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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 17, 2016 06:18 AM |
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Salamandre said:
kiryu133 said:
I don't think it is the only or even the primary reason however and should not be the only focal point. The fact that he had access to fully automatic weaponry in the first place should.
What you say is irrational. It doesn't matter what the body count is for a particular gun, it isn't a reason to ban it. So the AR-15 is banned and they instead shoot up schools with a shotgun, then what? You ban shotguns and they shoot up schools with a bag full of pistols and ammo, then what? You ban pistols and then they take a machete into a school, then what? The ban on certain high power guns in the 90s didn't even reduce shootings, it only switched the types of weapons being used.
A gun-ban supporter would follow that line of logic and end up with no reduction in killings but only a reduction in the ability for law-abiding citizens to deter crime. A wiser person would try to tackle the reasons why people commit violent crime; broken homes, single parents (usually mothers), violent ideologies like Islam, poverty, unemployment. When these factors don't exist, there is low crime irrespective of gun ownership. When those factors do exist, there is high crime, irrespective of gun control.
Irresponsible & vain gun laws are only a peripheral reason for violence, and don't really address causation, but if I can use a parallel: a civilian isn't allowed to drive a tank down the road, or even a tractor trailer without a special license, and that is because it is common sense to the population that it is specialized equipment and it is irresponsible (read: unethical) to let anybody use it. Banning shotguns or hunting rifles might be silly, especially in countries like Canada, Russia, the US, Australia, etc., simply because there is a large, renewable harvest of wild game and guns still serve a very practical function that is beneficial for families and is also tied in with a very positive & healthy form of recreation, especially for youth.
Besides, it would be absolutely impossible for the gunmen to inflict remotely as much death & damage as he did with a shotgun or a bolt action rifle. This is basic martial knowledge.
Sure, you can't mark down with crystal clarity what specific limits you're going to set: whether you're going to restrict something to certain use or prohibit it for the general population altogether, but except for rare exception, nobody argues the idea of having licenses in some cases and prohibitions in other cases. Firearms simply have claimed a realm outside of this pragmatism in the US since the 1970s and it is haram in many circles to challenge this.
Another reason to highlight reforming irresponsible gun policy is that factors of causation, like the ones you mentioned, are long & arduous processes that are impossible to change overnight, but effective legislation can take effect immediately. For all of its wealth & brainpower & infrastructure, the US treats poor people like ****, and legislation can help change that too, but it's really not fair to say, "Well, gun laws aren't the #1 problem". That doesn't mean they won't help.
And there has never been a point when semi-automatic firearms were banned in the US, although gun laws were far more strict in the 1800s before such a thing existed. Specific cities, like D.C., have attempted this, and they obviously didn't work because they're surrounded by an ocean of people on all 4 sides that are allowed to carry them and freely travel anywhere. It's a borderline straw man to even bring it up. That was bold but wishful thinking to believe that would ever work. It needs the power of the federal government to make it effective, since it would blanket the country, and it needs to force the states into submission, and then you need patience because it's going to be a rocky road (not the chocolate, almond & marshmallow kind) for the first several years while the inevitable backlash sets in, including a temporary spike in homicide that will put on pressure to undo the ban.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 17, 2016 07:05 AM |
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<imo> Let the common people have guns but nothing meant for the Battlefield.
People today claim them as a right to protect the nation but who the hell would stand a chance against a modern army if that modern army like the Elite U.S. forces became tools for slave-masters?
<imo> Today's topics are almost always at extremes. Like with gun ownership...as in all guns or no guns. Why exactly does my next door neighbor need a bazooka to hunt? That's like; "I use dynamite for fishing".
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2016 10:00 AM |
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Salamandre said:
artu said:
Sal, it's really a very simple question you're dodging. If we were in the 60's, 70's or 80's, would immigration complaints that you mention by the French that don't appear on the media be the same?
Absolutely. The right wing party was born 40 years ago and already warned about what is happening today, every detail.
So, French Right Wing party predicted Islamic terrorism was going to rise 40 years ago? I'd really like to see the actual source to that because my guess is you are interpreting regular right-wing nationalism as prophecy.
markkur said:
artu said:
You can be quite sure, you're not in a position to teach about naivety, Markkur. Especially, when it comes to social aspects of Islam and it's relationship with non-believers.
Oh I understand now, its Turkey today that is leading the way for international relations. However, the truth is, its the USA that has far out distanced Turkey as a melting pot of Race and Culture in any thing like recent times. However, now Europe is on a crash course of a different sort.
That has got to be the least probable meaning of my sentence in the whole universe. No, I meant, as an atheist living in a country bordering Iraq and Syria, with a population dominantly Muslim and governed by a conservative Muslim party for the last 15 years (and with authoritarian tendencies for the last 5 to 6 years), I don't need to learn that Islam is no angel from you, also hinting that if one of us can sometimes be naive, that one is certainly not me.
Kayna said:
I'm not sure exactly. Apparently, Turkey's president currently lives in one heck of a palace-house, he sends lawyers to anyone joking about him, even those not in his country! And puts in jail anyone insulting him too, stuff like that. I dunno, ask Artu, I'm sure he got more details.
