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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted January 16, 2016 04:44 PM |
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lotihoti said:
dredknight said:
@Lotihoti,
I am not willing th continue this challenge as I dont see any facts it is just your opinion that you use as primary factor. Magno said before that anyone can use his work and do as he wishes. If you feel that you dont like it make another iteration of the mod with the stuff you like. THe game is good as it is. Plus I have doubts you have any real PvP experience by reading your post.
well... Facts? My opinion? Your facts is your opinion - whats the difference? I play dayly with a friend... Different maps, different factions.
Just dont spread rumours when you know nothing about a person...
@Lotihoti, please forgive me, I meant @devilfire.
@Devilfire, I dont think your proposals are incorrect. Please dont be offended by any means. Though they can easily be abused or make other parts of the game not desireable.
the Heroes 5.5 mechanic is very complicated and if you touch one thing you implement disbalance into 3 other. I dont mind your opinion but at least do a test run on your options and let us know what are the results.
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 16, 2016 04:57 PM |
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@dredknight
I`m not offended, I`m glad that we made a discussion.
I know that balance is a delicate thing, thats why I post my ideas here, because I want to discuss the possibilities with the 5.5 balance, so that people can share their opinion, advices and thoughts. Many of the people here have more experience than me, so I will appreciate every feedback.
I don`t know why it was received so negatively (except for lotihoti), I am not suggesting "change that now!", I`m giving my point of view and I will be glad if more people join me and try to work this out, so it can eventually become an alternative to the current system.
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lotihoti
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2016 05:06 PM |
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@dredknight:
Pls show me where i dont talk about facts.
I generally talk for pvp battles because the ai is dump as hell (battle maps) and then all my points are valid. I just want to add some "variety"... was never satisfied with the spell system in this game...
Most of the time tactics in pve are:
- vampirism fighters
- dark magic (frenzy, blind, puppet) fighters
- blocking fighters (summoning) combined with destructiv + shooters.
But all these tactics arent going to work against a good pvp guy...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 16, 2016 05:22 PM |
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@dredknight: don't bother with the duel mode, i never did anything with it, so it must be broken. Also H5 duel mode is terrible to begin with. It should be rebuild on map level to be more like the much better H6 system.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted January 16, 2016 06:08 PM |
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Lotihoti, here an answer to your post  .
Regarding magic. It is fine that some magics duplicate. At least you are certain you will get one of it. I know that on big maps you will have all of them. What is important is the starting game will be very rocky for the mage person. How are you going to creep if you are not certain how you will do it. Lets say you pick a school with only 1 obstacle or one damagin spell. What if that spell does not come? how are you going to creep? what if you are a Warlock and you get devine strength instead of fireball?
REgarding Tarvern - You dont need to spend a dime to know what happens on the other side.
If there are shatters like lighting/fire etc.. I in the game. I will make sure I wont pick them any day. Why should I pick a skill that is useless? Basically shatters are useless in the PvE game they are solely made to counter opponent in PvP. You dont get attack points for them, your army does not creep faster, actually you decrease your hero performance so you can just counter enemy one. I dont see any issue with that. This is how the game should work.
What you say is like in Chess you give me check with queen and I defend with a rook but you still can check-mate me with other move nevertheless of my defense. Basically if my defense moves never succeed to turn the game and this is due to game mechanics and not my skill then there is no point in defense. basically the first who make offensive meaneuver wins the game.
So this is what shatters are for- you cripple your self to cripple your enemy - eye for an eye.
I really want to see an alternative to the magic system. Not that it is worse or better but I just want to see how it will impact the game.
But without a working version to test this we can just talk it over and over.
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 16, 2016 06:36 PM |
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devilfire said:
- arcane crystal`s and blade barrier`s core is the same -> blocking with an object, eventually one will be better than the other but why do you need both in the same school if you can have one of them in a different school and open an entirely new option for it ?
Arcane crystal has been extremely useful to me when fighting banks, for blocking shooters and revealing stalkers. All this discussion about "yeah, but this spell is better when..." just goes to show that each (well, almost  ) spell is more useful in some situations than others, which is near ideal.
Mass Decay may not be good in the endgame of large maps, but it can be pretty great early on or in castle fights where the enemy at first just tries to stay clumped together and shoot you without moving anything. It's a lifesaver with Agrael vs. Gilraen in C2M3 on Heroic (Although I played that on 1.0 so probably not still relevant.) But what IS relevant is that, while MMH5.5 is multiplayer-oriented, it doesn't have to be multiplayer-exclusive. There's a HUGE potential for fantastic custom maps and campaigns, especially once an RC is finalized so we won't have to worry about future updates invalidating parts of our maps. (if that ever happens or if it's even something I should worry about.)
devilfire said:
- exactly, his Fireball won`t do as much damage as expected, but if he had mass Divine Strength he could just go all-in and it would be surprise for you because he just played around your Fire Resistance. Thats entirely different approach to the battle rather than just throwing some Lightnings
A hero with destructive could get mass Divine Strength by also taking Light because he's a magic hero. This was my original point about how specialized schools encourage surprise and diversity by taking more schools, instead of being able to do everything with just one.
devilfire said:
There is no "out of the box" option about the current system. They will have the exact same playstyle that cannot be changed no matter what.
