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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 421 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 80 160 240 320 400 ... 417 418 419 420 421 · «PREV / NEXT»
anl93
anl93


Hired Hero
posted November 16, 2020 05:39 PM

im not playing campaign.
Still should i wait for a stable RC14 version?
It seems it took forever between to stable versions. Unfortunately.
Thanks.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 16, 2020 06:46 PM bonus applied by Galaad on 16 Dec 2020.
Edited by Galaad at 23:18, 16 Dec 2020.

Mod Edit: +QP awarded for contribution to the mod

anl93 said:
im not playing campaign.
Still should i wait for a stable RC14 version?
It seems it took forever between to stable versions. Unfortunately.
Thanks.


It's like a good meal: it takes patience

RC14 beta 4 is totally playable. Very rare inconsequential bugs here and there. New features are being worked on, hence not final yet...

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Saulor
Saulor

Tavern Dweller
posted November 17, 2020 06:29 AM

I played a bit and while it seems to have nice ideas like lowering the importance of attack and deff atributes and nerfing some OP things like archane archers or marksmen, I'd like to share my experiences and thoughts on some things.

I think the +20% health is very nice for the lower level creatures, it creates nice scenarios both in creeping and in final battles, with longer melee battles and slow walkers being more important, but I feel it shouldn't be a thing in T6 and T7. They become too tough, mainly T7, their numbers take longer to go down, hence the stacks loose eficiency way slower than those of lower tier.

Example: the amount of damage needed to reduce the health of a T7 by half produces several loses in a t1 unit stack, so in the next turn the T7 stack Will do full damange while the T1 stack will have less units and do less damage. In this case, the 20% extra life helps them more. Plus they have better stats, so extra HP benefits them more.

Then comes one of my biggest problems with the mod which is the magic schools rework, taking for example dark magic, it is heavily modified compared to the TOE counterpart; I don't understand very well why blind or puppet master can't be there, neither why frenzy must last 1 turn instead of 2 (that created an interesting potential backfire mechanic), why mass confusion is so rare to get and why it is that hard to make it neutralize ranged and retaliations by 100%, etc.

I think it was nice having actually powerful and menacing spells before in dark magic; they could be cleansed, cleared with magic inmunity, and even the tent and the paladin's special.

I like the idea of spellpower having a bigger role and higher mana costs, so people can't just learn all might skills and then either light or dark and tear through everything with bad spellpower and/or knowledge. I still wonder if sometimes it isn't too much, but I guess I should strive for playing with 8 skill slots so I can pick every cost reduction or extra mana perk, and I like those pesky might players not being able to cast a frenzy spell.

Then, necromancy; I never thought the old one was particularly strong, raising 4 wraiths extra a week once you were relatively high level and had the pillar, when other factions had runes, bloodrage, training, artificer, etc, never felt that strong, so cutting it almost a 50% felt odd to me.
Though then again if all other factions had their racial nerfed then it might have been powerful in comparison (I know runes and bloodrage were, but I am not so sure about others yet). I wonder if we could ever try a skeleton only necromancy but limited by points (of course the limitation wouldn't be near as harsh as it is now).



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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 17, 2020 10:18 AM

Saulor said:
I played a bit and while it seems to have nice ideas like lowering the importance of attack and deff atributes and nerfing some OP things like archane archers or marksmen, I'd like to share my experiences and thoughts on some things.

I think the +20% health is very nice for the lower level creatures, it creates nice scenarios both in creeping and in final battles, with longer melee battles and slow walkers being more important, but I feel it shouldn't be a thing in T6 and T7. They become too tough, mainly T7, their numbers take longer to go down, hence the stacks loose eficiency way slower than those of lower tier.

Example: the amount of damage needed to reduce the health of a T7 by half produces several loses in a t1 unit stack, so in the next turn the T7 stack Will do full damange while the T1 stack will have less units and do less damage. In this case, the 20% extra life helps them more. Plus they have better stats, so extra HP benefits them more.

Then comes one of my biggest problems with the mod which is the magic schools rework, taking for example dark magic, it is heavily modified compared to the TOE counterpart; I don't understand very well why blind or puppet master can't be there, neither why frenzy must last 1 turn instead of 2 (that created an interesting potential backfire mechanic), why mass confusion is so rare to get and why it is that hard to make it neutralize ranged and retaliations by 100%, etc.

I think it was nice having actually powerful and menacing spells before in dark magic; they could be cleansed, cleared with magic inmunity, and even the tent and the paladin's special.

