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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 400 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 ... 392 393 394 395 396 ... 400 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 03, 2019 03:51 PM

ok since multiplayer seems to become more popular and a large update is likely far away I should probably release one index update RC12c, to fix the last balance issues, so everybody can agree on same version

stunning strike 0.2
chain attack remove 0.1 melee bonus
infernal loom 0.2
divine guardians minor fix

if there are more balance issues to discuss I recommend start discussing them now.


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bulya
bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 03, 2019 04:45 PM
Edited by bulya at 16:46, 03 Nov 2019.

Stunning strike seems fair.
(I mean the nerf seems fair)

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 03, 2019 05:52 PM

First: Thumbs up for Bulya of course. He put in day and night for that site lately and turned the idea into reality incredibly well

2nd: you mean to nerf to 0.2 atb reduction instead of 0.4?
I defnitley welcome the stun nerf, but maybe its to much (maybe its actually justified, but its a big jump). I d go for 0.3 first maybe.

Is infernal loom the hellhound production thingy? again i think halfing may be a little to much and would rather go for 0.3.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 03, 2019 06:25 PM

I think it should be 0.2 because it can be performed 2x as much as magic stun

also I checked a bit of aruarian stream yesterday and the fight at 1h16m
convinced me its 0.2 not 0.3, he should have been in more trouble there.
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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 03, 2019 06:41 PM

you mean 1:16 or 1:33? 1:16 is a pretty straight forward fight with what ever hero. The fight at 1:33 aswell can be done in a lot of ways, but stunning strike is by far the easiest.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 03, 2019 07:03 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 19:04, 03 Nov 2019.

magnomagus said:
I think it should be 0.2 because it can be performed 2x as much as magic stun

also I checked a bit of aruarian stream yesterday and the fight at 1h16m
convinced me its 0.2 not 0.3, he should have been in more trouble there.


But there is Sorcery to boost magic stun frequency. You don't have that mechanism for might.

0.2 is going to make it too weak.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 03, 2019 07:17 PM

Quote:
But there is Sorcery to boost magic stun frequency. You don't have that mechanism for might.


You need to invest your lvl ups into that though, so it can not be taken for granted.

Still i agree that i think 0.3 is a good value. If its still OP after further testing, one could adjust it again.
Might will have a more powerful stun, but magic has flexibility that might doesnt have.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 03, 2019 07:22 PM

@Magno,

Marko will do the flaming arrows patch (2*hero lvl).
Wait for him to fit it in this release.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 03, 2019 07:25 PM

@frogo, I meant 1:16:33 more precisely, but I'm not saying the fights should be lost, the frequency of attack makes it too easy to keep all stacks stunned, the neutrals should have been more dangerous, at least have required him to bother with more 1-unit stacks

@thGryphn:
only ice bolt has a flat stun, lightning is weaker multiply stun, but ice is more expensive, strike is free.

infernal loom 0.3 might still cause farming effect on Xl maps, maybe better use 1+0.2.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 03, 2019 07:35 PM

@dredknight: Ok sounds awesome, i will wait, but multiple updated files is more hassle for players, so have to think about method of release
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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 03, 2019 08:01 PM
Edited by Bulya at 20:04, 03 Nov 2019.

My thoughts regarding stun:
The current stun is truly too powerful, should be nerfed. And the nerf suggested is fine.

The downside of the nerf though, is that it will weaken the might classes that are already quite fragile and more risky (classes like overlords and chieftains), while classes like engineers and knights won't be effected as much by this nerf.

@thGryphn its not exactly true that might doesn't have a similar mechanic. The stun can be done twice a turn because the stun is chained on a creature. Morale for example can make it so that the stun can be done even more often then twice per turn, and leadership is a very good skill in general for might classes.
Another mechanic that helps is that if the chain is put on a creature with a lot of init (say a blood maidance, a pheonix, an imperial griffin, etc) then the even without any interruptions the stun is done way more the twice per turn. Not to speak of the option to cast haste on that very same creature, which will make the stun more often as well.

Speaking of the blood maidance, I think overlords will be those who will suffer the most from this nerf, and I don't think overlords are that strong. At least not as reliable as an engineer or a knight. And engineers can do it without stun at all, same goes for knights. So these classes won't hurt as much with this nerf, while a fragile class like the overlord will be nerfed quite a lot.

