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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 27, 2016 01:19 PM |
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Gidoza said:
I think that I've amply described how a tradeoff doesn't even exist: Meteor Shower has no place at its current damage level.
That would be true if not for the atb dynamic balance. But managing to hit 1-2 more targets in the beginning may turn out more useful than one extra fireball later. Of course this is a vague scenario that varies from time to time.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 27, 2016 01:20 PM |
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2016 04:21 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Gidoza said:
Quote:
A pit lord is a demon it throws rocks and fire not singularities.
Er...what? Sorry, not buying it. Demons are demons, they can live on another dimensional plane. Nothing limits them to rocks and fire...
Sheogh is the Demon prison world located below the surface of the world of Ashan, around the eternal prison of Urgash, the Dragon of Chaos, guarded by the power of darkness, fire, and earth. Physically speaking, it is the core of the planet the continent of Ashan is located on, however, the current population lacks understanding it as a whole, and rather regards Sheogh as some different world.
So... yeah. Demons come from the literal core of the planet and not from "another dimensional plane", at least in Ashan.
If you want to stick strictly to lore, then sure - but that's no way to balance a game. Closer to reality, Sylvan has always felt Native American-esque to me, Academy has a Muslim feel, Haven/Inferno have a Christianesque feel, all of which have been "adapted" to the game because humans can't help but take from reality to create a fictional world. My point is: Ashan lore is nice, but I can't take it seriously, and also shouldn't, especially for game. I'm not going to bother learning a whole pile of lore that exists in a bubble of reality that is pertinent to nothing only to have that as an argument for why Pit Lords should have a spell that is never used.
On that note, for Elvin: Yeah, it is a vague scenario. MS can certainly be the better choice sometimes, but good game balanced isn't based on vague scenarios.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2016 04:24 PM |
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magnomagus said:
I think I just found an unused value in the defaultstats.xdb that could possibly revolutionize the gameplay with gating. It is called GatedStartATB and is set to zero, but if you set it to 1 or 0.75 the gated creatures get to act immediately or very fast after they are summoned. You could say it is the inverted effect of Urgash call, because you have to wait until they appear but they act immediately when they do.
Now my idea is if you significantly reduce the amount of gated creatures let say: 15/20/25% + 10% for gating mastery and set this value to 0.75 the situation remains balanced but the gameplay allows much better tactical planning and your army feels much more like an aggressive/swarming force.
This can be further balanced by making the default wait time 0.75 of a turn for the caller and reduce it to 0.5 instead of 0.25 with quick gating.
Currently gating is so slow (2 full turns waiting time), against neutrals the battle is often already over and it makes inferno actually feel very sluggish. Basically trying to sit out until the free creatures can save you losses.
The GateStartATB is also much better balanced than Urgash Call, because urgash call works more like a shooter blocker and then lets the summons stupidly wait. Urgash call also doesn't give the enemy any chance to anticipate were the summons are appearing, while GatedStartATB at 0.75, would give the enemy exactly a little more than a turn to anticipate were the summons appear. So the full proposal would include removing urgash call from the game and replace it with the unused swarming gate perk.
I actually very much like where this is going. BUT I have a very big issue with it, anyways.
Since the game is mostly relating to the AI - and especially since all Neutral battles are with the AI - I think going in this direction is a bad idea. As it stands, the AI doesn't attack Gated units unless they are completely blocking the path, meaning that you can make cute little mazes and completely waste the AI's time to get around your gated units. They won't even hit them if they could kill them all and it was at the end of the movement path they were taking, anyways. The result is that while Gating on a balancing level *should* be fairly good right now, in reality, Gating makes a total mess of the AI, because it has no idea how to handle it. Any buff to Gating's acting speed would ruin this situation even more.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 27, 2016 05:56 PM |
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I understand your concern but my first tests didn't reveal anything getting worse, you can mostly create these 'cute little mazes' with 1 imp stacks already anyway.
There are actually various things working better for the AI:
-Quick-Combat calculations with hero with gating seemed to come out better.