I like the idea of spellpower having a bigger role and higher mana costs, so people can't just learn all might skills and then either light or dark and tear through everything with bad spellpower and/or knowledge. I still wonder if sometimes it isn't too much, but I guess I should strive for playing with 8 skill slots so I can pick every cost reduction or extra mana perk, and I like those pesky might players not being able to cast a frenzy spell.

Then, necromancy; I never thought the old one was particularly strong, raising 4 wraiths extra a week once you were relatively high level and had the pillar, when other factions had runes, bloodrage, training, artificer, etc, never felt that strong, so cutting it almost a 50% felt odd to me.
Though then again if all other factions had their racial nerfed then it might have been powerful in comparison (I know runes and bloodrage were, but I am not so sure about others yet). I wonder if we could ever try a skeleton only necromancy but limited by points (of course the limitation wouldn't be near as harsh as it is now).



I must agree Frenzy duration feels too short now. But other changes in magic schools are well-justified and Dark magic is very potent.

I also think your idea on skeleton-only Necromancy has merit but I would like a more colorful Necromancy than that. One idea could be to Necro all T1-2 into skeletons and all T6-7 into Wraiths. This would help consolidate Necro armies while still being able to build stacks of Ghosts, Vampires and/or Liches. I don't think anyone will miss their Zombies or Bone Dragons...

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 17, 2020 04:33 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 16:39, 17 Nov 2020.

frenzy is very powerful for 2 reasons: it is immune to cleansing and it boost dmg so it is already like stealing 1.5 instead of 1 turn from the enemy's best stack!

If a magic school has multiple spells that do almost the same thing frenzy, puppet, blind, sorrow etc. they will become redundant. It is much better to divide spells over schools so that each school has different tools available. For example Dark in TOE is completely pointless against necro, now it isn't because of phantom forces.

the necromancy values are currently very precisely calculated to represent the strength of the skillslots invested, but necro creatures were boosted compared to TOE to compensate (in TOE necro was deliberately overpowered to make up for underpowered creatures), (not talking about HP boost), bone dragons are much more powerful, zombies more useful etc.

EDIT: with regards to unit HP, take in mind because A & D have been nerfed from 5% to 2.5% to lower shooter dominance and excessive first turn luck dominance, high tier creatures were already nerfed compared to lower, so the HP effect is a welcome addition to have them gain that back
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azalen
azalen


Responsible
Known Hero
posted November 18, 2020 03:46 AM

magnomagus said:
frenzy is very powerful for 2 reasons: it is immune to cleansing and it boost dmg so it is already like stealing 1.5 instead of 1 turn from the enemy's best stack!

If a magic school has multiple spells that do almost the same thing frenzy, puppet, blind, sorrow etc. they will become redundant. It is much better to divide spells over schools so that each school has different tools available. For example Dark in TOE is completely pointless against necro, now it isn't because of phantom forces.

the necromancy values are currently very precisely calculated to represent the strength of the skillslots invested, but necro creatures were boosted compared to TOE to compensate (in TOE necro was deliberately overpowered to make up for underpowered creatures), (not talking about HP boost), bone dragons are much more powerful, zombies more useful etc.

EDIT: with regards to unit HP, take in mind because A & D have been nerfed from 5% to 2.5% to lower shooter dominance and excessive first turn luck dominance, high tier creatures were already nerfed compared to lower, so the HP effect is a welcome addition to have them gain that back


I personally think the Dark Changes have been excellent.  It definitely feels more Might focused now with Phantasmal Forces and Vampirism... Demon and Dungeon Might heroes have benefitted greatly from the changes and are pretty scary... just the way it should be.  

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Saulor
Saulor

Tavern Dweller
posted November 18, 2020 10:25 AM
Edited by Saulor at 11:16, 18 Nov 2020.

Thank you all for your answers and kindness.

Thank you magnomagus for taking the time to answer, I apreciate a lot the effort you are making in the game and you and your team managed to archieve impresive things when modding.

As for the Gryph answer; definately raising zombies is not something I do much, and skeletons are very hard to get as T1 units are rare as neutrals in most maps, in vanilla TOE many units from T2 or even 3 (elven archers) provided skellies so you could get a bit more. Bone dragons are way too expensive to raise in 5.5.

I sometimes raised a few in TOE if the game was going to be long to keep up a little with my friends' T7 stacks that they got much earlier than me because of the ridiculous mercury and ore cost of the hight tier dwellings of Necropolis.

