two more humanoids, the Lich and Vampire and they are both indistinguishably male.
Liches used to be genderless
Vampires. don't you miss a classical look?
Champion tiers has one humanoid, the grim rider, who could be either way since it's heavily armoured and doesn't have a face meaning it could be either or neither so i will ignore it for now as it's supposed to be more of a concept rather than a character which is fine since it doesn't have many characteristics besides "death".
So necro has 2/1 male/female ratio which in my eyes is acceptable. while earlier iterations were way better about this with heroes 3 having one with distinguishable gender (i'm ignoring h1-2 for simplicity and because h3 is where most found the franchise etc. etc.) due to everyone being either monstrous (vamp, wraith) or bones (most of the rest). Zombies were male but they were also rotting corpses and very much faceless mooks with no identity and since they're zombies it's ok (this will come up in the have faction, just wait). In h4 we have a (necro part, not demons) 2/2 female/male ratio if we're counting neutrals (zombies, mummies) which is an improvement (Mummies appears to be male, so i count them. could be 2/1 ratio). There the female ghost showed up for the first time, supposedly based on the ghostly woman trope/stereotype which makes sense since the vampire was also a stereotypical movie vampire, explaining it's own gender. they're both references to something gender specific making their genders somewhat important.
So necropolis in h7 is pretty reasonable to me. could be better (skeletal or Hel-inspired Liches is an idea) but overall pretty good. There isn't a reason for liches or vampires to be male since neither is a specific reference or legend unlike the ghost but it's nether particularly troubling.
on to...
ACADEMY
Academy is probably the best faction lineup for female units.
core has 2 humanoids: gargoyles and golems. The gargoyle is clearly a female while the Golem is very robotic and genderless.
gargoyle so sleek
elite has three humanoids: Rakshasa, Djinn and wiz apprentice. of these, apprentice and rakshasa are male while the djinn is female, leaving faction total at a 2/2 ratio. pretty great, right?
Djinn is pretty cool
Rakshasa's been working out
WizApprentice is darn classy
Champion has one humanoid: the mighty titan. It's a clear he and he's damn manly.
Titan's really manly
This ends the faction at a 2/3 male/female ratio and one of them, the titan, is a clear and gender-specific reference to old-school Greek mythology and earlier installments making its gender justified. This is pretty much what i want all factions gender distribution to look like more or less: about the same with at most a one creature difference preferably justified as a reference to myth/classic movies. there is some minor sex-appeal here with the djinn and Rakshasa (maybe titans but not really) but they're both tastefull and make stylistic sense with the faction feel and influences. Good job guys, solid A on this.
Haven
Ho boy, this is the big one.
Haven is a heavily humanoid faction with only one non-humanoid unit, the wolf. this means 7 humanoids in total with a 6/1 male/female ratio. Who is this female unit you might be asking yourself (you probably know, but hush! i'm making a narrative!). Why it's this lovely lady, of course:
This where haven is great: The guardian/justicar is snowing amazing. Fantastically designed with full armour, a covering helmet, sword and shield (totally the crusader of this game) and overall combat ready with absolutely nothing noting out her gender as something special. It's a she because why not? this is what every last creature in the lineup should be designed like and they mostly are. Except for one little difference. See if you can spot it.
 
 
 
All of these are male and humanoid and has on thing in common(except for Landsknecht but i'll come back to him specifically later); they're completely faceless. Everyone of them is male and this means they are "standard" and gender does not make them special. The Justicar, compared to these guys, flaunt her gender openly as her defining trait. This is what's so terrible about this lineup: being female is apparently special and worthy of mention. It shouldn't be. Swordmaster isn't, sure, but he's champion tier and super strong. That's his characteristic. Everyone has characteristics that doesn't equate their gender: one rides horses, one shoots a crossbow, one uses magicks while the Justicar is a girl. Do you see how this is troubling and outright bad? Don't get me wrong, I love the Justicar. She's amazing. I just want the rest to be more like her, showing their faces and letting the Justicar have her swordsmanship to define her. Some of the guys should gender-bend, sure, but frankly showing their face would be enough as it would equate them with her.