In other words, may be it shouldn't be nerfed as much, and some other way of nerfing might classes should be looked into. A way that effects engineers and knights more.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 03, 2019 08:08 PM

@Bulya,

Just remove the additional magic wells that you placed on the arena maps and balance is restored . Besides Balista is still a powerhouse.
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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 03, 2019 08:13 PM

@dredknight Without those wells magic doesn't have a chance.

I agree that Balista can be nerfed, and perhaps a Balista nerf will be better then nerfing stun to 0.2.
Perhaps a combo of nerfing stun to say 0.3 and Balista can be a good one, as this one will effect engineers and knights as much and perhaps even more then Overlords, Rangers, Chieftains (which is good!).

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 03, 2019 08:41 PM
Edited by dredknight at 20:42, 03 Nov 2019.

Lets stick to what we are certain for the moment.
MMH55 mat be going into hibernation but sooner or later development cycle will start again.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 03, 2019 08:46 PM

overpowering a skill is never a solution to balancing a weak class, if such a problem exists it must be solved elsewhere.
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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 03, 2019 08:56 PM

I didn't propose overpowering a skill.

I said that the nerf is necessary, and a better balance can be achieved by nerfing the balista as well, which will allow us nerfing the stun not as hard as was proposed.

Keeping the balance is tricky, and light nerfs to 2 mechanics can achieve better balance as hard nerf to a single mechanic will make those who rely on it way weaker then those that can do without it, which makes things imbalanced.

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tihi85
tihi85

Tavern Dweller
posted November 03, 2019 11:43 PM

Did anyone test Empowered Armageddon? For me its still bugged.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2019 08:33 AM

Well, everyone is so busy nerfing the might classes but no one seems to be bothered with Summon Hive + Wasp Swarm combo, which is the most effective stunning solution in game by far. Bloody Hive not only immediately blocks a shooter, it completely decimates it for the rest of the battle with Expert Wasp Swarm (no matter your Summoning level is) and with an initiative as high as 12+0.2xPower (20 spellpower gives you 16 initiative), stunning and damaging at the same time.

You might say that it doesn't work on Elemental+Necro but Occultism solves that "problem", as well as mind negate artifact. Sure it requires mana but it is so powerful that I get bored of playing Summoning casters. Add on top of this other canceling spells like Blind, Frenzy and Hypnotize...

What I'm saying is that magic has its "magic", and much more powerful, so ridding the might of its own is not fair.

The problem at the end is that the effectiveness of magic tools scale with hero level and map size but might's stun does not, and only because that the consensus seems to nerf the only might stun tool there is. This outcome does not makes sense to me at all.

The fellows who are working on reverse engineering, they should put priority into finding a way to changing the stunning blow ATB formula to depend on hero level, if at all possible.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 04, 2019 10:59 AM

actually I wasn't that busy with it, I can easily afford to nerf summon hive as well.
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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 04, 2019 11:19 AM

We ve had the comparison between Hive and chain/stun already and i can only repeat what i said back then. The comparison is lacking in many ways, as the investment is a whole diffrent one.

investment for chain/stun combo:
2 perks

investment into summon Hive:
- you need to get the spell (build lvl 4 guild and actually get Hive. Guild is generally build after dwellings, so this takes long)
- Expert summon
- Its a very mana intensive spell as the wasp swarms casted by the Hive drain mana aswell. So something like consume corpse or perks in Sorcery are needed.
-The hero stats (sp and knowledge are needed, while might gets stronger units instead)

Generally a whole magic hero build is focused on magic.
You cant just compare this to a might hero who casually picks up 2 perks and is done with it and then expect this to be equal or even close to equal to what the magic hero casts.


Quote:
The fellows who are working on reverse engineering, they should put priority into finding a way to changing the stunning blow ATB formula to depend on hero level, if at all possible.



I have do disagree here aswell. This would probably weaken the might heroes early game a lot (could use a slight weakening, but i think this would result into to much) and lategame might heroes can do it without stun anyway, its more a bonus.


In the greater picture i agree though, i think lowering it to 0.2 may be to much. stun down to 0.3 is defnitley justified, but i wouldnt go further than that for now.



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