I am very glad you made bone dragons more accesible in the mod because this really hurt necropolis lategame, which wasn't great considering many other things as well. Once you were fast, the mercury and ore mines couldn't keep up with your advancement even if you had them in pairs.

Skeleton only necromancy is less colorful yes, I suggested it because I thought it could be easier to balance while still be and feel powerful as long as there is a limit of some short. I also liked the H4 necromancy, but perhaps it would be very hard to mimic.

The dark magic topic: In TOE magic was very thematic focused yes, unlike the elemental magic schools in H3, it is true most of the spells in dark followed the curse/inutilize in some way/mind control theme, it also had some unique spells like decay, vampirism or CoTN, but I thought that felt good and nice. In a test map for big battles I played with friends and myself, having both puppet master and frenzy on the field could be amazing.

While it is true frenzy can't be dispelled with cleanse, it can with vampirism, magical inmunity, paladin's special, neutralized with teleport, and most importantly it can be resisted with luck's magic resistance, unicorn and or artifacts. You can't always land it on the best stack, that depends on when the enemy hero turn comes, and the position of the units.

The other schools were also powerful when well utilized of course, though destructive was not that good if not dungeon if you knew how to play against it.

I think necropolis units being resistant to many strong dark spells was a nice touch (they still were vulnerable to a number of them), it feels great from a design point of view since they are wicked and supernatural creatures. But I admit phantom forces in dark as well as teleport can have it's charm and sometimes it can indeed be better than for example blind.

Zombies do feel stronger now, while still not great. I wonder to which point it is the +1 init or the fact that many of the changes to the game benefit them more than they do to other units. For example they have very poor A+D, so a nerf to A and D benefits them, same with HP, extra HP make them able to get more turns and take advantage of their numbers. I however noticed vampire princes and master liches are worse, and that's a pitty, my old necro games depended heavily on them.

I think magnomagus is right about the A+D and extra health issue in T7s, now that defense is worse bone dragons still feel very squishy even with extra health. On the other hand though, magma dragons are super beast mode.

As for last azalen comment: Vampirism was a dark spell in TOE too and was more powerful, though you got it with less probability, as there were 3 dark level 5 spells. It was indeed insane when might heroes used it, and I didn't like that much, nor do I like much that might heroes benefit from phantom forces ;IMO only a strong wizard should be able to make good use of dark magic, though this is a personal apreciation.


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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 18, 2020 10:48 AM

azalen said:
magnomagus said:
frenzy is very powerful for 2 reasons: it is immune to cleansing and it boost dmg so it is already like stealing 1.5 instead of 1 turn from the enemy's best stack!

If a magic school has multiple spells that do almost the same thing frenzy, puppet, blind, sorrow etc. they will become redundant. It is much better to divide spells over schools so that each school has different tools available. For example Dark in TOE is completely pointless against necro, now it isn't because of phantom forces.

the necromancy values are currently very precisely calculated to represent the strength of the skillslots invested, but necro creatures were boosted compared to TOE to compensate (in TOE necro was deliberately overpowered to make up for underpowered creatures), (not talking about HP boost), bone dragons are much more powerful, zombies more useful etc.

EDIT: with regards to unit HP, take in mind because A & D have been nerfed from 5% to 2.5% to lower shooter dominance and excessive first turn luck dominance, high tier creatures were already nerfed compared to lower, so the HP effect is a welcome addition to have them gain that back


I personally think the Dark Changes have been excellent.  It definitely feels more Might focused now with Phantasmal Forces and Vampirism... Demon and Dungeon Might heroes have benefitted greatly from the changes and are pretty scary... just the way it should be.  


I tried the new Overlords, they're a complete badass now

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azalen
azalen


Responsible
Known Hero
posted November 18, 2020 04:00 PM
Edited by azalen at 16:44, 18 Nov 2020.

Saulor,

I can agree with you, overall, that Necropolis could use a slight buff somewhere.  Their strength is creature special abilities, not brute force.  So, when, brute force was buffed via the HP buff, other factions moved ahead while they stood still.

Maybe buff ghost/bone dragons creature abilities somehow (don't make them physically stronger, but give them better specials) as they have always been a questionable investment in the early weeks.  Quite frankly, they were a skip for me until later in the game.  Giving them more powerful creature specials would suit the theme of the faction.  

Sorrow Strike level none (and only on a hit!) and Death Stare -1 Morale are kinda sad cookies.  I would consider making Death Stare "-2 Morale" or "-1 Morale and -1 Luck" and Sorrow Strike a higher spell level at least, so they are at least good enough to be focus fire targets.

