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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 18, 2016 02:29 AM |
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This is old and I doubt things are now better instead of worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV7JILRugOg
But whatever, I damn near dead so this will affect you more than me. If you choose not to believe, that's your right...but only for now.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 18, 2016 04:41 PM |
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This is a recycled argument, but having guns against criminals with guns is just upping the ante. I don't see why this is even argued when there is living proof that plenty of countries have a fraction of the homicide that the US does and the population either doesn't have guns or very seldom has guns. None of this is theorycrafting. This is real life. If the US is unwilling to act like adults and take advice from outsiders, they can at least take advice from their own older generations. Prior to the 1960s, US attitudes towards guns weren't actually very different from anywhere else. Neoconservative gun advocates fancy themselves defenders of a certain cultural heritage, when that cultural heritage only exists in their imaginations. There is no such thing as a gun heritage in the US. This gun culture is younger than my grandmother by a few decades.
I agree that gun free zones are a pointless defense, and that is because these gun free zones are places sitting in the middle of the United States where anybody is free to move about wherever they want. For any regulations to be effective it needs to actually be enforced on a federal level. But gun advocates don't address this topic for the very simple reason that they can't address this topic. They have no defense against it. Countries on this Earth at this instant in reality do it, and it works. So instead the gun lobby does the only thing they are capable of doing: they target a strawman like 'gun free zones' and they shred it to pieces and claim a meaningless victory.
And yes, except for exceptional cases of hardened, networked criminals, taking guns away will - for the most part - take guns out of the hands of murderers as well. It also makes law enforcements jobs much easier to track down the source and then cut off the source as well. Right now it's "Where did he get the firearm? I don't know, one of a thousand vendors? Who cares?" Because there are more active firearms in the US than there are human beings, it will take some time, but 98% of firearms inevitably will be sifted out, and once they become illegal, people will stop manufacturing and the ones already out there will gradually be sifted out. It's a process, not an overnight event. And by process, I mean years.
And of course, events like Orlando are what soak in all of the media attention, and are what generate conversation, but the vast majority of gun deaths are related to petty crime or spontaneous actions. It's not the occasional maw of a bear that is killing Americans so much as the steady stream of bee stings. That can disappear when the handguns do.
This shouldn't be so complicated.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted June 18, 2016 05:10 PM |
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markkur said:
Does anyone here besides Sal <L> know how the Mafia came to the US? Sicily. Some of my best friends in High School were Italian and I heard all about these sorts from the mother-country of Italy. Back then, nearly all Italians in the U.S. were hard-working immigrants however, there were enough that were not about that work-bit and created some organizations that had to be fought for a hell of a long time. However, the Mafia and other gangs, most notably the brief career of Bugs Moran were about greed and capitalizing on crime.
Well... Let's just say one of my professors once went to New York, I shan't give too many details since this man risked a lot in his life in politics.
The reason for this trip was that he went there for a political reason and was hosted by an Sicilian family, that in the beginning came from a town from the center of the island.
Funny thing was that this family practically controlled an entire block, he told us that there was some guys making noise for some days and he complained, the next day he heard no noise, after questioning the reasons his hosts said they had dealt with it.
Well, there was also the favourable treatment he was given at the airport, and the fact that during one dinner they had as a guest none other than the Italian consul.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 18, 2016 08:55 PM |
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CIA has not found any link between Orlando killer and Isis, says agency chief John Brennan.
The FBI has also determined that Mateen was not directed by or in contact with Isis before his attack at the Pulse nightclub.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 18, 2016 08:57 PM |
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Minion said:
CIA has not found any link between Orlando killer and Isis, says agency chief John Brennan.
The FBI has also determined that Mateen was not directed by or in contact with Isis before his attack at the Pulse nightclub.
And yet it is still being reported by some as "terrorism" or worse yet "an act of war", in order to promote an agenda, which is the belief that antagonizing the Muslim world or anything loosely related with the Muslim world is beneficial for the United States.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2016 09:03 PM |
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Blizzardboy:
There are many factors that affect violence, not just gun ownership, which is only one of the differences between the US and Europe. A more apples-to-apples comparison would compare US states by rates of gun ownership, and it looks like this:
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source
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Eccentric Opinion
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 18, 2016 09:08 PM |
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Which doesn't show any significant positive or negative correlation.
