|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
posted January 10, 2016 12:17 PM |
|
|
@dredknight: take in mind the guy was talking about TOE, I nerfed luck and calculated it very precisely, this skill is ok. Also because attack primary skill dmg multiplier is down to 0.33 from 0.5 all combat is slowed down! this weakens shooters and helps melee units.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
Nordos
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 12:18 PM |
|
|
Well~ Destro is fine in the beginning, but sucks in lategame. So it's all well.
Rather than a Destro Dungeon Hero, a Dark Dungeon Hero with Occultism, Decay, Frenzy, Vampirism is faaaaaaaar more dangerous and, in case of Vampirism, tends to loose less than a Destro Dungeon Hero. (well, I could try playing them again. Maybe I am underestimating them after all)
That said, Inferno can be strong - but looses a lot. It is pretty similar to Slyvan, but:
- Shooter are one Tier later
- Imps have Retaliation
- Hounds have next to no health. The Slyvan Archer equivalent can be walled off, suffering less.
- Succubi don't deal as much damage as Hunter (growth per week), in my opinion anyway.
Once you get Urgash Call, it completely turns, though. They become one of the stronges, loosing very few creatures and crushing opponents with huge numbers. Due to the high Ini, most Inferno creatures tend to be the first to take action - aka summoning.
All in all: Inferno is strong when you have bigger map. Small maps depends - since they have dark and destro (destro good early, after all), you may be able to break through early and use the superior numbers (summoning) to throw your opponent into disarray.
Magno: Don't forget, that Earth don't get retaliation if the opponent is slowed! Combine it with their ini increase and the decreased enemy ini ... Especially against slow things like Zombies, they can attack 2-3 times (depending on moral), cursing them into oblivion while killing nearly every single of them.
I wouldn't say they are overpowered, but they are more powerful than Sky, which would get retaliation and doesn't debuff
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 12:39 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
@dredknight: take in mind the guy was talking about TOE, I nerfed luck and calculated it very precisely, this skill is ok. Also because attack primary skill dmg multiplier is down to 0.33 from 0.5 all combat is slowed down! this weakens shooters and helps melee units.
ah yes forgot about that  .
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 01:43 PM |
|
Edited by thGryphn at 13:54, 10 Jan 2016.
|
magnomagus said:
@dredknight: take in mind the guy was talking about TOE, I nerfed luck and calculated it very precisely, this skill is ok. Also because attack primary skill dmg multiplier is down to 0.33 from 0.5 all combat is slowed down! this weakens shooters and helps melee units.
I just watched all the battle videos posted by Belisarius, and it still seems like:
1) Dungeon is overpowered. Grim Raiders, Foul Hydra and Shadow Matriarch are still plain sick!
2) Luck multiplier is still very high, making it too much of a decisive skill.
3) Inferno is still easily decimated. I understand the argument with Urgash's Call, but then it means the whole faction is reliant on one skill. Make or break. I rather have Urgash's Call nerfed, and the faction boosted to do well without it (and not OP with it).
4) Shooters like Shadow Matriarch and Elven shooters may need a nerf down. Did you see the video where 78 Shadow Matriarch kills about 38,310 Skeleton Warriors without breaking a sweat?
The "Lethos vs Mephala", "Eruina vs Irina" and "Jenova vs Crag Hack" matches highlight these observations...
Edit: I would really love to see the cumulative changes on stats and skills. I believe it would be some great information for anyone who is newly interested in this mod (like me).
____________
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 02:23 PM |
|
|
@Nordos: do the math for casting haste on self = 16-18 initiative for rest of battle, while earth is stuck at 14
@ThGryph: For luck you have to do the math, assessing balance on gut feelings is mostly bad. The avg dmg boost over the entire combat is now roughly the same as offense skill.
There will be some nerfs to dungeon in next version:
Fury growth will be back to 5, but the furies are weaker than sisters and will gain +1HP
stalkers will lose -1A,-1D
I need to fix whip strike on the matriarchs, but they probably need to lose some stats as well in return for getting no range penalty.
For inferno, the infernal loom will give new bonus to heroes without gating.
Quote:
Edit: I would really love to see the cumulative changes on stats and skills. I believe it would be some great information for anyone who is newly interested in this mod (like me).
Skills and spells are provided, for creatures I need an excel chart, but I have no time for that right now.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
lotihoti
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 02:30 PM |
|
|
True - i nerved them for my own and it feels right (a friend always plays dungeon and even as his favorite, he declared that they are a bit overpowered).
Even blood sisters speed is so ridicolous. They can count as shooters too. A faction with 3 shooters owns everything in this game (battle size, artifacts, high attack - def ratio (Ask yourself a question: What would you take from arena, def or attack?)).