Light uses Teleport THEN Mass Haste, teleport is devastating.
I think, in the replay, the hero is actually Dark Magic and got the light spells from Teleport Assault and Power of Speed, which slightly undermines my point, but not too much. Diversity and surprise. When you see an assassin in the Tavern, you might think Dark Magic, maybe Destructive, but certainly not Light.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted January 16, 2016 06:52 PM |
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 16, 2016 07:02 PM |
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@dredknight
I am not a big fan of Heroes 3 but it got covered with that every school got Magic arrow, also the mages are already starting with a skill that would help them creep. Also some perks are giving the spells (Master of Fire is giving Fireball etc).
Shatter are really one sided. They are counterplay to some playstyle, but there is nothing you can do about it.
Every other thing in the game can counter the counter to some extend. That sound messy, but I will explain with an example:
I pick Destructive -> you pick Magic resistance to counter me -> I pick Occultism to counter your magic resistance -> you pick magic armor to counter my successful rolls of damage -> I pick more damage to compensate for the loss of nuking power due to magic armor
That way it sounds like a chess because we both have a lot of moves. Now imagine the Shatters in the same situation.
I pick Destructive -> you pick Shatter Destructive -> eventually I pick more damage, but it won`t be as effective no matter what I do
Thats it.. like a checkers, if there was a Shatter Shatter Destructive then it could have a counter play to your counter play, but there is not, sooo my playstyle will be completely denied. There is nothing I can do to keep my nuking playstyle viable.
Now that if there was Shatter Fire, Ice etc. Then I could pick Ice spell school and still do nuking even tho it won`t be as powerful as Fire could. Its worth noting that those shatter will also shatter the buffs and debuffs that the school provide.
This can also lead to shatters that provide a little bit of offense or defense or some kind of utility to compensate for the hard countering loss. They already have some, so its not completely wasted skill slot.
While it has some good balance between them due to the "an eye for an eye" type I still think it can be improved in some way to make the gameplay more versatile and diverging depending on the situation.
Also, thank you for the opinion, you are welcome to keep giving it all the time because its always useful to receive insights on why are the things working the way they work. Aaand talking is useful, it makes you think, which is what we need to find a way to improve.
I will stop writing in this thread about the mixed spells system, good thing lotihoti made a separate one, so if someone have some ideas, thought, opinions, advices or anything else don`t hesitate to share it there.
TipToe_McGuffy and Strigvir I will share my opinion in the "Magic System Variants", we can continue the discussion there if you want.
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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 06:08 AM |
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devilfire
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 09:46 AM |
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New day - new idea ..
Warmachines - as it is now the Catapult perks are never picked and if you want to pick the tent you will have to pick a ballista too. I propose a small rearrange and a little add-on to the current skill tree
Ballista -> Triple Ballista
Engineering -> Catapult -> Triple Catapult
First Aid -> Plague Tent
With the rearrange we will have the same choices that we had with the vanilla (Triple Ballista + First Aid) AND also the choices that we have now (Engineering + Triple Ballista).
To spice up the deal on the Catapult the Warmachines perk can add Archers depending on the Catapult perk level, so if we have Catapult then we get some Archers, if we have Triple Catapult we get a lot more Archers. That way we can have some diversity in our choices - either build for mid to late game but lose some of the early game benefits or build entirely for early game but lose the late game benefits.
Ammo Cart is bundled with the Catapult perk already, so it makes sense because it does something only for the shooters, for everyone else its absolutely useless. Also gameplaywise Catapults are used in sieges, Archers and Flyers are best in sieges, so it will complement each other. Even the icons fit.
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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 04:30 PM |
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I like the idea of engineering being First perk in the Middle, because that way one can have Engineering with any of the three war-machine schools: adv. tent, adv. catapult or adv. ballista.
1. Engineering should be benefiting perk for all of them.
2. These combinations are possible with such change:
Engineering + Ballista + Catapult;
Engineering + Ballista + Tent;
Engineering + Tent + Catapult;
or
Engineering + Ballista + Adv. Ballista;
Engineering + Catapult + Adv. Catapult;
Engineering + Tent + Adv. Tent.
There is much more options for War Machines as skill this way.
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Athis
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 08:15 PM |
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Edited by Athis at 20:16, 17 Jan 2016.
