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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 354 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 320 ... 345 346 347 348 349 ... 354 · «PREV / NEXT»
Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted May 08, 2018 08:20 PM

dredknight said:
@Gidoza, I  believe that the issue with the AI is way more complex to be decided with one swipe because the current AI is tweaked left and right to be competitive and brings meaningful challenge of some sort.

You can think of it of Frankenstein of some sort. It is made to bring human like challenge by artificially giving him boosts here and there (bonus army, low aggressiveness against AIs compared to human players and so on) but this does not fixes the issue that it is a Frankenstein. Heroes V AI sucks, Quantomas AI is better but in its majority is still not that good as it is halfway abandoned project (so Q got onto a better one ).

AI is that bad not that Ubisoft and Quantomas work is not that good but because Heroes is a game of constant decisions based on presumptions (The player does not always know what is ahead, guards are not always visible, NPC total strength is unknown, battlefield specifics are unknown until the battle commence, map zones are unknown, enemy players progress and situation is unknown etc..).

Gidoza said:
And Magno - I'm aware of H3 AI's stupid decisions; nevertheless, sometimes the foolishness of the H3 AI is wiser than the H5 AI.  The H3 AI can miscalculate with power, but it at least has a good general overall sense, and moreover knows to automatically throw all its heroes at the nearest town if it has none remaining: it seems silly until one sees a massive H5 army vanish into nothingness because for some reason this one instruction never managed to make it in.  Oh, well.



Heroes 5 is more complex that heroes 3 thus the AI seems more stupid because there is more decision making involved. Human mind learns to operate tools (in this situation is the H5 game) in exponential rate until it is satisfied with the control or reach his/her limits. In the era of heroes 3 and heroes 5 machine learning/cognition was not existent or at most in early stages so AI behavior was based on predefined assumptions which work in a simple tasks.

For example - If hungry go to the fridge and eat; if thirsty go the the kitchen, get a cup, sip a water, drink.

But lets say the house the robot live in is on fire and it is hungry. The AI will still go to eat.
Lets say the AI is thirsty, it will go in the "Thirsty" task flow but what if there are no cups to pick?

Assumption programming fails at complex tasks because there can be infinite dependencies between tasks. Even if possible the developer is not able to assume all variants without testing and in heroes the range of possibilities is infinite. Translating this in simple language - When was the last time you packed for a week and did not forget something or did wish you have taken something that you did not? or took stuff that were never used ?

Sorry for the long post.


Long post is fine and I understand it all.  All I can say is that one of the main complaints is precisely amongst the most easy - that AI doesn't take free castles.  This has nothing to do with infinite variables but only a single one.  Now if this is an unsurmountable bug, that's one thing - nevertheless, it's one of the most glaring things (among other glaring simple issues) that makes the H5 AI ineffective.  While all the unit movements and spells make for many situations where a human will have superior performance, it's the simple things that enable the H5 AI to have at least a fundamental ability of performance, and it lacks this.


magnomagus said:
You have to differentiate between situations where the Ai is completely blind to the existence of a town because of a bug, and the situations where the Ai actually makes an attack decision. These are different things.

I know there are areas where the h3 ai works better, but those have no meaning to me. In h5 I can mostly get at least one good battle out of each AI player (and I don't care if I needed to attack to get it).
In h3 I don't get any good battles from the AI or from neutrals unless the challenge was handcrafted by the mapmaker.

I prefer the AI all allied and turtling, this makes the first battle very challenging because I am allowed only very little losses, otherwise I cannot kill AI 2,3 and maybe 4. Ultimately the game is about getting to the victory screen, which can be extremely difficult, regardless of the AI making stupid moves. In fact playing against multiple allied AI can be more difficult than playing against one human, because against one human all that matters is who has the last man standing at the end of the final battle. You don't need to make complex estimations about how many losses you can make on each battle in the sequence.



Interesting as my experience is the opposite.  I can only get good fights out of H5 AI by setting up things for it beforehand.  I would also give the H3 AI bufds to help it out to be sure, but it exploits these far better than I've ever seen H5's AI able to manage.  At least H3's spell choices *sometimes* make sense...

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 08, 2018 08:35 PM

Gidoza said:
dredknight said:
@Gidoza, I agree with you but the AI topic is exhausted long ago as besides this little tweaks proposed here and there, AI cannot be changed. The only one that can do such thing is Quantomas. Lets wait and see what the future will bring us .


Indeed - I am looking forward to what that might bring!


At latets news Quantomas is still working on his new AI.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 08, 2018 10:04 PM

Quote:
For the archives, the most glaring, consistent issues I've had with it doing obviously stupid/broken things:
+Raks constantly using dash and sitting there
+Ranged units using spells when they should be shooting my ranged units (Priests, Mistresses, Liches)
+Pit Fiends using dark spells when they should be using their destruction spells.  