Some spells are OP too.. Vampirism: You can win battles without losses with legion size armies which is a bit... weird - Thousands of troops and on one site there are no losses? Doesnt sound logical.
Btw:
Did you get any response from UBI dredknight regarding the source code?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 02:35 PM |
|
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 03:49 PM |
|
|
thGryphn said:
Edit: I would really love to see the cumulative changes on stats and skills. I believe it would be some great information for anyone who is newly interested in this mod (like me).
Check the facebook page -> https://www.facebook.com/mightandmagicheroes5.5
Go to photos -> albums. There you can see albums per factions with explanation for all creatures, faction classes and changes in the faction skills.
Currently I undergo the same thing for spells (there will be album for each school and inside you will be able to see all post-tote3.1 changes).
lotihoti said:
Btw:
Did you get any response from UBI dredknight regarding the source code?
Not yet.
thGryphn said:
1) Dungeon is overpowered. Grim Raiders, Foul Hydra and Shadow Matriarch are still plain sick!
That video was made before the Grim raider and vamprism nerf (RC2 or RC3 release).
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 04:59 PM |
|
|
Mostly Dungeon was played on those videos. Utilization of creature abilities and hero spells is huge. All videos are made in cases where battles were played almost perfectly. I can assure you that a lot of things could've gone wrong for Dungeon if only little mistakes were made. And there were "mistakes", only those replays are not in the videos that are uploaded. Sometimes battles were played several times until "proper" results were achieved.
I will try to make proper explanation for every battle in video comments below each video, that will put some light on each case.
Some examples of utilization of abilities and spells:
- Foul hydras (and deep h.): they have six headed attack and no ret. so they are strong to Teleport (instant tele or not) into enemy archers. Especially in case when other, stronger enemy units, cannot reach them. (in case either those units already used their turn or they just cant reach)
- Raiders have raider's byte, hitting any adjacent enemy unit, so in combo with sister's no ret. or minotaur's double hit, it can be devastating.
- Red dragons are not immune to magic, and they can use their spec. ability to hit adj. unit without ret. They can be resurrected, vampirism and raise dead can be used, and any other spell...
- Witches are strong unit, but not the strongest 6 lvl unit. On video with teleport, the main thing is utilization of this spell and not witches. If any other archers are used, with comparable number, they will do the job. And also this is a very special case because there are no other type of enemy units besides non-archer-skeletons. So it is a case when it is best not to use your whole army in battle but only your strongest archers with lot of mana for teleport.
I will try to do two things:
- give proper comments to videos
- upload videos with other races played, also giving good example of respective abilities and combos.
What I humbly conclude from those videos is that in MMH5.5 there are much more options to be played, and much more chances are given to use creature's abilities and hero's spells and spec. It is now possible to play let's say Dungeon (magic only race in vanilla) with a might or balanced hero and fully utilize it's battle mechanics. Similar goes with every other race.
Those videos that show other races are coming.
EDIT:
Ty thGryphn, and everybody, for watching those videos.
I would not say that "Lethos vs Mephala" video shows Dungeon or any of it's creatures are OP:
Lethos has 36 att; 33 def; 42 sp; 28 kn; 0 moral; 0 luck;
Mephala 28 def; 14 att; 26 sp; 19 kn; 4 moral; 5 luck;
Considering
- huge advantage in stats on Lethos side,
- comparable army sizes,
- teleport hydra blocked 3 stacks of Mephala's archers in first turn after her Dragons, Unicorns and Wind Dancers moved and before any archers stack can act...
Mephala and her Sylvan army gave a pretty decent fight later on. I'll give them credit for that. But if only her archers were not so immediately exposed, like Dragons and Dancer don't move right away...
"Eruina vs Irina" shows a good fight, both heroes have comparable att/def points, but Irina is not an Inferno hero. She does not have gating or any specialty related to creatures in her army. Neither does she have advantage in spell power, by not being a magic hero...
In "Jenova" video, among other things, Summoning Magic strength is shown in late game use. By using Phantom Forces on (considering level, probably) the best archers in the game. This video shows how with proper play Sylvan army is strong enough to stop Barbarian onslaught. As I said earlier, MMH5.5 gives the option for all races to be played in a Crag Hack style.
EDIT2:
If you still think Dungeon is OP, please check this video
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 05:35 PM |
|
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted January 10, 2016 10:02 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
I have written a new script that interprets all starting bonus patterns, now when you choose gold as starting bonus you get 3000-3500
and 5-8 for resources. 
Another red star for this man! NOW! 
@Besalius I agree with you. Plus some of the videos are made before some significant changes!
