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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 02:51 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 18:16, 03 Oct 2017.
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thGryphn said:
3) Now when your Tier 7 creatures are attacking a Tier 1, we have (A-D) = 30. Remember that A minus D cap is 60. So, if your hero has 30 Attack, you're done. Any spell that increase A (Righteousness? F it Bloodlust!) is moot. Also, any spell that decrease enemy D (Vulnerability) is also moot.
This also means, if your hero attack is 30, artifacts that boost A have diminishing value.
Summary is that the current situation values D more than A, especially in a long game.
Remedy: make the caps on (A-D) and (D-A) equal.
It's interesting game design, it’s a competition not only to lower the attack in order to receive less damage, but also to lower the attack in order to switch from A>D category to D>A for same or very similar tiers, maximum of 1 tier difference I suppose.
For instance, if a mage hero invests in defense skill and have either light magic (boosting attack of its own creatures) and dark magic (decreasing attack of opponent’s creatures), creatures of similar tier would have a chance to receive less damage not only because of lesser attack of the opponent, but also because damage formula is not A>D, but D>A.
Especially if hero has both dark and light magic mass effects versions of suffering and righteous might. So for mage with 30sp and expert in dark and light magic, the effects are 12.5 both for lowering opponent’s attack (mass suffering) and for boosting its own attack (mass righteous might), so cumulative difference is 25 which I suppose should be enough to stand up against might hero of same level and negate his attack advantage for similar tiers (to switch from A>D category to D>A to receive less damage).
I suppose it’s a game element that allowed mages to survive clash with might heroes, especially if mages had both light and dark magic and defense skills.
However:
1.only necromancer and heretic form mage class cannot have combinations of light and dark magic
2.only wizards from balanced heroes can have dark + light magic combo
3.none from might class
Therefore:
I suppose it’s not about high tier-low tier creatures but about same tier or 1 tier difference creatures.
So, question(s):
1. how balanced was previous edition where every hero could have light and dark mass effects, in other words, how much does with making (A-D) and (D-A) more equal lowers the chances of relatively weaker heroes standing against relatively stronger heroes, compared with situation before, especially if balanced heroes and mages are considered.
EDIT:
Correction is needed with above text.
Raising offense for the defending creature does not make any difference in amount of damage it will receive from the offensive (damage giving) creature.
It’s not mass righteousness that switches the formula for defending creature but mass endurance. (Of course)
The difference is this:
Attacker is Mauler, has 38A, 21D, damage 5-7, cumulative Mauler stock damage when his attack is greater than defenders defence (Rakshasa Kshatra, 31A, 37D) defense is 1844-2583 (14-19 kills).
After pumping up defender’s defense with mass endurance (Rakshasa Kshatra 31A, 52D) Mauler’s damage is reduced to 1221 – 1709 (9-13 kills), so difference is significant, 34% less because now defender has bigger defense than attacker has its attack, so, different formula is triggered.
Combat is between Gorshak and Jhora in Duel Mode, interval results are replicable, perhaps not exactly the same.
So, even after fixing this little type, above question remains the same.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 05:28 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 19:13, 03 Oct 2017.
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Skeggy said:
It's interesting game design, it’s a competition not only to lower the attack in order to receive less damage, but also to lower the attack in order to switch from A>D category to D>A for same or very similar tiers, maximum of 1 tier difference I suppose.
For instance, if a mage hero invests in defense skill and have either light magic (boosting attack of its own creatures) and dark magic (decreasing attack of opponent’s creatures), creatures of similar tier would have a chance to receive less damage not only because of lesser attack of the opponent, but also because damage formula is not A>D, but D>A.
Deeper and detailed math analysis shows that effective damage is dealt when A > D or A << D. Effective defense when D > A or D << A. (<< means lower very much)
But this is not important, because of small numbers. You will not be able to get benefits more than 10-20% effective bonus in TotE, and when you do stats lower (5% to 3.33% or to 2.5%) this effective bonus is lower.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 06:22 PM |
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Nargott said:
Deeper and detailed math analysis shows that effective damage is dealt when A > D or A << D. Effective defense when D > A or D << A. (<< means lower very much)
You have to elaborate on this because it doesn't make any sense...
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 06:31 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:38, 03 Oct 2017.
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thGryphn said:
You have to elaborate on this because it doesn't make any sense...
Ok. When the difference is +0 and you have +1 to attack, you get +5% boost damage (for example in TotE).
When the difference is +20 and you have +1 to attack, you get 205/200 = +2,5% boost damge (relative to situation without that bonus).
So it is clearly seen that having very much difference is lower your bonus.
This is the simplest explanation, but not detailed. Detailed explanation with many concrete numbers and statistics is much more difficult, and there is no sense to bring it because this forum have mostly players, not mathematicians.
So it's easier to believe in a word or not to believe.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 06:35 PM |
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Nargott said:
thGryphn said:
You have to elaborate on this because it doesn't make any sense...
Ok. When the difference is +0 and you have +1 to attack, you get +5% boost damage (for example in TotE).
When the difference is +20 and you have +1 to attack, you get 205/200 = +2,5% boost damge (relative to situation without that bonus).
So it is clearly seen that having very much difference is lower you bonus.
The difference is this:
Attacker is Mauler, has 38A, 21D, damage 5-7, cumulative Mauler stock damage when his attack is greater than defenders defense (Rakshasa Kshatra, 31A, 37D) defense is 1844-2583 (14-19 kills).
After pumping up defender’s defense with mass endurance (Rakshasa Kshatra 31A, 52D) Mauler’s damage is reduced to 1221 – 1709 (9-13 kills), so difference is significant, 34% less because now defender has bigger defense than attacker has its attack, so, different formula is triggered.