But all of those states have something in common: you can own & purchase a handgun and they are all porous between one another (you can travel and work and move freely). So whether you're in a state where 15% of people own a gun or 50% of people own a gun, you can acquire a weapon without any extraordinary effort and unload a clip with it.
I've already pointed out that gun control is a secondary factor in violent crime.
edit: And if you are a person with lethal intent in any of those states, your default avenue will be to get a handgun. You're not going to go to Tractor Supply and buy a machete. That would be if you didn't have any other easy options, and your ability to kill easily & efficiently is greatly diminished with a machete.
Elodin was a police officer. His department didn't issue him a machete or a pocket knife. They issued him a gun. Why did they issue him a gun? Because it's efficient at its job and they want him to be capable of taking somebody down in an instant (ideally, police shouldn't be carrying around guns by default, but that's another topic)
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted June 18, 2016 10:12 PM |
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Quote:
(ideally, police shouldn't be carrying around guns by default, but that's another topic)
This, American police are baffled that something like British police can do their jobs without being able to resort to deadly force. The Met do have fully equipped units against gangs or 'terrorists', but your average joe street cop is technically 'harmless' by American standards. And our police is by no means inferior in its job of keeping the peace than the US ones, hell I'd argue it's superior, they build relationships with communities rather than relying on their sidearms as a first and last resort (first thing any cop does is whip out his gun and wave it at a suspect, so much for guilty until proven, get strong arm of the law right off the bat).
My rough 2 cents.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 18, 2016 10:17 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor said:
(first thing any cop does is whip out his gun and wave it at a suspect
This is incorrect, not to mention illegal, but yes, minus the hyperbole, the British system of policing is much more integrated with the community and should be modeled in the US (although I will add the caveat that gun policy needs to change before you should expect police to phase out firearms into a reserve unit. There is a logical sequence that needs to be followed, and the one has to proceed the other. Right now, it's entirely unfair to ask US police to do what British police do).
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2016 01:20 AM |
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In my opinion, the US of A promotes stress, violence, problems, wars and such as often as possible to create as many jobs in any kind of enforcement to remain strong.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 19, 2016 02:45 AM |
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I cant remember the exact number but I remember reading, even in the U.S., the ratio of officers who actually had to shoot their weapons was very low. (Unless, they are from a special unit such as SWAT, etc). In general, most officers go through their entire career without pulling the trigger as far as I know. Not mentioning this cause I disagree with BB on this or anything...
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 19, 2016 02:48 AM |
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A person does not have to have to do a secret handshake with the top three ISIS officials to be acting as an agent of ISIS. Mateen was a supporter of Islamic terror in high school. He expressed support as an adult and his coworkers complained about it. He watched beheadings and other ISIS propaganda on the internet.
ISIS issued a call for jihad during Ramadan and he became a jihadist. He yelled the "Allah is the only God" battle cry as he killed. During his killings he posted on five different Facebook accounts explaining why he did it. He made calls to media expressing his totality to ISIS.
This is the easiest way for ISIS to get a jihadist into the US. Recruit a Muslim already here. However, jihadists have been caught coming across the border with smugglers recently. It is reasonable to assume some were not caught.
I am amazed how many liberals in the media deny Mateen was a terrorist, deny Islam had anything to do with it, deny any association with ISIS, and say instead Christiansdidit, Republicansdidit, gunsdidit, Trumpdidit.
No. An Islamic terrorist didit in the name of the Islamic State. It was indeed an act of war. Democrats joined in on the attack on America by seeking to use it in their ongoing effort to disarm the People.
The elite tell us guns are evil as they surround themselves with armed guards. They tell us wall are bad as they live in walled estates with alarm systems and security guards. Or in the case of POTUS, the wall around the White House is built even higher with armed Secret Service all around and on top of the WH.
If walls do not work why do The elite have walls? Why do they lock their cars and house doors. If guns don't work why do they have armed body guards?
