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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 400 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 80 160 240 320 ... 396 397 398 399 400 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 05, 2019 06:51 PM

Quote:
Well,yeah if we balance anything towards the strength of reavers, we have a lot to do
I wasnt comparing anything to reavers because they are no option for anyone who wants to actually win a game (without being a superior player by far).


Could you guys elaborate on this, I would like to have this issue solved as well, if possible?
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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 05, 2019 07:14 PM
Edited by Bulya at 19:17, 05 Nov 2019.

+1 to fury growth would already have been enough for me.
0.25 stun is fine I think. I just wanted to make sure Chieftains and Overlords aren't nerfed too hard out of the needed nerf to stun. Another nerf could be a balista one, as dred said most builds in the tournament go around a might hero with balista tend and stun. (may be if Frogo chooses Zehir, his favorite hero, then we'll see some magic domination, but he won't do it on the ARMG map for sure)

I can do it with Fortress without combat, even though its a good skill for Fortress in my opinion, and Frogo will prefer magic over might if he knows the maps and where the wells are. I think he simply enjoys playing the heroes he didn't explore as much. Fortress is the most explored faction for me, but I don't play it anymore unless I know I have to do my best, simply because its already a bit boring for me.

I'm the one who plays mostly might heroes, so I can spot what is too OP for might the might classes. I think I already wrote about stun being too strong a while ago.
But I want Knights and Engineers to be nerfed as well, so that they won't feel way stronger the Chieftains for example (and I think engineers will feel stronger then Overlords now). Perhaps a nerf to WM can do it.

Regarding Reavers, relying on Dark magic is quite hard in the early game. While dark magic is perhaps the powerful of them all when it comes to the very late stages of the game, it helps very little early on. A Necromancer or a Death Knight feels way stronger.
You can check the Necro guide by azalen, and see that he rates the Reavers as the worst heroes of Necro. The early game is way too hard for them, and there is no skill they can pick to make it easier for them.
Paladins for example can get Combat and survive the early game, and having good stats for magic and defense later on which is good at least for a magic vs might PvP. But Reavers don't have those tools or strategies at their disposal, so they feel weak early on and since they are weak early on they can't level up and get enough arties to make it for the hard early game they have.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 05, 2019 07:19 PM

magnomagus said:
Quote:
Well,yeah if we balance anything towards the strength of reavers, we have a lot to do
I wasnt comparing anything to reavers because they are no option for anyone who wants to actually win a game (without being a superior player by far).


Could you guys elaborate on this, I would like to have this issue solved as well, if possible?


I don't have much experience playing Reavers (maybe that already says something) so I can't add here.

I thought 0.3 for stun was good enough a nerf but alas.

magnomagus said:

When a skill makes people doubt it is the best choice but never neglect it, it is likely balanced, as long as people see it a sure pick it is not!



Could it be that people pick it surely because that's the only viable option for creeping early game for might heroes, more so especially for fragile armies like the Dungeon??

Even with a nerf to 0.25, or even lower, I would pick the Chain+Stun combo to start with, along with War Machines + Tent or Ballista (depending on the faction). There is not many viable options if you wanna creep with few losses as possible for a might hero. Reduce the stun strength low enough and no one will pick it (as if that's a better outcome).

So, the thought process that "everyone picks it, so it must be OP" is not that valid here...

Let's experiment with 0.25 for a while and see how it goes. We can actually do so even before an official update by manually editing the DefaultStats.xdb, but we can get the update with 0.25 and revisit the "issue" later.



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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 07:25 PM
Edited by frogo at 19:39, 05 Nov 2019.

Quote:
Could you guys elaborate on this, I would like to have this issue solved as well, if possible?



I think with the way classes work, it is impossible to have them all balanced for all maps.
By how classes work i mean that each class has a particular skill
assigned to it.
Some skills are better late, some better early, this is difficult to balance.

A few examples:
-Artificer is a decent skill for sure, but utterly useless early.
Therefore a hero that has artificer in his repertoire but not as his starting skill will always be preferable towards a hero that starts with it. The hero that doesnt start with it can choose it when its time to shine has come.

-Assasins start with logistics. Logistics again is a fine skill, but it obviously offers nothing in combat strength. Generally a hero picks up log only when he feels like he is strong enough to actually use the faster movement.

-Reavers also fall in this category. Dark magic is decent, but it just doesnt offer enough for early game, so generally heroes pick it up later. Starting with it is just far from optimal.

