Tiptoe_McGuffy said:

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@devilfire

I think the current system of schools being highly specialized actually helps diversity. When schools do different things instead of being mainly reskinned versions of each other, it encourages players to either pick one and make the most of it, or pick multiple schools and become much more versatile.

If one school was adequate at everything, then every hero would just be might skills + one magic school, regardless of class, which would be boring and repetitive. Now, becoming a fully fledged magic hero with multiple skills and schools is much more rewarding, and can lead to the summon and buff or other cool situations that you mentioned.

In Heroes III, the schools all have buffs, all have debuffs, all have damage. Some are more effective than others, but generally you don't need to take more than one unless you're doing a campaign or you want a specific spell from another school.
Where schools differentiated, it was often due to one or two key spells, which didn't even always need mastery to be good (Clone, Teleport, Blind, and adventure spells, among others)
Thus, making a magic hero competent in all the magic skills would have diminishing returns, since a might hero with one school could do most of the same job while having a far stronger army. So there was only one hero archetype that was really worth using.

That being said, the schools in V aren't completely one-sided.
Light can do offensive or defensive buffs, healing, manipulate the field, and damage, (Magical Immunity and is also kind of a wildcard)
Dark can debuff, damage directly or through enemy's units, and manipulate the field using Blind or Puppet to block off key movements or units.
Summoning is mainly about field control and, well, summoning, but it does also have a defensive buff and some damage (magno gave it firewall iirc)
Even destructive can debuff (deep freeze, master of fire) and control initiative a bit with Master of Ice or Storms.

In short, a specialized magic system makes developed magic heroes more worthwhile since they can do much more than a might hero with only one school.

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lotihoti said:

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You truly said so - all schools have the ability to buff, debuff and damage... So there is no difference between them... we want to try to change that.

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Rage of Elements would give a hefty damage increase otherwise.

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Concerning vampirism, perhaps it would be good to contextualize it, something like, if hero has expert level of dark, summoning and destructive magic, only then can effectiveness of vampirism can maximally be raised up to 75 % of damage dealt. If the hero has only dark magic, vampirism can only be raised up to 50 % damage dealt.

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devilfire said:

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- Endurance and Deflect Missile - they do the same thing in a same way (both of them are defensive mass buffs) but DM is useful only against few units in the game - most of the towns have 1 shooter and 1 caster. Casters are more likely to cast.

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devilfire said:

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- Divine Strength and Righteous Might - the first is situational, the second is good all around but essentially they do the same thing in a same way (offensive mass buffs), but more often than not we will see Righteous Might because it works for everyone, not just the high damage gap creatures.

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devilfire said:

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- Arcane Crystal and Blade Barrier - the main purpose is blocking with an object - essentially the same goal.

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devilfire said:

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- This is even more obvious with Destructive spells - Fireball have the perk support while other don`t (and yes, Fireball can deal a lot more damage because of empowered spells that add x1.5, luck that add x2 and ignite that add x2 over three turns, it can turn out that you can deal 6 times the normal damage over three turns, while others can deal up to 3 times the normal damage, not to mention Fireball have a better AoE).

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devilfire said:

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The only thing that really counters Fireballs is Fire Resistance, but then again, only 9 hero classes can take Shatter Light out of 22. not to mention it would be useless to take Shatter Light if you are not against a Light town. So most of the time you are going to see Fireballs all over the place while there will be no sight of the other elements (maybe some earth damage with Implosion and Meteor shower, but they don`t have the perk support too)

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devilfire said:

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All in all some spells function in the same way and are too similar in general and the one will always be better than the other if they have to compete for the same place.

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devilfire said:

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Now lets for example take Blade Barrier and give it to Light, but keep Arcane Crystal to summoning. You will use both depending on what school you have and it will unlock another option for you to use. Add to that the ice damage spells and perks. Now thats what I call a diversity. Now you will have to make a choice - do I need the slowing effect from the Master of Ice or I can pick another school that have slow in it, while using the Ice spells for the damage only.

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devilfire said:

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I will give you another example. You picked every Fire damage enhancing item and perk in the game, but you are against Fire resistance and Magic immune creatures....