-Urgash call is far worse for AI and will be removed.
-The turn of the caller will be delayed more give better opportunity for AI shooters to hurt them. (they cannot quickly hit defend after gating)
-The gated stacks are smaller.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted May 27, 2016 08:01 PM |
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Thank you Magnomagus and your fellow modders for another great release and countless hours of enjoyment. Great fixes and balance changes for RC7!
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2016 09:12 PM |
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Gidoza said:
If you want to stick strictly to lore, then sure - but that's no way to balance a game. Closer to reality, Sylvan has always felt Native American-esque to me, Academy has a Muslim feel, Haven/Inferno have a Christianesque feel, all of which have been "adapted" to the game because humans can't help but take from reality to create a fictional world. My point is: Ashan lore is nice, but I can't take it seriously, and also shouldn't, especially for game. I'm not going to bother learning a whole pile of lore that exists in a bubble of reality that is pertinent to nothing only to have that as an argument for why Pit Lords should have a spell that is never used.
I do not follow what you are saying at all. It more or less sounds like you're throwing a hissy-fit because the established setting doesn't mesh with what you want the setting to be like. Also, if what I'm interpreting is correct and you're saying "I don't like Ashan's lore about Pit Lords, so follow other lore so they can use Implosion", in what universe can demons create gravitic singularities? You said yourself that you view Inferno as "Christianesque" - speaking as a Christian, I can't think of any demons that use implosion powers, let alone the specific existence of "Pit Lords"...
Also, there's the general point that the mod is not being specifically tailored to your world view.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 28, 2016 12:51 AM |
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I have quite some thinking about the new gating concept today.
And I can say that it is beyond marvelous because by introducing it, it will fix some concerns about inferno in general. Here is a list. I will just list everything we know so far plus the one I came up with so you can look easier at the bigger picture.
1. Gating is too slow. @Magno already pointed that. The faction is more like a worm than a fast lighting. Constant urgash call fixes that.
2. Gating is too powerful, whatever you say gating was still quite powerful. You may take a hit or two while doing it but once you take a handle of the full stacks enemy has little choice to counter.
Now when the summon margin % will be lower this is out of question.
3. Tier 2 - grass hopper critical hitter. one of the OP units in the faction. Not because it is too strong but because of the tactical advantage it gives.
One just uses nightmares and cerberus to cover for a few rounds, after that 2 stacks of thousands of horned deamons just clear out the opponent.
Now when all summoned stacks will be significantly lower in quantity this is fixed.
...And it also fixes the issue with the fireball-upgrade being useless (not that it is not strong but the poor initiative, average speed, casted-ability that require 1 turn to position the unit before used). Now you can summon the stack and directly fireball all units around.
Very very nice!!!! no words to explain this!!!
4. constant urgash call also fixes gating issue with first devil upgrade and pit lords. This also further equalize both devil upgrades  !!!!
5. Fixes issue with late game grind when hero does not have urgash call.
6. fixes issue with archer grind where your imps always take the first hit.
7. Adding "Swarming gate" is now possible where it does not even require dependencies because it will be useless if hero gets it due to the lack of Luck! (this should be tested though).
Just pure pure awesomeness. Thank you @Magno for this good finding!!!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 28, 2016 12:40 PM |
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I think swarm gating makes better sense in luck. Other than being lucky with artifacts, the ability will not be useful unless you get luck.
Besides, it's not that crazy if it gets 15% chance per luck with 50% bonus. With expert luck it will have a 45% chance for +50% gated creatures which is roughly +22.5% added units on average.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 28, 2016 12:59 PM |
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Actually luck skill is not mandatory because one can equip luck artifacts to get a few points. There are quite some luck artifacts in the game as well so I dont think it is a problem.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 28, 2016 03:13 PM |
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UPDATE
RC7a Released!!!
Download
Because of a critical issue in RC7 with the artifact tables from adventure objects I had to do a quick rerelease of RC7, but as result of all the input and discussions the last few days there is a whole lot of extra goodies included.