-Runemages starting with runelore is pretty underwhelming aswell. Again, runelore is a super strong lategame skill, but useless in early game. You dont have runes in early game and even if you did, you dont want to throw out all your ressources on creeps.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 05, 2019 07:39 PM

Well, Wizards more than make up for the Artificer starting skill, and I don't find them weak at any stage of the game.

Assassins present a good similarity to Reavers, but you are right that some classes are simply not tuned for early game, so they are a bad choice for small maps, which is just fine.

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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 05, 2019 07:40 PM
Edited by Bulya at 19:41, 05 Nov 2019.

@Frogo I agree, but there is more.

While some classes have a compensation for the fact they start with a starting skill that have little use, I can think of Rangers and Paladins come to mind, mainly due to strong t1, t2, t3 creatures of Sylvan that makes it fine the first days, and getting either combat or WM makes it fine later on (I already wrote my opinion about Paladins above). Reavers don't really have any compensation for that. Their early game isn't good because the low tier creatures of Necro aren't that strong and there is no skill they are likely to get to make their early game easier.

I barely played with Reavers, but unless WM appears as one of the 5 first level-ups (which have very little chance to happen, and might even force a bad build if one counts on it) then the early game just goes very poorly for them.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 07:56 PM
Edited by frogo at 19:59, 05 Nov 2019.

Quote:
Wizards more than make up for the Artificer starting skill, and I don't find them weak at any stage of the game


I think wizards are still behind most might and magic classes, but i agree that they are pretty decent. My point was more that they d obviously be stronger if they didnt start with artificer, but had it open as a later option.

Quote:
you are right that some classes are simply not tuned for early game, so they are a bad choice for small maps, which is just fine


I kinda disagree here. The problem is not the size of the map.
A hero that starts with good starting skills and then picks strong late game skills will always be superior to a hero that starts with late game skills and then has to pick early game skills to somehow manage creeping.
The variable that decides if these heroes are playable is more creep-strength rather than map size. If creeps are weak, they can somewhat make it through and maybe get to equal ground in late game. For any strong hero that would mean creeping stage is nothing but a little point-and-click adventure that he can play on auto-pilot.


@Bulya
True, some heroes still have some kind of option to make it through,
as you said, Rangers are a good example. But even here, i think its out of questions that if rangers started with an early game skill, they would be a lot stronger. Some heroes having some kind of compensation isnt solving the problem itself.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 05, 2019 08:46 PM

frogo said:

Quote:
you are right that some classes are simply not tuned for early game, so they are a bad choice for small maps, which is just fine


I kinda disagree here. The problem is not the size of the map.
A hero that starts with good starting skills and then picks strong late game skills will always be superior to a hero that starts with late game skills and then has to pick early game skills to somehow manage creeping.
The variable that decides if these heroes are playable is more creep-strength rather than map size. If creeps are weak, they can somewhat make it through and maybe get to equal ground in late game. For any strong hero that would mean creeping stage is nothing but a little point-and-click adventure that he can play on auto-pilot.




Well, we don't exactly disagree.
It's just that when the map is large enough, the gap between "good creepers to begin with" and "others" diminish and become nothing to speak of. When the map is small, "others" have no time or chance to close the gap and it's game over before they know it.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 06, 2019 01:07 PM

I think some of the imbalances discussed here are also much more pronounced on maps where the monster stacks are very close together, causing the armies to be weak compared to the hero.

On deadlyenvironment, the players seemed to progress faster than the stacks inside battle sites, on ARMG maps I have not seen this happen much, you are slowed down by starting with only a tavern and need cash badly.

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bulya
bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 06, 2019 01:31 PM
Edited by bulya at 13:52, 06 Nov 2019.

I agree that DeadlyEnvironment is quite unique by how many fights are taken per day.

But still, we played with Frogo on ARMG maps, especially the new Jebus template quite a lot. We also added a bit modified versions of such a map to the map pool of the tournament. We modified it because it seemed like might is too powerful and the blue starting location was in a too good of a spot. Not only by means of creep and goodies, but also having an option to buy the maps for all the map for just 4K gold was giving too much info for the blue player, so it was switched with a defense stat boost building, and 2 wells were added on each side so that it was playable with Magic.

But with the games we played on the ARMG maps, while the pace was a bit different, the rules didn't change as much. Even though the difficulty level was set to Heroic for those games, unlike the impossible settings we like to set on maps like DeadlyEnvironment, Lets Fight!, and other maps we play, each of us started with scratch. And we had to fight the creep (which we like to set to be very strong, I think it was a 4 level difficulty for that, mainly Frogo made those maps) with small armies due to the slower build up of our towns.
So the heroes that had a boost to their creeping abilities still ruled on those maps as well. As each of us tried losing the least amount of army possible, as everything was very limiting, and too much of a loss meant wasting a few turns till there is enough army to resume creeping. And avoiding those fights meant losing a lot of momentum by both, being behind on levels as well as resources and artifacts which give a huge boost to the mid and late game capabilities of the hero.