Actually those points are all related to the combat map AI, Quantomas made no changes to this AI in 31j. This is all original issues. Also Quantomas recent postings seem to suggest he has until now worked on the adventure AI exclusively and will maybe move to combat later.

In my book the pit fiends are not really an issue, for balance I think it is better this way.





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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 08, 2018 11:19 PM
Edited by dredknight at 09:10, 09 May 2018.

@Magno,

Not sure if you got the report for Celestial Shield inconsistency.
In RC10 beta 4 description says that 100% damage reduction is achieved at 50 spellpower while formula in the XML is set for 60 spellpower. Which one should be the right one?

P.S.

Also can you add this question to the FAQ. It has been asked at least gazillion times.
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fidanas
fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted May 09, 2018 06:32 AM

Hall of fame...

...or, end game screen.
I think i didn't liked it from scratch. I loved previous Heroes ranking and hall of fame when you finished a map. I don't know if this may change, or makes any sense to you guys. But for me was something to anticipate and play a map to it's finale.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 09, 2018 12:22 PM

@dredknight: ok done
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Kranyum
Kranyum

Tavern Dweller
posted May 11, 2018 10:01 AM
Edited by Kranyum at 10:17, 11 May 2018.

thGryphn said:
Gidoza said:
magnomagus said:
the min/max dmg values from defaultstats are not read, so they are the same as in toe (hardcoded)


That still doesn't explain how the formula works.

My assumption, if I'm understanding the guide correctly, is that attack and defence have no influence over one another as they did in Heroes 3 (where the matter is how much more you have of one over the other).  Rather here, it seems that each attack point individually increases damage by 2.5% per point, so 40 would be double damage, 80 triple, and 120 is quadruple max.  Meanwhile, Defence increases "theoretical hit points" rather than actually reducing damage, but matching it out yields that 40 Defence halves damage, 80 is a third, and 120 is a quarter max.  Is this correct?


No.
Here is the hardcoded "damage dealt" formula in Heroes 5, and thus MMH5.5...


If (A)ttack Stat of attacker > (D)efense Stat of defender, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor * [1 + DamageMultiplier * (A-D)]



Else If D > A, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor / [1 + DamageMultiplier * (D-A)]




In original ToTE, DamageMultiplier = 0.05.

Currently in MMH5.5, DamageMultiplier = 0.025.





Does the AI computer have some kind of extra bonus compared to this formula somehow?

I could swear that the AI does more damage to me that I do to it...

Case in point,

11 Enemy Sharpshooters (damage 7-9) with attack skill of 16 shot my Sky Daughters with defense skill of 20 for 111. (luck did not proc)

According to my calculations above the damage should be maximum:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor / [1 + DamageMultiplier * (D-A)] = 9 * 11 / [1 + 0.025 * (20-16)] = 90

And if the Hero had Archery - that would be an extra of 90 * 1.2 = 108.

So how come did they hit for 111?


Nevermind, I forgot about force arrow

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fidanas
fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted May 11, 2018 06:59 PM

Options Options

Started to play all my maps again. I will burn them all.......hahaha. Warlock once more. This time i tweek all maps in editor. Two teams. The one is me, the other...all other AI against me.
Casual Game-Impossible
After that, the only thing that will remain, would be the suicidal level, the one that gives more troops and gold in all other AI. All against me.
What a beautiful game!
What a beautiful mod!
Thank you my Magistrate, once more.
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JacekK
JacekK

Tavern Dweller
posted May 12, 2018 01:05 AM
Edited by JacekK at 01:12, 12 May 2018.

Hero attack effects

Hi there.

Sorry if it was asked already, but I can't find it anywhere.

There are several effects that boost a hero's attack; my question is, which of those effects apply on attacks that are caused by abilities - Retaliation Strike, Chain Attack and Avenging Strike.

Let's take a Ranger hero, for example.
Which of the following effects can trigger on attacks that result from the abilities mentioned above:
- Favored Enemy critical?
- Martial Arts critical? (can it stack with Favored Enemy critical or are those just two different ways to trigger the same thing - a critical strike?)
- +3 hero level bonus from Deadeye Shot?
- Stunning Strike's ATB loss?
- Imbue Arrow's spellcast?
- Strike of Suffering (Dark Magic - assuming a non-Ranger or a witch hut lesson etc.)

Thanks in advance.
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azalen
azalen


Adventuring Hero
posted May 12, 2018 06:41 AM

JacekK said:
Hi there.

Sorry if it was asked already, but I can't find it anywhere.

There are several effects that boost a hero's attack; my question is, which of those effects apply on attacks that are caused by abilities - Retaliation Strike, Chain Attack and Avenging Strike.

Let's take a Ranger hero, for example.
Which of the following effects can trigger on attacks that result from the abilities mentioned above:
- Favored Enemy critical?
- Martial Arts critical? (can it stack with Favored Enemy critical or are those just two different ways to trigger the same thing - a critical strike?)
- +3 hero level bonus from Deadeye Shot?
- Stunning Strike's ATB loss?
- Imbue Arrow's spellcast?
- Strike of Suffering (Dark Magic - assuming a non-Ranger or a witch hut lesson etc.)