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I was reading the install instructions on the Facebook page and it says to patch TotE to 3.01
My game is patched to 3.1
That is the version number on the main menu screen
and in the exe details
Is there a difference?
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted January 17, 2016 08:25 PM |
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Athis said:
I was reading the install instructions on the Facebook page and it says to patch TotE to 3.01
My game is patched to 3.1
That is the version number on the main menu screen
and in the exe details
Is there a difference?
No, 3.1 and 3.01 is the same thing. You are good .
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Athis
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 08:31 PM |
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Thanks Dredknight
I want to play the vanilla campaigns...
would you advise HOMM5.5 or vanilla TotE (I have the files from the French site)
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strigvir
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 08:45 PM |
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Literally doesn't matter, vanilla campaign in both will be broken.
Although MMH 5.5 has less spaghetti requirements for ultimate skills, so you probably will get them in the campaign without cheating in basic skills.
Speaking of vanilla campaign, shouldn't Shadya be an Assassin class? It was kinda a letdown to play with two Warlocks in the campaign, while Dungeon has 3 classes. And she was presented on mission as a super epic assassin anyway, so the class is even more fitting for her.
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Athis
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 09:06 PM |
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strigvir said:
Literally doesn't matter, vanilla campaign in both will be broken.
Although MMH 5.5 has less spaghetti requirements for ultimate skills, so you probably will get them in the campaign without cheating in basic skills.
Speaking of vanilla campaign, shouldn't Shadya be an Assassin class? It was kinda a letdown to play with two Warlocks in the campaign, while Dungeon has 3 classes. And she was presented on mission as a super epic assassin anyway, so the class is even more fitting for her.
I never played the campaigns yet so I cannot comment
Thanks
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 17, 2016 09:55 PM |
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Quote:
Literally doesn't matter, vanilla campaign in both will be broken.
The campaigns are NOT broken in MMH5.5, you don't need the files from the french site, the script fixed campaigns are included in the installer!
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Athis
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 17, 2016 10:16 PM |
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Thank you magnomagus
on that basis I will go ahead and use your mod for my playthrough
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 17, 2016 11:40 PM |
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In next version brimstone rain will double up the attack bonus from ammo cart for everyone, also the tent will heal more HP, which requires me to revert it back to 3 shots to balance it.
Quote:
Engineering + Catapult + Adv. Catapult;
Engineering + Tent + Adv. Tent.
That being said these combos are pointless.
Quote:
There is much more options for War Machines as skill this way.
..and no there are always exactly the same amount of combo's possible.
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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 18, 2016 12:48 AM |
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magnomagus said:
In next version brimstone rain will double up the attack bonus from ammo cart for everyone, also the tent will heal more HP, which requires me to revert it back to 3 shots to balance it.
Quote:
There is much more options for War Machines as skill this way.
..and no there are always exactly the same amount of combo's possible.
Yes. Technically speaking no matter how one reorders perks, there are always the same amount of combinations. Which I believe is pointless to discuss, but also does not says anything about a Skill.
Quote:
Engineering + Catapult + Adv. Catapult;
Engineering + Tent + Adv. Tent.
That being said these combos are pointless.
_____________
They are pointless cause that is how War Machine skill is made now (even with the changes), and until perks are "reordered" they will always stay that way. Which is exactly the point.
To follow my logic, and see if it gets us anywhere, lets divide War Machine to 3 parts, Schools: ballista, catapult and tent. All those three have basic perk and advanced perk, each.
If Ammo Cart benefit (restores ammo cart + double it's hp) is in Engineering. (only there); and If:
Engineering is first in Middle, provided if it also gives equally beneficial things to all 3 schools: catapult, ballista and tent (or gives none to them = also equally); Then:
Once one has Engineering, all three branches would be (equally) allowed to be developed to Advanced perk. (With beneficial things coming from them, put at players choice). Which also gives @magno the option to "reinvent", change, balance, them.
At present it is not even possible to have Engineering (at present it gives +2 initiative to all war machines) with Brimstone Rain, or Engineering with Plague Tent.
This is how I meant that such change would give more options to War Machines. It would give 3 distinctive options to develop the skill, while keeping Engineering (the Ammo Cart benefit + eventual benefit for all 3 schools).
The eventual benefit can be let's say 10% (or other %) to Initiative of tent, catapult and ballista. Then again this benefit can be anything else: whatever is appropriate (doable) and equally beneficial to all 3.
EDIT: On second thought I can't find any logic behind present situation, Engineering being second perk in Ballista branch. It makes the currently strongest branch even stronger, preferable to take; While also making the other two, catapult and tent, even weaker and therefore less desirable.
It gives +2 initiative to all war machines... should be first in middle. Maybe that 2 initiative can be the extra benefit for someone who decides to take Brimstone Rain or Plague Tent. Maybe even without the need to change them as perks.
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