So even though on Deadly Environment things look different then on the ARMG maps, it wasn't as different when it comes to the heroes that could do well on those.
The main difference was that might heroes were even more dominating then magic heroes. While on Deadly Environment (or Crossing Rivers, another map Frogo made), he could choose one of his favorite magic heores and beat me hard. On the ARMG maps I had a huge advantage if I played a might hero vs his magic hero, even if it was one of his favorite ones. As I said, perhaps his strongest set-up is with Zehir (Academy magic class), but on the ARMG maps he was helpless with him.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 06, 2019 01:42 PM
Edited by frogo at 13:50, 06 Nov 2019.

Quote:
I think some of the imbalances discussed here are also much more pronounced on maps where the monster stacks are very close together, causing the armies to be weak compared to the hero.



I am not quiete sure if i understand you correctly here, so i ll just answer both interpretations

___________________________________________________________________

In case you meant "creeps are weak in comparsion to hero-strength":

Quote:
On deadlyenvironment, the players seemed to progress faster than the stacks inside battle sites, on ARMG maps I have not seen this happen much


As the creeps strength on DeadlyEnvironment is set manually (obviously can differ in what units the RNG chooses), this should not have any effect. If you progress faster, you just make a steeper curve for creep strength when setting creeps. This has been done and adjusted with a lot of testing. Also, your statement somewhat implies that creeping on ARMG is harder than on DeadlyEnvironment, which i very much disagree with. I suppose you could set ARMG monsters to impossible and then you d probs gets stronger creeps.
This wouldnt help the balance issue at all though, heroes starting with late-game skills would be dead right from the start.


__________________________________________________________________

In case you meant "Hero is to strong in comparison to his own army he carries"

The hero plays a big role at any stage in creeping (counting WM as hero strength here aswell). I also dont see how having money problems would help this issue, as this would only result in less armies (besides, you may overestimate the money you have in DE. I generally choose money as bonus in DE and troops in ARMG as a might hero, because i can make it without the money on ARMG). Also on DE, you already start with a few dwellings and get your 2nd town rather quickly. It is true, that the hero gains in levles fast due to the creep-density, but its somewhat proportional to his army gains due to having t1-3 dwelling build already + dwellings on the map + early 2nd town.
This results in a rather quick "early game", which, if anything should help those heroes being weak in the early game. They still fall behind. Admittedly, DE is really not helping the weaker heroes like reavers/runemages etc. but thats not due to the high creep density, but rather the high creep strength. I made sure that any hero i see as "reasonable" can make it.

____________________________________________________________________

Heroes starting with late game skills are inferior no matter how you tweak the map unless you make creeps so easy that creeping can be done no matter how weak your hero is. ARMG maps are definately no exception to that.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 06, 2019 02:27 PM

I didn't mean creeping is harder or easier, just that it is a different game. In the end, you could lower neutrals to 'RMG medium strength', if your opponent is good you may be in trouble, after all what applies to you, also applies to your opponent.

But I also realize I can no longer generalize 'ARMG maps' as in the old days, since now there are big differences between the templates. Jebus is really an outlier with 2 'free random towns' and extra gold mines, which adds lots of economic power to players. I think this one is actually much closer to deadly environment than other templates, playing 4P-team as 2 player map might also be a bit in that direction. By default deadly environment has starting towns with fortress already build, if you want this on ARMG you have to invoke the script setting.

For example if you were to play 2P-epic with only little resources and very strong monsters, you start with only tavern, one town, no gold mines, 2nd town further away, better guarded.

Quote:
but also having an option to buy the maps for all the map for just 4K gold was giving too much info for the blue player,


wait, did I add cartographers to jebus template?, i can't remember, but if i did, probably because they were in heroes 3.
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bulya
bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 06, 2019 02:35 PM

Quote:
wait, did I add cartographers to jebus template?, i can't remember, but if i did, probably because they were in heroes 3.


Seems like you did, we have the original version of the map to confirm it.
Perhaps this is another fix that can go into RC12c.
Even if the cartographers stay, the price must be way higher then 4K gold.

