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Salamandre
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posted June 16, 2016 04:07 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
I don't think it is the only or even the primary reason however and should not be the only focal point. The fact that he had access to fully automatic weaponry in the first place should.
What you say is irrational. It doesn't matter what the body count is for a particular gun, it isn't a reason to ban it. So the AR-15 is banned and they instead shoot up schools with a shotgun, then what? You ban shotguns and they shoot up schools with a bag full of pistols and ammo, then what? You ban pistols and then they take a machete into a school, then what? The ban on certain high power guns in the 90s didn't even reduce shootings, it only switched the types of weapons being used.
A gun-ban supporter would follow that line of logic and end up with no reduction in killings but only a reduction in the ability for law-abiding citizens to deter crime. A wiser person would try to tackle the reasons why people commit violent crime; broken homes, single parents (usually mothers), violent ideologies like Islam, poverty, unemployment. When these factors don't exist, there is low crime irrespective of gun ownership. When those factors do exist, there is high crime, irrespective of gun control.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 16, 2016 04:11 PM |
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You may have noticed that I wrote "if paranoia against muslims IN GENERAL is increasing". THAT is what I say.
Incidentally, just because there is supposedly Christian organisation called Army of God that bombs "abortion clinics" (as if they were, like, slaughterhouses", no one is claiming that Christians are terrorists.
Which means, just because the terrorists are MALE - are you going to accuse all men of being terrorists (or rapers, for that matter)?
The simple fact is, that there ARE countries in this worels which have an extremely high income based on oil, but that otherwise are living in the 19th century, have no law in our sense, don't know civil rights and where women are oppressed. It doesn't matter much when it's a piss-poor country like, say, Bukina Faso, because there are no people there who billions of excess dollars to fund their personal vendettas with, but in the Near East it's different.
No one even KNOWS how much money the family of the Saudi king has, not to mention other "sheiks" with private oil companies.
I would also kike to remind you, that you don't need to be a muslim to act against gays. The whole ex-Eastern Block countries including Russia are anti-gay, and everone else had laws against them, because God wanted to have them killed with the jews as well as Allah.
Western democracies got secularity (always more), but the Islamic state are behind here, while those people have the means of the 21st century at their disposal and the money to do real damage.
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Salamandre
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posted June 16, 2016 04:20 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Which means, just because the terrorists are MALE - are you going to accuse all men of being terrorists (or rapers, for that matter)?
The fact is: you, or anyone else, can NOT affirm which muslim is moderate and which is radical. There is a doctrine in Islam, Taqiya, which authorizes any muslim to lie if he is in hostile environment.
The killers in Paris were born in Belgium, the killers in Bruxelles too, the killers at Carlie Hebdo were born in France, the killer in Orlando was born in US, and so on. Those were labeled as moderate muslims and had no warrants on their head.
Let me put it simple: anyone who supports and advocates Islam intrusion and conflicts with european/US values and style of life, supports and deserves any havoc which comes from. He is as much a murderer as the ones materially doing those murders.
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Elodin
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posted June 16, 2016 05:02 PM |
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There are certainly state sponsors of terror. Iran & Islamic State both sponsor Islamic terror. Reports are ISIS has sent jihadists to Brussels&France for attacks to be carried out soon. The CIA director this morning said ISIS is growing in strength and intensity of terrorist attacks will increase.
The Orlando shooter during his attack made posts on his 5 different Facebook accounts and made 14 or so calls to various need organizations saying his attack was for ISIS and more attacks are soon to be carried out in the US.
This morning a British politician was stabbed & shot and is critical condition. The report has not identified the attacker so I do not know if that is a terror attack or not.
The war on Western civilization will continue and political correctness can only harm us. To mitigate mass shooting situations all the good guys should be armed. Shootings can't be eliminated no matter what motivated them. But they can be mitigated.
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OldLich
Hired Hero
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posted June 16, 2016 05:03 PM |
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Edited by OldLich at 17:04, 16 Jun 2016.
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"Cough, calming down tensions over seas, Cough" (..For the last 25 years)
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 16, 2016 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 18:21, 16 Jun 2016.
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I like the dungeon and dragon views on morality. There's the Good-evil axis, and the lawful-chaos axis. 9 possible alignment. It fits better than many real life ways to view things. As a true neutral person with good tendencies myself, I always find it odd when reading/hearing other people's opinion and they tend to think it's ok to do an evil act as long as it's sponsored by the law/government.
Even if it is the same act, under the same circumstances, if it's not done by a law official, it's not ok then.
In dungeon and dragon, they call it Lawful Evil. They don't consider Evil or Good just because its done by the law or not. They consider it Lawful or Chaotic. It does not change the evil or the good aspect of it, most humans in real life can't even understand that. Its funny, isn't it.
What if a gnome warrior kills an evil drow with a crossbow, but it turns out that it was one of these 5 % chance, it was a good drow of Ellistraee. He just wanted to protect his gnome village. Will his alignment shift to evil? If a soldier kills a Muslim, but it turns out it wasn't a terrorist, will his alignment turn evil too? Does obeying orders make you impervious to alignment changes, to your soul?