So that's my thoughts on genders in the h7 factions so far. frankly i find it mostly good, at least compared to other games. especially impressive it's by ubi"women are too hard to animate"soft but i would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. What do you think and what do you find troubling/great? As a ninteen year old straigh white male i would also like to hear what any women has to say as i don't really have that point of view myself. Any thoughts and discussion would be great 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 17, 2015 05:58 PM |
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Use a thumbnail of the Guardian instead of the full version, please.
Edit: and a space between pictures so they don't affect users with lower screen resolutions, please
Edit 2: Thank you!
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 06:19 PM |
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"Everyone has characteristics that doesn't equate their gender: one rides horses, one shoots a crossbow, one uses magicks while the Justicar is a girl"- do not understand that. Same can be said that justicar blows and cuts while landsknecht is a boy. Honestly, both of them are guite simlar- serve as swordsman (and someone could find fault that male swordsman is higher than his female counterpart)
Ghosts only in HoMM 5 were not females, djinns/genies were already female in HoMM 3 and HoMM 5. And honestly- the best djinns in the franchise were female/ So those units I would not put in gender discussion cause t is just how it is in M&M.
Gargoyles are just statutes, besides- we have almost all possible designes so this is somehow quite new. Personally prefer more traditional demon- looking like those from HoMM 2 and 3.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted February 17, 2015 06:27 PM |
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I'd have preferred a female vampire, I never liked the idea of a male vampire, somehow they seem weak in my mind (not the actual unit, but the concept they present).
I'd also have gone for a male djinn, but that's mainly because of a cartoon I used to watch where they introduced a girlfriend to the djinn and it got weird for me.
In general for me, if the unit is humanoid (non-humanoid units could also be females, but there it's more a matter of tradition, like medusa), then female usually fits best if the unit uses special effects, sneaky methods and are in general scary or perhaps mysterious. It's just a role where I see female more, because it's more a matter of trickery and outsmarting the opponent than brute force. E.g. the vampire in HoMM 3 is powerful because of life drain, but take that away and it has the worst stats of any level 4 units.
But I also like female units that breaks conventions and show there's room for both genders, like it's the case with the Haven girl in full plate, ready with sword and shield.
Btw. the female unit of haven is obviously overpowered. We know from hard evidence that a thong made of iron on a female is as effective as a full plate male on a male. Now we've a female in full plate armor? That's like a gazilion thongs she's wearing at the same time.
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Living time backwards
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 06:55 PM |
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 --> First of all, I'd like my thoughts on this matter to be taken as my very own personal opinion. I hereby point out that I mean no offence to anyone and that, honestly, I am no sexist.
@OhforfSake
In general I agree with all you'said, apart from the male djinn matter. Still, it's only a matter of personal preference...
I liked the H5 Dungeon matriarch-oriented lineup/society. Do not forget that this kind of social structure has been a fact for some human cultures in the past and is evident nowadays in many fauna species. I think women are the essense and spice of life: they give birth, they get loved, they can teach, they can fight, they can do almost everything in real life, why not ingame, too?
I find nothing wrong in mixed gender lineups, for the sake of diversity. And, given the fact we have seen all-male lineups (e.g. H5 Fortress), why don't we get to have an all female one in the future, too...
Don't get me wrong, I found the s&m theme of H5 Dungeon a bit too much (even if I kind of liked it ).
In conclusion, females can be tender or they can be cruel. Whether I like a female unit or not depends on how good it is implemented ingame (visually and in terms of motion, skills etc), and the same is valid for male and mechanical and beasty units, as far as I'm conserned.
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To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 07:05 PM |
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I never have a problem with any units being female, but I do hate it when the women are not properly dressed for battle. Like the sisters, snow maidens, and succubus in h6. Or like most of the dark elf ladies in H5. Female units shouldn't be eye candy.
Having a certain ratio for males and females isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it shouldn't affect the units in a line up. For example, stronghold doesn't have a whole lot of female candidates but I don't want them to force the harpy in the line up, just because it can fit a 'female' slot.
Ubi seems to have this habit of making naked 'spirit' girl units. I'm talking about radiant glory, spring spirit, water and light elementals, and quite possibly the upcoming dryad. Some naked chick made up of an element is not good unit designs imho.