But this is all just splitting hairs on game balance... the factions are very, very close to one another these days.  

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Saulor
Saulor

Tavern Dweller
posted November 18, 2020 05:30 PM
Edited by Saulor at 17:32, 18 Nov 2020.

azalen said:
Saulor,

I can agree with you, overall, that Necropolis could use a slight buff somewhere.  Their strength is creature special abilities, not brute force.  So, when, brute force was buffed via the HP buff, other factions moved ahead while they stood still.

Maybe buff ghost/bone dragons creature abilities somehow (don't make them physically stronger, but give them better specials) as they have always been a questionable investment in the early weeks.  Quite frankly, they were a skip for me until later in the game.  Giving them more powerful creature specials would suit the theme of the faction.  

Sorrow Strike level none (and only on a hit!) and Death Stare -1 Morale are kinda sad cookies.  I would consider making Death Stare "-2 Morale" or "-1 Morale and -1 Luck" and Sorrow Strike a higher spell level at least, so they are at least good enough to be focus fire targets.

But this is all just splitting hairs on game balance... the factions are very, very close to one another these days.  


Hmm this wasn't really a balance complaint, I haven't played nearly enough to understand the mod as much as the vanilla game (plus it is all the factions that changed...I need time to test that).This was more of a sharing of my first impressions, for whoever that wants to read.

Yes I played necro mostly in the mod, now I'm trying dungeon and academy. I can definately live with bone dragons being subpar; that being said I always thought that having them be 2/3rds the strength (In reality, it is less) other T7 but having a +1 growth building was not a good design choice… See the H4 bone dragons? Those were the days. Though the changes you proposed are nice, I like the -2 morale since every living army gets +2 morale practically for free.

In reality, I enjoy the mod greatly, I alredy complimented some things bout the mod, but there are many more I enjoy; for example more difficult first turn charges, luck changes, the amazing new arenas (the dragon utopias and abandoned mines are sick!), slower development and riskier creeping, how the team managed to program and include new abilities… As I said for now the only things I'm not convinced about are the magic schools and how necromancy doesn't feel very impactful. But I'll keep trying the thing, I am a bit too used to the vanilla game and want to experiment fresh stuff.


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azalen
azalen


Responsible
Known Hero
posted November 26, 2020 05:55 PM

Few heroes I like

Been eyeballing the mod 14 changes for some hero synergies to try out...

One hero that caught my eye is Vidomina: Hero special Lich recruitment, starting with Occultism offers a fast path to Cult Master, and already built-in Raise Dead and Dark Magic.  Sounds like a nice combo for a big stack of Lich Master & Raise Dead combination.  Not dominant or anything because of Lich big size deficiency on blocking, but a nice combo.

Another hero I like is Mephala: She starts with Logistics and War Machines (great starting combo).  I think Treant retaliation strike builds are going to be more desirable with the HP change, and she is setup quite well for such a build.  Her hero defense hero multiplies with take roots, moving to Ranger class further increases defense, and she has a fast path to first aid tent and double ballista.  A bit slow in the beginning to get going, but worth a try.

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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 12, 2020 09:38 PM

I mainly play vs AI so this may be skewed, but man, why are T7 units so weak in this game? You work so hard to get a couple and then they can barely chew through the hundreds of lower tier units, while taking heavy damage in the process.

I expected T7 should be a big step up, like in all other heroes games given how hard it is to get them, but here, unfortunately they do not shine. You can have like 4 dragons and their damage output cannot effectively kill some 100 zombies.

The other big weakness of high tier units, is how easily they are killed by the hero. no matter how tanky your unit is, the enemy hero will always kill a fixed number, which is actually very detrimental to high tier units.

Make T7 do more damage please.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 13, 2020 12:40 AM

Interesting, there are now 2 comments on this page about t7, one that says t7 are too strong, the other one that says they are too weak.

BTW, zombies are supposed to be hard to kill, that is really the only quality they have.
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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2020 01:37 AM

magnomagus said:
Interesting, there are now 2 comments on this page about t7, one that says t7 are too strong, the other one that says they are too weak.

BTW, zombies are supposed to be hard to kill, that is really the only quality they have.



It's not just zombies. Any large stack of low tier units will be the same, your damage to them will be low and their retaliation will take great chunks of your health back.

Don't know about others and why they think T7 is too strong. I come from H2-4 mainly and the top tier units were absolute powerhouses in those games, being absolute game changes at the cost of being hard to get. In H5.5 they still are pretty hard to get, but are not that impactful. My T7 stack is always average at best in damage and dies fairly fast. Strongest stacks end up being somewhere in the T4-6 range, depending on the town.