... lol.
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OldLich
Hired Hero
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posted June 16, 2016 06:21 PM |
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The government is a robot.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 16, 2016 06:24 PM |
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JJ said:
Which means, if there is a war, it can only be led with the same means the attackers use: you need to find out WHO EXACTLY is giving money to the people who organize things like Al Quaida and IS, and then you have to kill these people via black ops - covertly, and the same way you would deal with drug cartel leaders in Mexico, Bolivia, Peru or elsewhere.
Well, that won't happen because in many cases it is the US itself(or other Western countries) that directly fund radical Islamic groups, put aside the weapon dealers who are part of their untouchable ultra-rich. I'm too tired to share same articles with proper documents that pinpoint this. It's a "little" fact almost every American is so wishful to forget in such debates, though.
Quote:
The fact is: you, or anyone else, can NOT affirm which muslim is moderate and which is radical. There is a doctrine in Islam, Taqiya, which authorizes any muslim to lie if he is in hostile environment.
The killers in Paris were born in Belgium, the killers in Bruxelles too, the killers at Carlie Hebdo were born in France, the killer in Orlando was born in US, and so on. Those were labeled as moderate muslims and had no warrants on their head.The fact is: you, or anyone else, can NOT affirm which muslim is moderate and which is radical. There is a doctrine in Islam, Taqiya, which authorizes any muslim to lie if he is in hostile environment.
Taqiya is not the actual problem. Most people, even if they have radically conservative views, don't turn reactionary against things that don't directly affect their life, such as gay rights or people with different life-style. They just go with the flow and obey the law (Just like Elodin does about the abortion clinics.) What radicalizes people to a point of directly going violent is priorly the political context here, not the theological. West had the same cultural differences, enough immigrants and the same Quran back in the 50's too, but nobody committed such acts.
And in any case, not just radical Islam, you can not predetermine a mass murderer will turn into a mass murderer. He can even be purely assimilated, non-religious but still politically motivated with a nationalistic perspective. The solution must go through the Middle East somehow, extreme security will only result in totalitarian states and social polarization.
@Elodin
There are some sites claiming Iran is supporting ISIS but they are mostly not reliable and outnumbered. It doesn't make sense anyway: Ideologically, the animosity of ISIS to other communions of Islam is just as strict as it is against Western culture. Iran is Shiite, to ISIS members, they are like the Protestants from a Catholic's eyes during the 30-year Wars, worst kind of heretic who degenerate Islam from within. Iran is on the Russia/Assad side of this conflict.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted June 16, 2016 11:26 PM |
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artu said:
Taqiya is not the actual problem.
Naïve nonsense. Would lying and deception be a problem when it is used to rid Allah-land from Atheists? You better hope Turkey stays on track or I think your attitude will be changed for you.
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(Just like Elodin does about the abortion clinics.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(United_States)
Holding-up this tiny group as comparable to this discussion about the Global situation we have now have is getting very old.
What needs to happen today is that Atheists, Jews and all people of reason need to join & stop fighting each other and understand that today, now, at this time, what is happening around the world now is clearly a political plan of destroying Western (Secular) Governments.
Considering what the West had done in the Middle-East and the results for over a century, this is not at all surprising. However, the idea that the West can somehow make amends for what was done by bringing masses of unknown people into your own home from a country (that you're supposedly at war with)and "buy them off" is insane and will prove so.
The best solution to all this that I've heard is "to get folks to read the documents they claim to know and follow". The problem with that is that a great many either cannot read or would not try if they could because they have leaders that are actually maintaining a form of political marital law and to step outside them is death as evidenced by; according to some statistics for every outsider killed in the Middle-East, two insiders have been. Jihad is a struggle against everyone who does not step in line. Peace only comes with this Religion when every dissenter has been eliminated.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 16, 2016 11:58 PM |
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Edited by artu at 00:12, 17 Jun 2016.
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You can be quite sure, you're not in a position to teach about naivety, Markkur. Especially, when it comes to social aspects of Islam and it's relationship with non-believers.
I'm not talking about bringing in millions of people and "buying them off." You already have millions of Muslim citizens and some of them are devoted believers. What are you going to do, prepare a questionnaire and deport the ones with the wrong answers? And if Taqiya is the actual problem, how is even that going to work, they may be lying after all, so, are you going to deport people based on their ethnic background or put them in concentration camps like they did to citizens of Japanese origin during WW2? It's not the 1940's anymore. So, what is the solution to this?
Quote:
The fact is: you, or anyone else, can NOT affirm which muslim is moderate and which is radical. There is a doctrine in Islam, Taqiya, which authorizes any muslim to lie if he is in hostile environment.
The killers in Paris were born in Belgium, the killers in Bruxelles too, the killers at Carlie Hebdo were born in France, the killer in Orlando was born in US, and so on. Those were labeled as moderate muslims and had no warrants on their head.