With what has been revealed so far, I really like what I see. Justicar looks exactly what I would want out of a female unit. Armor, weapons, and nothing inappropriate is revealing. Academy's djinns look nice, though I wouldn't have gone with free flowing hair. Major upgrade from h6 already. All I hope is for that boobplate to get redesigned 
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 07:09 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
...Like the sisters, snow maidens, and succubus in h6. Or like most of the dark elf ladies in H5. Female units shouldn't be eye candy...
...Some naked chick made up of an element is not good unit designs imho.
Totally agree on these.
That's why I said"...depends on how good it is implemented ingame"
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To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 17, 2015 07:22 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Use a thumbnail of the Guardian instead of the full version, please.
Edit: and a space between pictures so they don't affect users with lower screen resolutions, please
better? don't see how it would matter but then again i know nothing about this stuff.
JotunLogi said:
"Everyone has characteristics that doesn't equate their gender: one rides horses, one shoots a crossbow, one uses magicks while the Justicar is a girl"- do not understand that. Same can be said that justicar blows and cuts while landsknecht is a boy. Honestly, both of them are guite simlar- serve as swordsman (and someone could find fault that male swordsman is higher than his female counterpart)
Ghosts only in HoMM 5 were not females, djinns/genies were already female in HoMM 3 and HoMM 5. And honestly- the best djinns in the franchise were female/ So those units I would not put in gender discussion cause t is just how it is in M&M.
Gargoyles are just statutes, besides- we have almost all possible designes so this is somehow quite new. Personally prefer more traditional demon- looking like those from HoMM 2 and 3.
let's start with the Haven one here. The difference is almost exclusively in presentation: we don't see the males face/bodies and as such we can only use their equipment etc. to get characteristics (swordmaster has "fckn champion"as characteristic). the Justicar having a sword and shield, which is the most standard equipment possible removing any good characteristic from weapon of choice. Since she is the only one with a face that's her characteristic and since her face shows it's a she, hence "it's a girl" being her primary characteristic. The other part about the swordmaster being similair and a step above is certainly a point to be made and i would mostly agree. Not sure how to elaborate on that.
to your academy stuff. do you mean h4 instead of 5? cause djinns (and ghosts) were male in 5, female in 4. i would also like to point out that i praised academy and necro (more so old necro) for their use (or lack of use) of gender. Djinns in heroes 3 are very troubling however since they are female but the upgrades are male. That is, in my opinion, much worse than swordmaster being a tier above justicars.
and while the gargoyle is a statue it's also a statue of a woman making it count for this discussion. i also prefer this to old demon gargoyle but not the time or place.
OhforfSake said:
I'd have preferred a female vampire, I never liked the idea of a male vampire, somehow they seem weak in my mind (not the actual unit, but the concept they present).
I'd also have gone for a male djinn, but that's mainly because of a cartoon I used to watch where they introduced a girlfriend to the djinn and it got weird for me.
i would enjoy seeing a female vampire but can't say i care that much and what cartoon was that?
OhforfSake said:
In general for me, if the unit is humanoid (non-humanoid units could also be females, but there it's more a matter of tradition, like medusa), then female usually fits best if the unit uses special effects, sneaky methods and are in general scary or perhaps mysterious. It's just a role where I see female more, because it's more a matter of trickery and outsmarting the opponent than brute force. E.g. the vampire in HoMM 3 is powerful because of life drain, but take that away and it has the worst stats of any level 4 units.
But I also like female units that breaks conventions and show there's room for both genders, like it's the case with the Haven girl in full plate, ready with sword and shield.
This is where i see much of the problems pop up: expectations of unit roles based on gender. Breaking conventions is good but not for the sake of breaking them. what i'm trying to say is gender shouldn't decide role for any unit and vice verse. when you make a unit, don't decide gender, randomize genders blindly instead. we could get some cool results from that.
OhforfSake said:
Btw. the female unit of haven is obviously overpowered. We know from hard evidence that a thong made of iron on a female is as effective as a full plate male on a male. Now we've a female in full plate armor? That's like a gazilion thongs she's wearing at the same time.