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devilfire said:

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Another example - you decided to take every bit of magic resistance that you came across. You enter the final battles only to see that your opponent have Light and Summoning and you counter just a few spells of his entire skill set...

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devilfire said:

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Another good thing to mention is that now you pick Shatter Destructive spells and you are almost invulnerable to damage spells, so you are denying everyone who want to play as a damage dealing spell caster, while with a mixed system you will counter one damage type and a few useful spells, while letting your opponent play with a different damage type.

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devilfire said:

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For example you picked Fotress, which are highly resistant to Fire, now pick a Shatter Lightning and take Emerald slippers in your inventory. You are still vulnerable to Ice, so your opponent can still exploit that if he want. Its a chess like game.

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devilfire said:

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With the current system all you have to do is pick Shatter Destructive and there is nothing you can do about it. Its a checkers like game with no counterplays, no play arounds, no surprises or versatility.

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devilfire said:

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As for the advantage of a developed Magic heroes it will be better with a mixed system because:

1. MH can use every single spell to their fullest, while the Might heroes will be able to use only a few to some extend (of course they can use Fireballs for their armor reducing effects or Lightnings for their stunning effects, but Mages will use them for their effects AND their damage)

2. MH will be able to get every spell school without crippling themselfs, which is not the case with Might heroes (because they need might skills and perks to function)

3. Magic heroes will have a wider arrange of spells to deal with different situations

4. This system will promote using different schools together because of the spread out spells and perks which mean that if you want to be a true master of the elements or buffer or debuffer or summoner you will have to combine them instead of picking only one and using the full benefits of it.

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devilfire said:

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Mixed Spell system will mean mixed Perk System too, so you will be able to choose what you want to do with your spells. A good example of that can be Master of Storms and Ignite. Its not that Master of Storms is bad, its just not better than Ignite, but if Master of Storms didn`t compete for the same place as Ignite then you could freely pick it up without cutting the other, more benefical path.

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devilfire said:

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All in all some spells function in the same way and are too similar in general and the one will always be better than the other if they have to compete for the same place.

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devilfire said:

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I will give you another example. You picked every Fire damage enhancing item and perk in the game, but you are against Fire resistance and Magic immune creatures. You can always throw some Lightnings but why do you specialized into Fire then ? Now give divine strength to Destructive and you got another option -> go all in with your creatures because now you have the damage to do so. Its your choice.

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devilfire said:

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Another example - you decided to take every bit of magic resistance that you came across. You enter the final battles only to see that your opponent have Light and Summoning and you counter just a few spells of his entire skill set. Now your Magic resistance is wasted. But with a mixed spell system it won`t be, because every school will have damage and debuffs that you can counter, so your Magic resistance will actually force your opponent to play differently because you will be able to counter 50-60 % of his spells.

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devilfire said:

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3. Magic heroes will have a wider arrange of spells to deal with different situations

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devilfire said:

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4. This system will promote using different schools together because of the spread out spells and perks which mean that if you want to be a true master of the elements or buffer or debuffer or summoner you will have to combine them instead of picking only one and using the full benefits of it.

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devilfire said:

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Many new combinations will open. For example if you give Decay to Fire school, couple it with Ignite you will have the possibility to play as a damage over time caster. You can do that now, but I highly doubt anyone would prefer to use Decay over Mass slow or Vampirism etc.

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devilfire said:

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Mixed Spell system will mean mixed Perk System too, so you will be able to choose what you want to do with your spells. A good example of that can be Master of Storms and Ignite. Its not that Master of Storms is bad, its just not better than Ignite, but if Master of Storms didn`t compete for the same place as Ignite then you could freely pick it up without cutting the other, more benefical path.

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dredknight said:

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devilfire said:

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- Endurance and Deflect Missile - they do the same thing in a same way (both of them are defensive mass buffs) but DM is useful only against few units in the game - most of the towns have 1 shooter and 1 caster. Casters are more likely to cast.