Unless you have some ethnic cleansing on your mind, the actual solution involves Middle-East, since 20th century history clearly shows us that, with or without the concept of Taqiya, Muslim immigrants are not destructive against their hosts when there is no political conflict, just because of theological doctrine, as a rule. The reason these attacks are escalating is not theology or Takiya but the war in the Middle-East.
And I don't see how linking Army of God and saying they are insignificant compared to Islamic terror organizations contradicts with this point of mine, because it actually supports it. Without the war in the Middle-East, a typical conservative Muslim's attitude to a gay bar would be similar to Elodin's attitude towards abortion clinics, he may wish they were outlawed but he wouldn't start blowing them up. There can be exceptions like the abortion clinic bombers but those exceptions would then be similarly less frequent.
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Salamandre
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posted June 17, 2016 01:04 AM |
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artu said:
since 20th century history clearly shows us that, with or without the concept of Taqiya, Muslim immigrants are not destructive against their hosts when there is no political conflict,
WHAT?? artu, you need to change ophthalmologist, if you can't see the s***hole Europe became since muslims mass immigrated in.
War in middle east concerns people from ... middle east. People from middle east may be more aggressive if they immigrate in Europe and their country is still bombed by the host country, but artu... muslims from Alger, Maroc, Pakistan, Turkey, etc, are pissing us on a daily base, they are the central population of our prisons (70% in every European country) and there is NO conflict between us and them.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2016 01:27 AM |
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First of all, the mass immigration, the scale of that immigration I mean, which is your basic concern, is because of the conflict in the Middle East and the tides it creates. And it determines the ideology of the radicals. This or that country may not be invaded directly but devoted Muslims put their religious identity before their national identity. Just look at Cold War Era, you'll still have enough number of immigrants on your hands, were there radical Islamists bombing or mass-shooting here and there in the West? Non-ideological crimes are something else, they have a completely different sociological base. Notice for example, how Trump is not only talking against Muslim immigration but also Mexican. That's another matter.
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Salamandre
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posted June 17, 2016 01:42 AM |
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No. Until now we had mass immigration from former France colonies, then each country had its dose. I think 100 000/year can be called mass. This immigration has nothing to do with middle east and brought the havoc we know in all Europe. Now, recently we are confronted at uber mass immigration, which means several millions at once, and this is from those countries we are at war with.
I am afraid it makes not much sense to discuss, if you are not living in Europe and can directly observe most of people overall exceeded by the criminality and the unrest muslim immigration plunged this continent. As all medias will ignore this and hide it the most of time.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2016 02:09 AM |
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Sal, it's really a very simple question you're dodging. If we were in the 60's, 70's or 80's, would immigration complaints that you mention by the French that don't appear on the media be the same? Would they be talking about Taqiya or verses from the Quran etc? Or would it be about burglary, unemployed people, poverty, street gangs etc? I don't assume you also relate such things to ideology. So basically, I don't understand what you object to here, you bring up Taqiya, I say what creates radical Islam is political rather than theological. It's not that Islam is great and so peaceful, it's just that it's not the dominant factor here. Then, you switch to ordinary crimes which has nothing to do with Taqiya and claim media doesn't cover it.
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Salamandre
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posted June 17, 2016 03:45 AM |
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artu said:
Sal, it's really a very simple question you're dodging. If we were in the 60's, 70's or 80's, would immigration complaints that you mention by the French that don't appear on the media be the same?
Absolutely. The right wing party was born 40 years ago and already warned about what is happening today, every detail.
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markkur
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posted June 17, 2016 05:28 AM |
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artu said:
You can be quite sure, you're not in a position to teach about naivety, Markkur. Especially, when it comes to social aspects of Islam and it's relationship with non-believers.
Oh I understand now, its Turkey today that is leading the way for international relations. However, the truth is, its the USA that has far out distanced Turkey as a melting pot of Race and Culture in any thing like recent times. However, now Europe is on a crash course of a different sort.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 05:32 AM |
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From what my news station says, Turkey's president is a national embarrassment.
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markkur
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posted June 17, 2016 05:51 AM |
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Kayna said:
From what my news station says, Turkey's president is a national embarrassment.
Well if he is then it is people like Artu and Muslim's with western thinking that will have to do something about that.
One of the things that ticked me off is that the West kept "cherry-picking" some of the best minds from those regions and/or those folks leave a crumbling country instead of rebuilding it. But, then it became very clear to me - no one can lead others, except the radicals when all are under Sword-Islam.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 05:55 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 05:56, 17 Jun 2016.
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I'm not sure exactly. Apparently, Turkey's president currently lives in one heck of a palace-house, he sends lawyers to anyone joking about him, even those not in his country! And puts in jail anyone insulting him too, stuff like that. I dunno, ask Artu, I'm sure he got more details.
Or maybe he'll keep quiet as to not end up in prison lol...
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Salamandre
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posted June 17, 2016 05:59 AM |
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Insulting or threatening a president is punished by law in most constitutions. But only Turkey applies it.
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