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted February 17, 2015 07:34 PM |
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Quote:
All of these are male and humanoid and has on thing in common(except for Landsknecht but i'll come back to him specifically later); they're completely faceless. Everyone of them is male and this means they are "standard" and gender does not make them special. The Justicar, compared to these guys, flaunt her gender openly as her defining trait. This is what's so terrible about this lineup: being female is apparently special and worthy of mention. It shouldn't be. Swordmaster isn't, sure, but he's champion tier and super strong. That's his characteristic. Everyone has characteristics that doesn't equate their gender: one rides horses, one shoots a crossbow, one uses magicks while the Justicar is a girl. Do you see how this is troubling and outright bad? Don't get me wrong, I love the Justicar. She's amazing. I just want the rest to be more like her, showing their faces and letting the Justicar have her swordsmanship to define her. Some of the guys should gender-bend, sure, but frankly showing their face would be enough as it would equate them with her.
I don't agree with this entirely. Don't get me wrong though, I love the Justicars, and the fact that they are strong females in an otherwise male dominated society, which Haven is, considering they are based on medieval Europe, and the fact that they are female is a significant part of their identity. For me this is part of their charm; it makes her feel special. So no, the fact that she is the only non-champion human unit whose face is shown does not bother me.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 07:38 PM |
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Still not get about justicar, the fact that she shows face does not change anythng (and also chaplain or this priest- not upraded version also has face uncovered);/ I would ather compain that she looks more like some battle priestess than knight with that pose and helmet... and that she has beter armour than cavalryman....
Yeah I meant Heroes 4 when it comes to djinns (HoMM 5 djinns were dsaster), in ghots I have written that in HoMm 5 they were male.
statue is just a statue, it must looks somehow.. now it looks a bit like a harpy and by that it is more like predator hunting on its prey  In HoMM 3 water and ice elementals are female but I never thought about them as women (just as elementals that look female)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 17, 2015 07:42 PM |
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I might be misunderstanding something, but can you explain how the Chaplain and the Landsknecht are more "faceless" than the Justicar?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 17, 2015 07:58 PM |
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verriker said:
I might be misunderstanding something, but can you explain how the Chaplain and the Landsknecht are more "faceless" than the Justicar?
the landsknecht was an exception (pretty sure i said that. maybe should've been clearer?) and has other things to differentiate the presentation from the Justicar.
When i say faceless i don't necessarily mean "no face", just that the face is hidden in some capacity which the chaplain does and is as such, faceless.
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GenYAarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 09:08 PM |
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the Seraph may be female, they all have been female so far if the H5 is to be believed. Depends of how it sounds
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 17, 2015 09:40 PM |
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Kronos1000 said:
I don't agree with this entirely. Don't get me wrong though, I love the Justicars, and the fact that they are strong females in an otherwise male dominated society, which Haven is, considering they are based on medieval Europe, and the fact that they are female is a significant part of their identity. For me this is part of their charm; it makes her feel special. So no, the fact that she is the only non-champion human unit whose face is shown does not bother me.
I feel you're aiming more for the 6/1 ratio rather than individual designs of the units and in that case i understand where you're coming from and i would agree if not for the case that Ashan Haven never felt very male-dominated to me. If it was male-dominated i would have next to no problem with one female unit but as i said, i don't get that feeling. besides it doesn't change that she's the only (non-champion) unit with a face which is the biggest problem. but i see your point.
GenYAarikado said:
the Seraph may be female, they all have been female so far if the H5 is to be believed. Depends of how it sounds
they really don't look female to me. It couldbe but i really doubt it considering the very masculine design. frankly i wouldn't mind them reusing the h6 seraph since the model was pretty great.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 09:41 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
I'd have preferred a female vampire
Are you recently divorced?
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GenYAarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 10:11 PM |
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i prefer the ambiguity of H5 and H7, although i like the H6 just the same.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted February 17, 2015 10:16 PM |
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Well I will try to give the female perspective here - as best I can.