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Statistically is correct and not correct. at one side each army has 1-2 shooters but on the other side they hit 100% of the time while melee attackers do not and can be blocked.
Furthermore casters cast only when the magic will deal more damage than the attack. When the PvE stack became bigger they prefer shooting.

true but 5 - 6 melees will truly hit more often then 1 - 2 caster/shooter

devilfire said:

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- Divine Strength and Righteous Might - the first is situational, the second is good all around but essentially they do the same thing in a same way (offensive mass buffs), but more often than not we will see Righteous Might because it works for everyone, not just the high damage gap creatures.

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Math says otherwise. Damage is better that stats because damage is after that amplified by the stats. Though some creatures do not benefit that much from Divine strength in no way it is worse than Righteous might. They are OK.

example angels (and some other creatures too) benefit nothing from divine strength - insteat a lot from righeous might. i c a huge difference here

devilfire said:

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- Arcane Crystal and Blade Barrier - the main purpose is blocking with an object - essentially the same goal.

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but practically not. YOu cannot use blade barrier in some situations because it requires 3-square-empty-column so it can be casted. It is not very comfortable to use. On the other hand you cant use the Crystal to protect your archers as it does not offer much protection (1 square) and in case of being hit it will cripple them quite a lot.

This is actually true and not true... While in some situations blocking 3 tiles is more important then blocking one tile. Depends on situations

devilfire said:

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- This is even more obvious with Destructive spells - Fireball have the perk support while other don`t (and yes, Fireball can deal a lot more damage because of empowered spells that add x1.5, luck that add x2 and ignite that add x2 over three turns, it can turn out that you can deal 6 times the normal damage over three turns, while others can deal up to 3 times the normal damage, not to mention Fireball have a better AoE).

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One sidedly you are correct but when comes to PvP you can ask matod how much was his damage output with fireball a few games ago.
Basically if some player picks Destruction type hero the other will make sure he has the proper defenses to protect from fire. THat is the primary goal of the opponent because it is the most damaging spell. Moreover spells like ice and lighting may penetrate the defense better due to the lack of that many protective artifacts.

There are several lightning protect and enhance lightning artifacts (titan - ring + necklace for water). Even from earth (implosion is gone then - dwarf).

devilfire said:

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The only thing that really counters Fireballs is Fire Resistance, but then again, only 9 hero classes can take Shatter Light out of 22. not to mention it would be useless to take Shatter Light if you are not against a Light town. So most of the time you are going to see Fireballs all over the place while there will be no sight of the other elements (maybe some earth damage with Implosion and Meteor shower, but they don`t have the perk support too)

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If shatters are so useless nobody will use them. Currently Shatters are mainly PvP oriented (partially help with some magical monsters on the map).

devilfire said:

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All in all some spells function in the same way and are too similar in general and the one will always be better than the other if they have to compete for the same place.

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A hero rarely collects all spells from one school. So if there is just one damaging, buffing, cursing etc.. spell your tactic will be mostly based on luck while when you have a bunch of some that has little variation you can always count on something concrete when you pick  a school.

On big maps (5 - 6 months+) a hereo will collect all specific speels. Guilds, Battlezones etc.

devilfire said:

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Now lets for example take Blade Barrier and give it to Light, but keep Arcane Crystal to summoning. You will use both depending on what school you have and it will unlock another option for you to use. Add to that the ice damage spells and perks. Now thats what I call a diversity. Now you will have to make a choice - do I need the slowing effect from the Master of Ice or I can pick another school that have slow in it, while using the Ice spells for the damage only.

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Actually the possibility to not be able to use any of them is bigger as you have just one spell doing that in the school and it may never appear the Magic guild unless - Academy.

devilfire said:

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I will give you another example. You picked every Fire damage enhancing item and perk in the game, but you are against Fire resistance and Magic immune creatures....

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 Nobody does this in a life time. This is a lack of tactics. Refer to matod for the damage penalty he suffered.

devilfire said:

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Another example - you decided to take every bit of magic resistance that you came across. You enter the final battles only to see that your opponent have Light and Summoning and you counter just a few spells of his entire skill set...

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This is why tavern is your best friend.

True but who is willing to spend tenthousands of gold only to c what your opponent has (early game - its to late then when it comes to the last fight and you lack of lvlups etc)

devilfire said:

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Another good thing to mention is that now you pick Shatter Destructive spells and you are almost invulnerable to damage spells, so you are denying everyone who want to play as a damage dealing spell caster, while with a mixed system you will counter one damage type and a few useful spells, while letting your opponent play with a different damage type.