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
matod
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 08:03 AM |
|
|
|
magnomagus thats good cause even in impossible everyone pick artefact.
|
|
matod
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 08:56 AM |
|
|
|
Belisarius you can also sell erath elemntals as slaves and one cost 800 or 400 i am not sure now.. but that means with 30 elemntals per week you can have adtional income of 24000 and thats streight at day 1 (for 800 one) well thats good too ..
|
|
Nordos
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 10:20 AM |
|
|
I... I fear that I have to agree with matod.
Yesterday, me and my Brother played a match. I took Dungeon, he took Barb.
So, he now gets about 60 Earth Elementals (!) per week. He controls several heroes, for the sole purpose of getting shatter at advanced.
So, apparently, Barbs gain a huge advantage compared to other factions. Either the Shatter skill would need the summoning to be moved to expert (which wouldn't make that much of a difference, IMO), or, the barbs gain generally less elementals than other faction. As to say, Hall of xx shouldn't increase Elemental generation.
Though that would half way force Barbs to buy a lot of Heroes ... Dunno.
|
|
matod
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 10:25 AM |
|
|
|
like yes , heroes was allways about luck what you get and so on so ballance is very hard to maintain so i dont want to be in magnomagus position cause in random maps ist just impossible to get any balance , but this staff for barbarian earth elemntals its just game destroying or op as hell
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 11:21 AM |
|
|
|
matod
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 11:41 AM |
|
|
|
As for the archers units and melle > it depends on difficulty , ofc in impossible with strong monsters you dont wannt anything else thatn shooters.. but it lesser difficulties you can do 2 armies and defeat monsters even with melle units with more heroes and not just one there are melle units better so its difficulty depending staff. so hard to change
|
|
Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 02:22 PM |
|
|
@matod like I said ...
Belisarius said:
@matod I see your point. Never did included elementals in my observation. If magno decides to fix this, and finds a solution with taiga lands, excellent. Other than that, if he decides to change the way shatters function, I believe he should be very careful not to disturb the balance achieved with barbarians. Only to play-around with number of elementals granted with shatters on low level hero.
Anyway I believe magno will come up with a good solution, if he detects (he agrees with you) any problem existing.
|
|
adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 09:56 PM |
|
|
|
Hi! Is there any duel map for this mod (like Elvin's Duel Map 1.2 for example)? If not, any plans to make one?
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 11, 2016 11:32 PM |
|
Edited by thGryphn at 23:47, 11 Jan 2016.
|
Alright, after watching the videos in the light of all these explanations, I'm convinced that there are no glaring balance issues with 5.5   Thank you all!
Most, if not all TOE balance issues seems to have been addressed
A few questions though:
1) Why is it that Stronghold heroes have the exact same skill acquisition probabilities regardless of the type, the only difference being reduced to the starting skill? Don't you think that limits variability and hero development aligned with the type? By the way, does this mean that Veteran and Shaman cannot get Shout?
2) I noticed that hero types in some factions have varying level of access to the faction specialty skill. I'll cite them all now because it's fun
We talked about the Barbarians.
Necromancers also have 12% chance of getting Necromancy, regardless of the type.
Gating is popular among Inferno heroes, only the Sorcerer is reduced to 10%.
Dwarves also get a pretty balanced access to their Runelore specialty with 8%, 12% and 8% chance.
Then, things start getting interesting with Dungeon heroes getting 0%, 4% and 12% chance of getting Occultism. This one I understand and support, since Occultism is a purely magic skill. By the way, Warlock can get Necromancy, interesting stuff!
Next, Academy heroes have 10%, 12% and 0% for getting Artificer. I guess we can consider Artificer a might oriented skill, so this makes sense too. Again, Elementalist with Necromancy, cool really!
Next up, Haven with 12%, 8% and 0% for their Combat ability. Totally understood.
And finally come the Elves, with which I have issue. Their probability of getting the Avenger skill is 12%, 0% and 0%!! I really think that's not OK. Avenger skill is what should be running in the Elven blood. It's their defining skill, just like Bloodrage is to Barbarians, Necromancy is to Necros, Gating is to Inferno, and Runelore is to Dwarves.
I really really think all Elven heroes should get the Avenger skill with at least 8% probability.
3) Are you sure Shadow Matriarch's full-range bump was necessary?
Thanks again! I'm gonna start replaying the campaigns with this mod to see what changes. 
Edit: Also, may I suggest a name interchange, Sorcerer <-> Warlock
Warlock definitely has an evil magician meaning, which Dungeon heroes are not necessarily so. Sorcerer sounds too "good" for a magic hero from Sheogh...
Edit 2: Better yet, "Occultist" for the Dungeon magic hero! I mean, I think it'd be perfect.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