First off, I have never really cared one hoot about gender in games. But I can, however, understand the need to represent the sexes more fairly. Simply because its the fair and honest thing to do. That said, I have always been dismayed by the ridiculous 'female eye candy' that most female characters are in games. They are an embarrassment and only there for the 'game boys who still live in mommas basement'. If a game was designed whereby all the males only wore alluring codpieces and spent their time pouting and oohing every time they did something - most guys would be up in arms and calling the game 'gay'. So lets not do it to the girls either please.
For us girls who do play games, we are as serious as guys about our heroes, characters etc. Primarily we play because we want a great game, great strategy, and to win. If I want to plait a pony's hair, I would go somewhere else. When I play Civ, I don't just stick to female characters. Like everyone else, I am working out who might have the best resources/equipment/stats etc. Not their gender.
Now for the more general part. This is 2015, not 1960. Gender stereotypes should not be lauded in computer games. We need to get passed all the old fashioned androcentric mind sets. If you seriously cannot stand a game because the main character is female, or a particular female unit is stronger/better/faster than a male one - if you really are that fixated on the gender - then quite frankly you're wrong in the head. Maybe someone professional should have a little chat with you.
The reality is that games = fantasy. I am not going to outside and be attacked by a Vampire/Medusa/Titan. So all of the units should be equally distributed into male and female. And it doesn't matter one iota if in one faction we have female Titans and male Djinn, or vise versa. And if the selection of what female units to have causes a problem for people like Ubi etc, then just work out the units stats, close your eyes, shuffle and separate
I also couldn't give a damn about what percentage of females play Heroes. Who cares. All the guy gamer's I know love playing as female as much as male. Heroes is not some little enclave of sexists and misogynists who cannot understand/do not want to understand or accept any type of equality between the sexes. Well that is just tough, the world is evolving and people are becoming more educated regarding gender equality. You haters can be left behind. We are too busy having fun playing our games.
PS. I agree with Forfy. I have always wanted a female vampire, mainly because I think the artwork would look a hell of a lot better. Just my opinion.
Oh and Seraphs are gender-less, like angels. They are just based on Christianity's androgynous heavenly beings.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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GenYAarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2015 10:31 PM |
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based doesnt mean same and in Ashan they arent. Although i like them looking androgynous for that reason
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 01:33 AM |
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Actually I'd say that in most cases it is kinda hard to say if a creature is male or female,because they are entirely covered in armor.
The armor of these faceless goons neither looks really male or female and I think they actually tried to go with a gender neutral look for the armor.
The_Green_Drag said:
I never have a problem with any units being female, but I do hate it when the women are not properly dressed for battle. Like the sisters, snow maidens, and succubus in h6.
I actually think those are good exceptions,I mean the priests or chaplains aren't dressed for battle either,so why should the sister be dressed for battle?If the sisters would run around in armor,it would look out of place(not to mention that the sisters might lack the physical strenght to wear armor like that)
Yuki-onnas are spirits,putting them into an armor would be like putting armor onto a jinn or a ghost.
And Succubi are kinda justified in looking sexy,because they are basically sex-demons and use their allure to hypnotize their enemies(not to mention that other demons don't wear armor either,I mean guys like the juggernaut are completely naked)
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shadowdust
Hired Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 04:24 AM |
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Greenlore said:
The_Green_Drag said:
I never have a problem with any units being female, but I do hate it when the women are not properly dressed for battle. Like the sisters, snow maidens, and succubus in h6.
I actually think those are good exceptions,I mean the priests or chaplains aren't dressed for battle either,so why should the sister be dressed for battle?If the sisters would run around in armor,it would look out of place(not to mention that the sisters might lack the physical strenght to wear armor like that)
Yuki-onnas are spirits,putting them into an armor would be like putting armor onto a jinn or a ghost.
And Succubi are kinda justified in looking sexy,because they are basically sex-demons and use their allure to hypnotize their enemies(not to mention that other demons don't wear armor either,I mean guys like the juggernaut are completely naked)
Yeah none inferno's units wear armor or full armor.
All other elemental spirit is naked so I never make a big deal about it, but I understand why someone can annoying by them.
Personally I would like they add more six packs, girls need eye candy too *wink wink*
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