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Hero with one magic school in his inventory is not a real mage. Plus most of the time a mage count on occultism and sorcery to get through shatters.

Well that doesnt change during our ideas of the new spell system.

devilfire said:

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For example you picked Fotress, which are highly resistant to Fire, now pick a Shatter Lightning and take Emerald slippers in your inventory. You are still vulnerable to Ice, so your opponent can still exploit that if he want. Its a chess like game.

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There is no such thing as shatter lighting. Harcodded. even if existed it would be waste of slots as there are only 2 lighting spells in the game.

True - but lightning attacks dont hit so hard... and often uncontrolled (chainlightning)

devilfire said:

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With the current system all you have to do is pick Shatter Destructive and there is nothing you can do about it. Its a checkers like game with no counterplays, no play arounds, no surprises or versatility.

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Counter it with second school, plus you have the benefit of using Destruction in the PvE while the enemy cant use the shatter except vs YOU.

Well your enemy can do that too... And then both go through the "best" strategy. I wouldnt call that a "variation"

devilfire said:

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As for the advantage of a developed Magic heroes it will be better with a mixed system because:

1. MH can use every single spell to their fullest, while the Might heroes will be able to use only a few to some extend (of course they can use Fireballs for their armor reducing effects or Lightnings for their stunning effects, but Mages will use them for their effects AND their damage)

2. MH will be able to get every spell school without crippling themselfs, which is not the case with Might heroes (because they need might skills and perks to function)

3. Magic heroes will have a wider arrange of spells to deal with different situations

4. This system will promote using different schools together because of the spread out spells and perks which mean that if you want to be a true master of the elements or buffer or debuffer or summoner you will have to combine them instead of picking only one and using the full benefits of it.

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All the things above are valid for the current magic system.

devilfire said:

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Mixed Spell system will mean mixed Perk System too, so you will be able to choose what you want to do with your spells. A good example of that can be Master of Storms and Ignite. Its not that Master of Storms is bad, its just not better than Ignite, but if Master of Storms didn`t compete for the same place as Ignite then you could freely pick it up without cutting the other, more benefical path.

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What you mean is that all magic heroes will be jacks of all trade and at the same time Jacks of no trade due to their too different perks.

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dredknight said:

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devilfire said:

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- Endurance and Deflect Missile - they do the same thing in a same way (both of them are defensive mass buffs) but DM is useful only against few units in the game - most of the towns have 1 shooter and 1 caster. Casters are more likely to cast.

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Statistically is correct and not correct. at one side each army has 1-2 shooters but on the other side they hit 100% of the time while melee attackers do not and can be blocked.
Furthermore casters cast only when the magic will deal more damage than the attack. When the PvE stack became bigger they prefer shooting.

- archers hit 100 % of the time, but most of the melees (with a few exceptions) are going to hit maximum at the second round -> for 2 round you are going to get hit by 4 shooter attacks (2 shooter and 2 caster) and by 5 melee (if every single melee is slow and need 2 turns to attack, not to mention that the enemy won`t stay and wait you to go over him)

devilfire said:

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- Divine Strength and Righteous Might - the first is situational, the second is good all around but essentially they do the same thing in a same way (offensive mass buffs), but more often than not we will see Righteous Might because it works for everyone, not just the high damage gap creatures.

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Math says otherwise. Damage is better that stats because damage is after that amplified by the stats. Though some creatures do not benefit that much from Divine strength in no way it is worse than Righteous might. They are OK.

- math says otherwise but essentially you use it for the same reason -> damage increase in the same way -> mass buffs.. why does a single school need both if it have other buff to other purposes ? they overlap their funcionality and compete for the same spot namely - mass buffing damage

devilfire said:

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- Arcane Crystal and Blade Barrier - the main purpose is blocking with an object - essentially the same goal.

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but practically not. YOu cannot use blade barrier in some situations because it requires 3-square-empty-column so it can be casted. It is not very comfortable to use. On the other hand you cant use the Crystal to protect your archers as it does not offer much protection (1 square) and in case of being hit it will cripple them quite a lot.