Heroes kill them so easily. One attack from the hero kills at least 1 T7 unit - in a battle, that adds up quickly, given how few of them you have. Then when, I have to deal with large stacks of low tier units, I can never dent them properly. In H3, 4 Dragons would dumpster any 100 stack of T1 or T2 with ease (even as a one-shot sometimes, if my hero had strong attack), here not so much - you barely do damage.

I feel like H5.5 balance tries to make all weekly growth of units more comparable in power to each other, which does not take into account that high tier units are much harder to obtain and come much later in the game.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 13, 2020 02:07 AM

I'm not sure you are already playing the beta with the HP upgrade, but currently for comparison H3 black dragon has same HP as H55 = 300HP, H55 has significantly more damage 45-70 vs 40-50 and also +5D +5A, they should kill way more T1 in comparison to zombies.
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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2020 01:15 PM
Edited by okrane at 13:18, 13 Dec 2020.

Ok - just a rough test here. First screenshot is from my current game, second is just a thing I put together with a map made by me for testing.
Heroes have the same Attack/Defense and fighting against neutrals.

2 Green Dragons vs Hunters

H5.5 : 112-187 dmg
https://ibb.co/n6SWK8g

H3 HotA : 180-225 dmg
https://ibb.co/qNqWZmJ

That's pretty much a 50% increase in minimum damage.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 13, 2020 03:08 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 15:12, 13 Dec 2020.

in h3 dragons are very similar, in h55 the sylvan ones have less dmg for more initiative, but in this case a similar amount of hunters is killed anyway.

in H3 +12A increases all dmg more, causing might vs magic balance to go out of whack and shooters become too strong. but this applies to everyone not just the dragons.
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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2020 03:36 PM

magnomagus said:
in h3 dragons are very similar, in h55 the sylvan ones have less dmg for more initiative, but in this case a similar amount of hunters is killed anyway.


Thats not right. It's not a similar number of hunters. There were only 8 in the H3 stack and all would die in that strike. In H3 the green dragons I showed would kill 12-17 rangers (should the stack be big enough) while in H5.5 only 6-11 would die. That's massive difference.

magnomagus said:

in H3 +12A increases all dmg more, causing might vs magic balance to go out of whack and shooters become too strong. but this applies to everyone not just the dragons.


Yes, This is the core problem. The scaling of might in H5.5 is weaker and this impacts T7 units disproportionately. A T7 unit has a very high attack score compared to the defense of weak low-tier units but because this difference doesnt contribute as much to damage as in the past games they end up under-performing.

Also as I mentioned, they are a lot more vulnerable to being killed by heroes who kill 1 unit on each attack no matter their HP/Defense. So they end up flimsy compared to other games where they dominate the battlefield.

Try it out yourself - build some test army stacks, take into account the fact that you get dragons a few weeks later vs low tier units (so adjust their stack size accordingly) and see how little they do (Compared to what one would expect coming from H3).

In my games, they die fast and do little damage, while my best powerstacks are always in the T4-6 range (depending on the town)

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 13, 2020 04:09 PM

you are right I missed the stacks h3 hunter stacks were too small,
but what I tried to tell you with last sentence is dmg scales slower for T7 but also for T1, so T1 is also doing less dmg. making the t7 dmg still strong in comparison.

I have done lots of duel testing and noticed already t5-7 stacks are more dominant now compared to lower tiers, if this gets worse it makes hero battles more like 3 vs 3 pawns games, which is much less interesting as 7 vs 7 pawns.
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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2020 04:38 PM

magnomagus said:
you are right I missed the stacks h3 hunter stacks were too small,
but what I tried to tell you with last sentence is dmg scales slower for T7 but also for T1, so T1 is also doing less dmg. making the t7 dmg still strong in comparison.




If you account for how much marginal damage 1 point of attack from the hero adds to units, yes, it's smaller across the board. But you must also take into account that T7 units naturally have a lot of extra attack skill themselves, which you pay for (in gold and building setup/time). It being diminished makes them comparably worse.


magnomagus said:

I have done lots of duel testing and noticed already t5-7 stacks are more dominant now compared to lower tiers, if this gets worse it makes hero battles more like 3 vs 3 pawns games, which is much less interesting as 7 vs 7 pawns.


Well, ultimately it's up to you.

My experience has been with maps against the computer where low tier units are abundant and high tier ones less so (due to build costs and time), while in the duel games you have something like 10x weeks growth across all tiers.




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