Thanks in advance.


Don't have all the answers here, but I can tell you that Stunning Strike will triggers off chain attacks (that's what makes it good - reducing initiative from both your hero and your ranged unit attacks).  Martial arts also triggers off chain attack (chain attack states it in the description).  

I don't know if Ranger specials trigger off retaliation strike or stunning strike.  I would guess Dead Eye does, because it is a static ability.  I have no idea about Rain of Arrows.

Imbue Arrow, I'm usually thinking Arcane Avenger, so usually not even thinking about combat when I take that.    

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Alone in the Forest
posted May 12, 2018 12:34 PM

Afaik stunning blow works with deadeye shot but not rain of arrows. And similarly, rain of arrows won't cause a weakening effect.
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lokiseto
lokiseto

Tavern Dweller
posted May 14, 2018 05:42 PM

Vanilla AI vs Mod AI

@dredknight

We started the utility64 version, but it seems the mod doesn't work, as we tried to check the 8 skills option in the interface - seems that doesn't work.

Could it be, that the TotE and Mod AI are incompatible?

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 14, 2018 06:23 PM

Utility_64.exe is default ToTe exe with some modifications.
It does not have Quantomas changes. This refers to the new AI and 8 skills.
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lokiseto
lokiseto

Tavern Dweller
posted May 14, 2018 07:06 PM
Edited by lokiseto at 19:07, 14 May 2018.

Does this allow for new army stacks and ultimates?

So if I understand you correctly,
by some modifications/compatibility with the 5.5 Mod you mean the ability to play 5.5 maps with slightly changed creature stats, map objects, changed hero skills/abilities/artifacts.

If that's it, we're good for the next round.
I like the 8 skill system but can run along with the ultimate skill system just fine.

Thanks again

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 14, 2018 07:58 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 20:00, 14 May 2018.

lokiseto said:
So if I understand you correctly,
by some modifications/compatibility with the 5.5 Mod you mean the ability to play 5.5 maps with slightly changed creature stats, map objects, changed hero skills/abilities/artifacts.

If that's it, we're good for the next round.
I like the 8 skill system but can run along with the ultimate skill system just fine.

Thanks again


8 skills in (MMH5.5 context) refers to being able to learn two more skills on top of the 6 skills that can be learned by a hero. It does not refer to the skill system introduced by MMH5.5.

So, the "Utility" exe will enable all the content and modifications (including the skill system) MMH5.5 brings, except for the new AI (aka Quantomas 3.1j AI) and the ability to learn 8 skills per hero.

It thus means, the old skill system (ultimate perks, etc) is not going to be there by simply using the "Utility" exe. Skill system is the backbone of MMH5.5 and you cannot play it with the old skill system. I suppose you can dissect it and take parts of the other content, such as new creature stats, etc. but it wouldn't be MMH5.5. All the modifications to game dynamics, creature stats, spell system and specs are designed to come together with the new skill system. Without the skill system, everything else fall apart and simply don't make much sense...


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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 16, 2018 07:48 PM

@Hey Magno,

Could you send me NCF_Exes for RC10 Beta 4 and RC9c. There are 4 exes per release:
- MMH55_Utility_NCF.exe
- MMH55_NCF.exe
- MMH55_Editor_NCF.exe
- MMH55_64_NCF.exe


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 17, 2018 01:43 AM

RC10 Beta 4 has no NCF exes, since it was rebuild for level cap hack,
with regards to older versions I don't have anything you don't have.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 17, 2018 08:54 AM

Thanks ! So RC9c and RC9b share the same exes.

Who makes the NCF exes if not you? Was it Psatka? How can I convert it alone so I do not bother you.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 17, 2018 05:52 PM

you might be able to trace the modifications made by psathka by making comparisons in a hex editor, the post from sfidanza at the bottom of this page might help find which differences are related to NCF:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=24698&pagenumber=1
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aquarius32
aquarius32

Tavern Dweller
posted May 18, 2018 07:48 PM
Edited by aquarius32 at 19:52, 18 May 2018.

Thank you for this great mod! I'm having a peculiar problem with it. When trying to acess the in-game skillwheel from the adventure map I get the background but the screen is blank as if the buttons didn't load:

https://ibb.co/d3GHMT

When accessing the skillwheel from the hero's menu the problem disappears and it works as normal. However when accessing it from the level-up window, the graphics do appear but then the level-up window blocks the wheel:

https://ibb.co/ng16Fo

The problem persists even after uninstalling and reinstalling the mod, and uninstalling and reinstalling the game. It occurs in both 32 and 64 bit .exes (though my computer is 64 bit), and I'm not using NCF or other mods. Is this issue known? Any ideas how to solve this? I'll appreciate any help with this.
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