- arcane crystal`s and blade barrier`s core is the same -> blocking with an object, eventually one will be better than the other but why do you need both in the same school if you can have one of them in a different school and open an entirely new option for it ?

devilfire said:

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- This is even more obvious with Destructive spells - Fireball have the perk support while other don`t (and yes, Fireball can deal a lot more damage because of empowered spells that add x1.5, luck that add x2 and ignite that add x2 over three turns, it can turn out that you can deal 6 times the normal damage over three turns, while others can deal up to 3 times the normal damage, not to mention Fireball have a better AoE).

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One sidedly you are correct but when comes to PvP you can ask matod how much was his damage output with fireball a few games ago.
Basically if some player picks Destruction type hero the other will make sure he has the proper defenses to protect from fire. THat is the primary goal of the opponent because it is the most damaging spell. Moreover spells like ice and lighting may penetrate the defense better due to the lack of that many protective artifacts.

- exactly, his Fireball won`t do as much damage as expected, but if he had mass Divine Strength he could just go all-in and it would be surprise for you because he just played around your Fire Resistance. Thats entirely different approach to the battle rather than just throwing some Lightnings

devilfire said:

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The only thing that really counters Fireballs is Fire Resistance, but then again, only 9 hero classes can take Shatter Light out of 22. not to mention it would be useless to take Shatter Light if you are not against a Light town. So most of the time you are going to see Fireballs all over the place while there will be no sight of the other elements (maybe some earth damage with Implosion and Meteor shower, but they don`t have the perk support too)

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If shatters are so useless nobody will use them. Currently Shatters are mainly PvP oriented (partially help with some magical monsters on the map).

- shatters are not useless, quite the opposite. They counter too much of the enemy gameplay style. I want to be a buffer, but you got Shatter Light, so what can I do ? How can I play around that ? I don`t have a way and all of my buffs are weak (especially if I am a Might hero). With mixed spell system I would still play as a buffer, but with different school that have weaker buffs, but still buffs. So I will keep my playstyle while you keep yours.

devilfire said:

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All in all some spells function in the same way and are too similar in general and the one will always be better than the other if they have to compete for the same place.

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A hero rarely collects all spells from one school. So if there is just one damaging, buffing, cursing etc.. spell your tactic will be mostly based on luck while when you have a bunch of some that has little variation you can always count on something concrete when you pick  a school.

- there will be more than one damaging, buffing and debuffing spell.. thats the point

devilfire said:

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Now lets for example take Blade Barrier and give it to Light, but keep Arcane Crystal to summoning. You will use both depending on what school you have and it will unlock another option for you to use. Add to that the ice damage spells and perks. Now thats what I call a diversity. Now you will have to make a choice - do I need the slowing effect from the Master of Ice or I can pick another school that have slow in it, while using the Ice spells for the damage only.

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Actually the possibility to not be able to use any of them is bigger as you have just one spell doing that in the school and it may never appear the Magic guild unless - Academy.

- the possibility is absolutely the same because for that example Light will have to give away some spells, so it will still have 10 in general

devilfire said:

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I will give you another example. You picked every Fire damage enhancing item and perk in the game, but you are against Fire resistance and Magic immune creatures....

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 Nobody does this in a life time. This is a lack of tactics. Refer to matod for the damage penalty he suffered.

- nobody is focusing that much on Fire because its predictable, its predictable because Destructive is all about damage and this is its most damaging move, but if it had some buffs or debuff the Fireball would be optional, not mandatory for the spell school to work properly

devilfire said:

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Another example - you decided to take every bit of magic resistance that you came across. You enter the final battles only to see that your opponent have Light and Summoning and you counter just a few spells of his entire skill set...

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This is why tavern is your best friend.

- tavern is my best friend in PvP 1on1, but in MMH 5.5 there is a lot more things to do, so 2 heroes can be easily leveled and it would be nice if your magic resistance had some use against both of them, not to mention if he had 3 + heroes (which is happening especially with Government system)

devilfire said:

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Another good thing to mention is that now you pick Shatter Destructive spells and you are almost invulnerable to damage spells, so you are denying everyone who want to play as a damage dealing spell caster, while with a mixed system you will counter one damage type and a few useful spells, while letting your opponent play with a different damage type.