Even 15K gold can be too little there I think. Its a 25K gold or even more for so much intel about where the better goodies are in the middle area of the map, as well as how well is the opponent doing. If it stays it should be so that it is affordable only once one gets to creep part of the middle area.
Another way to go is just removing them from the template, or making it so that they can be found only in the middle area.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 06, 2019 02:36 PM

Quote:
wait, did I add cartographers to jebus template?, i can't remember, but if i did, probably because they were in heroes 3.


yeah you did, its quiete the overpowered adventure site with a map only costing 4k


In generaly i dont think less money will be what helps the weaker heroes. If anything its the other way around, because the less army i have, the more i rely on early game skills.
We played the Epic template a good bit aswell (there is plenty others we didnt play yet though), you certainly still dont want a runemage/reaver/assasin or the likes as your main hero. The heroes that were strong are still roughly the same.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 06, 2019 02:49 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:50, 06 Nov 2019.

well in my experience, but maybe I'm playing it wrong, I end up preferring gold over exp chests to build up the town from the ground and once I finally get there, I seem to further double down on money to get a quick tier 6 building as a guaranteed boost to my creeping instead of trying to get a few extra levels hoping to get a killer perk. Because the pace of the game is slowed I can then catch up the experience by hitting the more grown battle sites with the tier 6. I don't think I would play this way on Jebus tho.

@Cartographers:

I personally hate them, but I think I wanted to be as accurate as possible. There is a weird bug in script engine, cartographer is one of the only not recognized IDs so its functionality cannot be rewritten. I think I better remove them then.
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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 06, 2019 03:01 PM
Edited by frogo at 15:33, 06 Nov 2019.

If i prefer exp or gold depends on what hero i play and creep strength mostly. Magic heroes tend more towards exp, might more towards gold (atleast after stun + tent).
Often times you need some key perks for good creeping, so you prefer exp in the early game, even more so if creeps are strong. In late game or when creeps are weak, gold is superior (unless the map is super so rich the extra gold has no real effect anymore of course. Even then you should maybe ask yourself if the exp from a chest is worth the movement points of picking it up).
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bulya
bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 06, 2019 05:39 PM

Well, with the way I play (and I think Frogo as well), the early game is all about getting a few key perks by level 8-12, so that creeping becomes way easier.
As Frogo said, for many might heroes its about stun and tent, for a hero like Sheltem its about flaming arrows and tripple Balista (with his starting skills he can get there easily).

I treat getting those perks early enough as a skill of itself. As long as the hero is leveled up properly he can get there early enough, but making one mistake or two small mistakes and it takes way longer. For some heroes its a bit longer simply due to the skills they start with, Ranger are a good example, and for some its straightforward (Sheltem for example).

On an ARMG map, waiting for T6 creatures to make creeping easy is waiting 12 days at least, and making sure there is enough money. I can try such an approach on a poor ARMG map, but choosing such a approach has a lot of disadvantages. May be its the way to go in Heroes 3, as hero level ups help way less there. But in H5.5 it can be done in many other ways. 12 relatively passive days while the opponent levels up his hero and creeps his part of the map means he will be leveled up more (not due to chests, but because he was able to take way more fights), have more artifacts. He will capture his mines earlier, and break to the middle earlier, while taking most of the resources on his side of the map.
To catch up I will have to skip a lot on my side, be way lower on level ups, and miss artifacts. May be a skill that isn't that helpful early on can be skipped this way, but it doesn't compensate for the lack of stats. And while it may seem that I will have the better army, considering he picked way more stuff then me on the map may even mean that he has the better army rather then the worse one.

May be I should try taking such an approach, and checking out how will it go. But it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

Even if the Jebus template is a bit special, we played on the epic template as well, and I could do it with the way I play on the Jebus template or Deadly Environment (the pace is different, but the route is the same). Rely mainly on T1, T2, and T3 creatures for creeping while getting the key perks, and when creeping becomes easy, I don't really need the high tier creatures for creeping, so I don't really have to wait for the reinforcements even if I have them. Building the dwellings is important so that I have a stronger army later on, but being fast on the map by means of capturing the sites, artifacts and resources is way more important. Eventually a secondary hero will bring those reinforcements, but I might actually save them for the end game fight and continue creeping with the low tier creatures, as once the key perks are there creeping can be done without the high tier creatures even if I face very strong creep (that the game engine considers impossible for me to do).

Both, might and magic can take such a route. And its quite balanced between the two, because while magic might have less army as they need more experience to get to that comfort zone, the tweak of the 2.5% per attack or defense stat instead of 5% makes the stat part not as much of an issue for them, while magic can turn such battles the other way around (I remember having a fight vs Frogo's Zehir, and he demolished all the army I had with magnetic golems and magic only, I made a lot of mistakes, but it showcased how strong can magic be if used well).