Combat is between Gorshak and Jhora in Duel Mode, interval results are replicable, perhaps not exactly the same.
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Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 06:40 PM |
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Bug
After some weeks (in game), the cursor (horse) starts to flicker, gets unstable, and slows down every command and action.
How can i fix this?
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 06:41 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 19:14, 03 Oct 2017.
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Skeggy said:
The difference is this:
Attacker is Mauler, has 38A, 21D, damage 5-7, cumulative Mauler stock damage when his attack is greater than defenders defense (Rakshasa Kshatra, 31A, 37D) defense is 1844-2583 (14-19 kills).
After pumping up defender’s defense with mass endurance (Rakshasa Kshatra 31A, 52D) Mauler’s damage is reduced to 1221 – 1709 (9-13 kills), so difference is significant, 34% less because now defender has bigger defense than attacker has its attack, so, different formula is triggered.
Yes, this is correct example of situation where A < D (but not very much where A << D). I agree with that extra defense is effective here.
A << D is starting near ~30 difference or more (if 3.33% stats). Difference between concrete units (with concrete hero's bonuses), not abstract difference between heroes' A and D.
EDIT:
Example from TotE (because 5% stats are comfortable while 3.33% are nightmarish).
1. You have -20 difference D < A and get +12D, so damage dealt to you was 200%, became 140% (or decrease total damage from 100% to 70%).
2. You have +20 difference D > A and get +12D (D >> A), so damage dealt to you was 50%, became ~38,5% (or decrease total damage from 100% to 77%).
So the first situation is more profitable for you, because 30% decreasing damage is greater than 23%.
But the first situation was D < A, the second was D >> A, so D >> A is worse than D < A.
3. You have +0 difference and get +12D (D > A), so damage dealt to you was 100%, became 62,5%, or 37,5% decreasing damage. This is much better than cases 1 (D < A) and 2 (D >> A).
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 07:07 PM |
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Fidanas said:
After some weeks (in game), the cursor (horse) starts to flicker, gets unstable, and slows down every command and action.
How can i fix this?
If you’re using software cursors, you could try changing it to hardware. You can change them in “Options” -> “Video & Audio” -> “Use HW cursor”.
I remember that bug from homm 5 before expansion packs were released. I think Heroes 5 game used to have “enable vertical sync” option-button.
Gog version of homm5 tote doesn’t have “enable vertical sync” option-button, so if changing cursors to hardware doesn’t help, you could try to enable vertical sync using graphic card control panel.
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Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 07:15 PM |
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Thanks, i try it right now but it won't work. It's not just a visual bug in my opinion. It's an ingame bug that triggers spontaneously. The cursors flickers (changes from horse to hourglass), just as it needs to load something.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 07:18 PM |
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@Fidanas:
This is the same bug Twidel was stalking about:
lower AI lookahead depth to normal (lowest setting) and if it doesn't work, play map smaller than Huge + underground.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 07:23 PM |
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Thank you, i'll try to lower the recomended option and play again. But i can't promise that i'll leave out all this great juge maps. It's just a shame :-)
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 07:51 PM |
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Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 08:48 PM |
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I'm playing constantly these days H55-3P-Triangle. It hasn't underground but it's huge nevertheless. The bug may or may not happen.And it's not maps error, since it occured and on another map as well a week ago.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 09:09 PM |
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Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 09:16 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 09:37 PM |
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 04, 2017 12:29 AM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 02:09, 04 Oct 2017.
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Attacker is Archangel, has 49A, 57D, damage 51 - 51, cumulative Archangel stock damage (20 in stock) when his attack is greater than defenders defense (Silver Unicorn, 41A, 36D) is 1443 (18 kills).
After pumping up defender’s defense with endurance (+9D but effectively +8D), (Silver Unicorn, 41A, 44D), Archangel deals 1176 damage (15 kills). So, formula for damage stayed the same (A>D) because Archangel attack was still higher then Champions defense.
Damage difference between first A>D damage equation and second A>D damage equation for effective +8 defense is 18% less damage.
Attacker is Archangel, has 49A, 57D, damage 51 - 51, cumulative Archangel stock damage (20 in stock) when his attack is greater than defenders defense (Emerald Dragon, 55A, 46D) is 1109 (5 kills).
After pumping up defender’s defense with endurance (+9D but effectively +8D), (Emerald Dragon, 55A, 54D), Archangel deals 866 damage (4 kills). So, formula for damage in second attack changed because Archangel attack was lower than Emerald Dragon’s defense after Emerald Dragon got endurance.
Damage difference between first A>D equation and second D>A equation for effective +8 defense is 22% less damage.
Duel is between Irina and Ossir in Duel Mode, interval results can be replicated, although not exactly same if new combat is started because enlightenment skill will redistribute 13 primary points with new pattern.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 04, 2017 01:06 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 01:16, 04 Oct 2017.
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@Skeggy:
If you will continue your tests at other differences, you will see that the general factor at effective attack/deffense is concrete difference, switching formula (before/after) is only one of the particular cases, the most effective case, but other cases are differ at efficiency too.
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Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 04, 2017 09:59 AM |
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Edited by Fidanas at 10:01, 04 Oct 2017.
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As we spoke yesterday, i played with the lookahead normal as you sujested. This afternoon i'll continue and hopefully test it for about 3 to 4 hours continuosly, so i'll test the results.
I play the game in two computers, both of them quite powerful to say at least. I can't tell clocks etc, but one of them is on i5 windows 7, and the other i7 windows 10. Both with Nvidia cards of 300 euros aproximatelly (not so technical info, but i hope it helps).
P.S. AI was set offensive as default appears.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 04, 2017 11:28 AM |
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@Fidanas: Thanks for the info, because error is reported by small group of people and somehow never happens to others, I try to establish the circumstances more clearly.
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