Or maybe he'll keep quiet as to not end up in prison lol...
Well, they wont bother with small fish like me writing in a foreign site, so I think I'm safe. 
Erdogan is a power-crazed authoritarian figure, he actually does have around 50 percent of the votes and since the opposition is fractured between Kurds, Seculars/Modernists and Far-Right Nationalists, his party's governing position is legitimate. The trouble is, Erdogan's interpretation of the above is, it means he can suppress any voice that disturbs him whether it's the independent courts or the press or the universities or some 13 year old who made some comment on Facebook! He got an almost delusional voter base who believes any conspiracy he comes up with, and as a perfect demagogue and impressive speech giver, he presents all of these to them as "evil forces trying to prevent Turkey from rising up by slandering its leader of faith, who's on a mission from God for days of glory."
It's not that there isn't any press that speaks hard against him, but not through mainstream media, then he gets them fired because all big and widespread media is owned by big business men who must keep good relations with the government. If they don't, their business else where goes down or you have state inspectors visiting your paper, giving you some billion Turkish Lira penalty because of some technicality.
The courts and most of the universities are under the control of wing men that his government appoints and they also clean out people who are too vocal about their concerns with the government or Islam in general. Of course, they still need a legitimate excuse and some people manage to resist but we are in a very oppressive period by modern democratic standards.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 17, 2016 10:20 AM |
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artu said:
Well, they wont bother with small fish like me yet, writing in a foreign site, so I think I'm safe, for now.
Fixed that for your Artu, you know the saying: Start one loose end and soon the entire yarn is gone.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 17, 2016 10:26 AM |
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artu learns FN history
video from 1989
1:40: "In the close future, poor people from north Africa will invade the rich Europe, and this invasion will be nor friendly, nor pacific."
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted June 17, 2016 10:55 AM |
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Salamandre said:
1:40: "In the close future, poor people from north Africa will invade the rich Europe, and this invasion will be nor friendly, nor pacific."
nothing new, happens every few generations...
humanity has been expanding from north africa and the mediterranean for 60+ thousand years.
this is why controlling the predominant religious/economic doctrine of the region is so heavily contested.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 11:20 AM |
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Just food for thought:
List of terrorist incidents in Great Britain
List of islamist terror attacks worldwide
Correlation here is - if you look at the amounbt of islamist terror attacks in the UK, you don't find many, do you?
Then - if you take a look at the worldwide islamist attacks and then at the time table prior to 9/11, you'll see 1) there are some; and 2) they are basically all against Israel, one way or another.
Next you may notice, that a sizable part of the terror attacks after 2001 have been taking place in and around Israel, including India and Pakistan and Africa. You may also notice a decline starting 2005, until at the end of the decade it starts again, heating up to a shocking amount of incidents starting in 2014 and increasing.
There hasn't much changed with regard to the locations of the bombings, though.
Here is another list: Islam in the United Kingdom. Note that the 2011 census show a muslim percentage of 4.83%
For the US this can only be estimated to a current roundavout 3 millions or 1 % of the population, a figure that was supassed in the 1981 census of the UK.
In France estimations are more difficult and vary widely. The CIA estimates between 5 and 10 % of Franves 66 millions are muslims.
Compare that with the List of terror attacks in France. Look at France's history...
Lastly, in Germany, die to the masses of Turkish immigrants, Islam is a factor since the 1970s. Currently , an estimated 5.4% of the population are muslims, but less than half of those are German citizens (!).
Now compare that with Terrorism in Germany.
I'll leav e the conclusions to you.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2016 11:30 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Lastly, in Germany, die to the masses of Turkish immigrants,
An interesting lapsus..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 11:39 AM |
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You know, as a leftie, I or U - same diff, right? 
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted June 17, 2016 11:52 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Warmonger said:
As someone pointed out, we would have exactly same massacres in Poland if far-right guys got guns and priests blessing.
In Paris, they killed twice more, and we can't buy guns. So, no.
You are very wrong here. That was one-time incident. In USA more people get shot every day. Not shot by terrorists at all.
Quote:
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms
Another one:
Quote:
How the US compares: The number of gun murders per capita in the US in 2012 - the most recent year for comparable statistics - was nearly 30 times that in the UK, at 2.9 per 100,000 compared with just 0.1.
Of all the murders in the US in 2012, 60% were by firearm compared with 31% in Canada, 18.2% in Australia, and just 10% in the UK.
I'm sorry, but USA citizens killed more of themselves on their own over years than any terrorists could ever achieve.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 17, 2016 01:00 PM |
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Warmonger said:
I'm sorry, but USA citizens killed more of themselves on their own over years than any terrorists could ever achieve.
A glorious example of how people completely forget that is over a span of 320 million people and time...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 17, 2016 01:04 PM |
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@Sal
I don't think the issue is Islam, I think the issue is awful foreign policies from USA/NATO. I see terrorism as a consequence of our governments own actions. Then of course immigration is dangerous when you open borders to the very people you've been bombing, not very clever, is it?