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 06, 2019 10:12 PM

Some thoughts to add:
- Cartogather -  IMO it can be completed removed or made to have another function. The issue with it is that it gives a enormous bonus that cannot be compensated enough. Having vision of the whole map is pretty much equal to cheating for me. The alternative is to make it so expensive that nobody can afford it in early/mid game which is pretty much removes it in PvP.
I only would add it from sentimental perspective because it existed in H3.

-  gold vs EXP - that is very tricky question. IMO what player will chose depends on formula of the following variables:
map monster strength, starting gold, concentration of gold chests.

a) if starting gold is high and chests are high - main hero always go for EXP because you have gold anyway. Monster strength is not relevant here.

b) if starting gold is low, and chests are low - again you go for gold either way as you need second hero + army, get that town portal ASAP so you can hire a bit of army next week. No level ups or skills will help you here because of lack of army (With the exception of Sheltem may be).
Monster strength does not matter much as if it is low - you will get them with hired units anyway, if it is high skills wont help you.

c) low gold, high chests - you can split that however you like depending on monster strength and the ability to build at least 5 or 6 days a week.

d) high gold, low chests - Go for XP to help snowball with income and mines from PvE

Also have in mind that literally everyone in this community (including me) suffers from the Heroes 3 paranoia where you need to fight with as small amount of troops as possible because, more troops means usually more casualties which is not the case in MMH55.

So very often the choices that should be considered from chests are not 2 but 3:
- XP for hero
- gold for building tech and economy
- gold for hiring units

That was my approach (XP on the main on a few places, the rest is gold + hire and economy buildings) with the gatekeeper build against Byula but I will elaborate on this when we fight and get the video in youtube with some comments.
Having in mind that Byula has quite some experience on this exact map, using that exact build, against other players and give us a starting point to consider viable/not viable strategies.

So getting back to hero balance - some heroes actually can do good by simply buying more army instead of teching or getting XP that is why I dont want to jump in conclusions at the moment and focus on the caveats that are most visible which are:
- Chain + stunning strike
- War machines too good on closely packed maps (not ARMG usually). Here we can benefit from Marko and some hex magic we are cooking but when we have something concrete to conversate on, I will share it.
- Reavers are (considered?) weaker because both their primary skill (dark) and their specializations (except poison master) does not have impact early game at all (except Undertaker but nothing huge there)
Second, out of 6 specializations (Mindreaver, Souldrinker/Weakness reduces defense/, Lost Spirit/+ghosts/, Poison Master,  Undertaker/+skeletons/, Lich King/+Liches/) 3 of them (50%) are unit gain ones which are not popular in current meta BUT they are not weak at all.
. Than add to this Mindreaver which is useless and Souldrinker which is quite meta spec by itself and you have 5 out of 6 heroes that will never be picked by novice and medium skilled players. I really would like to leave Reavers like they are for now.
I will definitely play them in upcoming matches just to try to compare to default strategies and see what they can offer.

I so much wish I had more time to play... xD.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 06, 2019 11:07 PM

@dred

agreed mostly
I think Reavers are difficult to balance as long as we keep the class system as it is and in general i like how classes are designed.


Quote:
War machines too good on closely packed maps (not ARMG usually)


Here i have to disagree strongly.
ARMG is basically the map where WM heroes are the most OP.
They result in the shortest games.
Things like "creeping with t6" like magno suggested is basically impossible. By the time you could possibly build the t6 dwelling (day 12), you should alreaddy be focusing on the dragon utopia and the final fight. T6 can only quickly be chained to your main hero to be aviable for the final fight, they come to late for creeping.
Even though Jebus template is the only 1v1 Template working on large, these games end super quickly. Final fight is generally at a time where WM isnt only strong for creeping, but also a super strong tool for the final fight.
I think this probably only gets worse with smaller maps or maps with less ressources.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 06, 2019 11:53 PM

There are 2 things that are not clear to me.

Day 12 Dragon Utopia? Say what? Last time I did visit dragon Utopia it was guarded by some 10+ phoenix and Fortress lava dragons.

Did Magno changed anything in special sites strength for early game?

Also that Jebus map :
-  is kind of small, so it does not matter if ARMG or not
-  and game settings have very high free chest count so getting that XP boosts War M. starting heroes significantly. After all I managed to get 3 and convert 3 inferno castles on week 1 , and I used gatekeeper with no War Machines.The whole idea was to plan logistics properly.

My only concern with Balista is that the benefit it grants is easy to gain, stack and on top of that is long lasting because it gives you the ability to cheat on spending gold for units because Balista damage compensate for that.

What we were thinking with Marko is make Balista shots finite amount that replenishes every day, but it is a raw idea for the moment.

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