-Fixed CRITICAL ISSUE ultimate reward not given for obelisk quests.
-Fixed CRITICAL ISSUE some artifacts not given to player by battle sites.
Fast-Paced Gating
Inferno Gating is changed significantly in this version. The gameplay is much more fun, much faster paced, better balanced and allows more tactical planning.
-Reinforcements from gating act almost immediately after they arrive! (their ATB is set to 0.75)
-Time between the call and the first act is 1.25 turns instead of 2 turns!
-To balance this urgash call is removed from game and replaced with swarming gate.
-Amounts are reduced to 15%/20%/25% and 5% for Gate master.
-Delay for caller is 75% of a turn, 50% with Swift gating.
-Gatekeeper gives 0.33% per level.
-banish changed back to 40*level dmg (since it is primarily an inferno counter it needs to be adjusted to the gate %)
-Combat skill retaliation dmg is improved to 10%/17.5%/25% (should be better than offense since first strike is better than retaliate)
-Fixed desc of Combat skill mastery levels containing removed features.
-Cold Death also gives +2 SP at level 20.
-Secrets of Destruction gives +2 K instead of +2 SP at level 20. (to make it more different from cold death)
-clarified pariah desc.
-Added Quest to Amulet of Necromancy: can be offered for stack of Death Knights.
-Added Quest to Ring of Unrepentant: can be offered for stack of mummies.
-Ring of Elementals also boosts summoning in towns by 20%
-Vestment of enlightenment changed formula to (exp=amount of days past*10). (was not supposed to benefit main hero very much)
-Corrected descriptions of crown of leadership, pendant of mastery and teleport other.
-Pit Lords cast meteor shower at expert level.
-Horned demons +1 ini, -2D,-1A.
-Horned demons Explosion dmg multiplier increased from 11 to 40.
-Vermins have +1D,+1HP,-1 ini (offer better tactical variation between imp upgrades)
-Familiars speed reduced to 6 (7 was overpowered) +1A -1D.
-Demons +1 ini (adjusted to upgrades)
-Imps +1Hp,-1 ini (adjusted to upgrades)
-Nightmares +1 min dmg.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 28, 2016 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
I think swarm gating makes better sense in luck. Other than being lucky with artifacts, the ability will not be useful unless you get luck.
Besides, it's not that crazy if it gets 15% chance per luck with 50% bonus. With expert luck it will have a 45% chance for +50% gated creatures which is roughly +22.5% added units on average.
You could say that for retribution in offense as well, but it gives 10% chance independant of luck, even if luck is negative. also it is 5% per luck not 15%. Avg bonus with 4 luck = 7.5%.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 28, 2016 03:45 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 28, 2016 03:58 PM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 28, 2016 03:59 PM |
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Explosion will be much more useful with the new gating  Liking the new mechanics.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 28, 2016 04:14 PM |
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Some minor tautolougy in Hellfire.
Currently the skill says:
Quote:
Creatures under Demon Lord's control are granted a 30% chance to deal additional fire damage on attack. Hellfire drains the Demon Lord's mana. Hellfire deals 15*(Power+1) of Fire damage. It drains 4 Mana from the Demon Lord spell points each time it triggers.
It should say:
Quote:
Creatures under hero's control are granted a 30% chance to deal additional fire damage on attack. Hellfire deals 15*(Power+1) of Fire damage. It drains 4 Mana from the hero spell points each time it triggers.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2016 04:51 PM |
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I haven't tried the new changes but they all sound very good!
The first post needs an update though...
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 28, 2016 05:25 PM |
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@Magno, I see you have changed most of the perks to relate "hero" instead of certain class but this is done halfway for most of the Avenger perks.
I will fix this for the skillwheel (as well as other things I find ) and can provide you the texts if you want.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 28, 2016 05:57 PM |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 28, 2016 06:22 PM |
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magnomagus said:
I only see it with imbue arrow, not exactly 'most of' ?
I am sorry my bad. It seems some of the skillwheel text also included "Ranger" in the perks which falsely led me to this opinion.
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