Not even mentioning the general hypocrisy of France's politicians, like Michel Onfray denounces rightly: "When we want money for our football team, we are friends with Qatar, or when we are looking for a buyer for our beautiful buildings in Paris, we’re friends again. If we’re looking for a person to give him the Legion of Honour order, we are friends with Saudi Arabia. Though we know for sure that these three countries [including Turkey] cooperate with ISIS."
(french video).
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 17, 2016 01:09 PM |
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Galaad said:
I don't think the issue is Islam, I think the issue is awful foreign policies from USA/NATO. I see terrorism as a consequence of our governments own actions.
Well ask yourself if it would have been better politics should say China, Russia or Brazil have the grand influence on it? I am not saying it would have been better or worse, but that international politics are very difficult.
Galaad said:
Then of course immigration is dangerous when you open borders to the very people you've been bombing, not very clever, is it?
Mixing cultures and people without their full consent is too, but you get +1 from me here Galaad.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 17, 2016 01:16 PM |
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I never hided my aversion for the imperialistic politic US and its puppets (EU) does, then the consequences. But we have a democratic issue in Europe, the only politicians which promise to stop bombing and foreign interference are labeled as nazi, so we have to deal with same puppets, again and again.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 17, 2016 01:28 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
international politics are very difficult.
Indeed they are, even more when politicians have no global long-term strategy and act selfish.
Salamandre said:
But we have a democratic issue in Europe, the only politicians which promise to stop bombing and foreign interference are labeled as nazi, so we have to deal with same puppets, again and again.
C'est l'hôpital qui se fout de la charité, France's socialist party is acting way more nazi than FN ever would, pretty insane.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 17, 2016 01:38 PM |
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Galaad said:
C'est l'hôpital qui se fout de la charité, France's socialist party is acting way more nazi than FN ever would, pretty insane.
Imagine if it regarded communism instead, then I would be way more scared.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 03:44 PM |
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artu said:
Well, they wont bother with small fish like me writing in a foreign site, so I think I'm safe.
Maybe you're safe because this isn't social media like facebook, with your actual name and face next to your opinion. Ha.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2016 04:00 PM |
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That doesn't matter, they could track down your ip, if they were to bother unless you mask it all the time and I don't.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 17, 2016 10:47 PM |
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Does anyone here besides Sal <L> know how the Mafia came to the US? Sicily. Some of my best friends in High School were Italian and I heard all about these sorts from the mother-country of Italy. Back then, nearly all Italians in the U.S. were hard-working immigrants however, there were enough that were not about that work-bit and created some organizations that had to be fought for a hell of a long time. However, the Mafia and other gangs, most notably the brief career of Bugs Moran were about greed and capitalizing on crime.
(Fun Fact about guns etc. - Why were Bonnie & Clyde so successful for a time? BAR WW1 rifles and the V8 motor. The police had neither)
Flash forward to now. America already has too many unemployed and needy. (Remember another post I made about TECH versus Humans?) We have companies world-wide taking away jobs, even "the boring stand on the production line type of work". Yet who here at HC is upset about that weekly freaking fact that is and will be a growing blight on society? Poor people are poor people and are not going to be Cosmic-Scientists en masse.
Now add in huge/massive debt from this hijacked government pandering to big business and WAR. Multinational companies that have allegiance to no nation and therefore can hoard money while evading taxation. Then toss in a Free-Market that is not a free-market.
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We have peaceful Muslims living here BUT there are groups that are all about being Muslim and not about becoming American first. This is happening across the ethic board now, with Mexicans being the lion-share of illegals and some are dead-set on taking back California, Texas and Arizona. Where the hell is the outrage about that?
Now add in the illegal wars in the Middle-East where hopeless, desperate people are now following or forced to follow Sword-Islam.
The US has NOT been controlling immigration. So we get the "nice" Muslims and the Sword Muslims that are here for a purpose.
Creating ghettos is not going to integrate anyone from another nation. Handing the freebies is not going to do it either. All that is doing is further breaking an already broken economy that has been high-jacked by the 1% that are not about to blend with what is now happening here in the U.S. You've heard of "Gated-communities"? How about gated islands and nations in the future where all the riff-raft is prohibited and left to Chaos?
From what I see and read here in the States, the American government is hated now nearly world-wide and so is White-America as if all Whites, and no other races have endorsed what the hell has happened. The fact is the voting-masses are out of that picture following shadow election-shows put on by a corrupt high-jacked election process.
What kind of sensible election results can happen when the idea is to bring in outsiders, pay their way and give them a vote that is equal to a Vote from a person that came here worked like everyone else and integrated...for what? A reformed Government...NO. An even larger Welfare-State that is already deep in the red?...YES.
Standing around doing nothing is standing around only doing something in the head. The land under those feet matters little when all land seems or becomes the same.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 11:12 PM |
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markkur said:
The US has NOT been controlling immigration. So we get the "nice" Muslims and the Sword Muslims that are here for a purpose.
It's difficult to come to the US legally, and the government has deported numerous illegal immigrants. According to this site, the government gets around 6 million visa applications a year and grants less than a million, and the majority of those are relatives of those who are already here legally. If I were just some random person who'd like to work in the US, my chances would be pretty bad.
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