I live in the real world. I would rather have a gun if a shooter enters the room with me. I lock my doors because walls do make a difference. When someone says he is loyal to ISIS and guns down people I have no reason to doubt the motivation. Its what ISIS does.
Attacks are increasing in number and severity and will continue to do so. Obama will not act and without the US as the top of the spear other nations won't either.
Oh well. Every generation has to learn it's own lessons. As the elite live in their walls in safety and more and more the People are terrorized eventually the lesson will be learned but the pain will be great.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 19, 2016 03:37 AM |
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I think you would go frenzy in France. This week, 2 armed (with guns) burglars broke in the house of an old man at night, they punched him and his wife, tied them and made noise asking where is the money. The son of the two, who was sleeping in the house nearby had a gun for hunt, he heard the screams, he came to rescue and in the confusion, one of burglars was shot and died.
Now the son is in jail, waiting for trial, as they found the bullet was shot in burglar's back. He could have asked to return, wtf?
Last week, there were some strikes in Paris, so people used the opportunity to attack police and kill some. One cop got out from his burning car and let them hit him.
The day after he received the highest french award, Honor medal, for his "bravery".
video, how brave! go to 3:45
You retaliate, you go in jail. Let the others humiliate you, you are an hero.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 19, 2016 04:36 AM |
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And this is nothing, recently a bunch of demonstrators got locked up for having in their possession papers stating their legal rights, a reporter got beaten up by the force and is now in a coma, more than 20 thousands jobs in hospitals are getting nuked... Not wanting to go off-topic about France but wtf does not even start to cover it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 19, 2016 11:36 AM |
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Oh, Erdogan was so eager and happy to exploit those incidents in France, "Look at them people, during the Gezi protests they lectured us about police brutality and civil rights. But now they have a riot of their own, they do exactly the same thing. This is the hypocrisy of the West."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 19, 2016 12:06 PM |
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I saw this morning an ISIS group has called for worldwide attacks on gays during Pride events.
So let your LGBT friends know to stay alert.
http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/06/16/dutch-officials-guard-new-lgbt-terror-threat/
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 19, 2016 12:16 PM |
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They couldnt get a permit here this year. I guess, because of Ramadan. But they said they'll do the pride walk without the permit anyway and now, Taksim Square is like a swarm of police force. We'll see what happens.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2016 01:48 PM |
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It was a gay on gay crime. Nothing to see here, move along.
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blizzardman
Known Hero
Gay as an Easter Basket
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posted June 19, 2016 04:01 PM |
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Elodin said:
A person does not have to have to do a secret handshake with the top three ISIS officials to be acting as an agent of ISIS.
He's not an agent of ISIS. He's not on pay or contract or even a handshake. He was not affiliated with them in anyway. He was a security guard.
ISIS is a fad for sick minds right now. It used to be Nazis, or fascists, or KKK, or any number of dozens of other less famous violent radicals.
There are multiple definitions of "Nazi". There is "Nazi" as in the Nazi state, and then there is "Nazi" as in a violent supremacists who calls himself a Nazi as a banner. A white guy in the 1940s from Idaho can be a "Nazi" but he's not an agent of the Nazi state.
There have been more attacks on US soil since 9/11 by native-born white supremacists than there have been by Muslims, yet you don't want to go to war with white supremacy (nor can you go to war with white supremacy, because you can't go to war against an abstract concept). Nor, for that matter, are any presidential candidates wanting to ban white US men from entering the US.
With the view you are touting right now, any person on the street - absolutely no matter what his or her background - could commit violence, and then vocally say 'for ISIS' and then - by your standards - it would mean that it is an act of war. You're honestly not finding any holes with this?
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 19, 2016 04:09 PM |
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Salamandre said:
You retaliate, you go in jail. Let the others humiliate you, you are an hero.
In Australia, throwing rocks at a aid personel/police can give up to 14 years in prison.
In Sweden, throwing rocks at a aid personel/police will give you nothing, the victim however will be treated to a cup off coffee and hear a "well done".
So yeah Sal, gotta love the law.
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This thread is pages long: 