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Hero with one magic school in his inventory is not a real mage. Plus most of the time a mage count on occultism and sorcery to get through shatters.

- thats exactly what I`m talking about.. you pick different spell schools but its not fair that the will of the shatter hero is over the will of the mage hero. If I want to play with a damaging abilities I will have to get that chance (example -> you have shatter Fire, because its the most damaging, but I couple that with Water school, so I can use my Ice spells that are not that damaging, but still more damaging than the shattered ones) -> this way both played get what they want

devilfire said:

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For example you picked Fotress, which are highly resistant to Fire, now pick a Shatter Lightning and take Emerald slippers in your inventory. You are still vulnerable to Ice, so your opponent can still exploit that if he want. Its a chess like game.

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There is no such thing as shatter lighting. Harcodded. even if existed it would be waste of slots as there are only 2 lighting spells in the game.

- by "shatter lightning" I mean the school that is renamed Lightning -> for example if we rename Light to Lightning, keep some buffs, give it Lightning damage it will be essentially Shatter Light > Shatter Lightning (not just the damage type, the entire school)

devilfire said:

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With the current system all you have to do is pick Shatter Destructive and there is nothing you can do about it. Its a checkers like game with no counterplays, no play arounds, no surprises or versatility.

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Counter it with second school, plus you have the benefit of using Destruction in the PvE while the enemy cant use the shatter except vs YOU.

- I can`t counter it with a second school because no other school provide even close to the damaging spells of Destructive .. so you are denying the possibility of every other player that eventually want to dish out some damage

devilfire said:

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As for the advantage of a developed Magic heroes it will be better with a mixed system because:

1. MH can use every single spell to their fullest, while the Might heroes will be able to use only a few to some extend (of course they can use Fireballs for their armor reducing effects or Lightnings for their stunning effects, but Mages will use them for their effects AND their damage)

2. MH will be able to get every spell school without crippling themselfs, which is not the case with Might heroes (because they need might skills and perks to function)

3. Magic heroes will have a wider arrange of spells to deal with different situations

4. This system will promote using different schools together because of the spread out spells and perks which mean that if you want to be a true master of the elements or buffer or debuffer or summoner you will have to combine them instead of picking only one and using the full benefits of it.

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All the things above are valid for the current magic system.

- not really the same because the school are highly specialized and you will never see a might hero using his Fireball for the reduced defense simply because he don`t have access to Destructive (because its specialized for high sp..)

devilfire said:

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Mixed Spell system will mean mixed Perk System too, so you will be able to choose what you want to do with your spells. A good example of that can be Master of Storms and Ignite. Its not that Master of Storms is bad, its just not better than Ignite, but if Master of Storms didn`t compete for the same place as Ignite then you could freely pick it up without cutting the other, more benefical path.

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What you mean is that all magic heroes will be jacks of all trade and at the same time Jacks of no trade due to their too different perks.

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devilfire said:

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All in all there is no diversity in playstyle with the same Spell School at the moment. There is diversity in numbers - Fireball is doing 500 damage, while Circle of winter is doing 450, diversity.. I`m gonna give my army 10 defense or 10 attack .. diversity

The same playstyle, just the numbers are different, it won`t really surprise you if the enemy buff his Attack or Defense, because yuo can do nothing about it, but it will surprise you if he go all in melee, or use some huge nuke, or block off your path etc.

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dredknight said:

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Statistically is correct and not correct. at one side each army has 1-2 shooters but on the other side they hit 100% of the time while melee attackers do not and can be blocked.
Furthermore casters cast only when the magic will deal more damage than the attack. When the PvE stack became bigger they prefer shooting.

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dredknight said:

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@Lotihoti,

I am not willing th continue this challenge as I dont see any facts it is just your opinion that you use as primary factor. Magno said before that anyone can use his work and do as he wishes. If you feel that you dont like it make another iteration of the mod with the stuff you like. THe game is good as it is. Plus I have doubts you have any real PvP experience by reading your post.

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