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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Inolin: New World, New Ideas
Thread: Inolin: New World, New Ideas This thread is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 · «PREV / NEXT»
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 30, 2016 10:43 AM
Edited by MattII at 18:33, 30 Jan 2016.

Kimarous said:
It's not a matter of "disagreeing with opinion." It's a matter of ignoring the work someone has put into a project and then nitpicking it, claiming there are holes where there are none. "There's nothing 'radiating life' has do to with the forest", yet the faction is set up to make that work - but it DOESN'T, ACCORDING TO YOU, because your own opinion matters more than the creator's intentions.
Reread my statement, I said "there's nothing in there specifically about the forest, quite a different thing.

Quote:
I'm SICK of everyone holding their own precious opinions and lording them over another's work, calling it "boring" and the like, and when called out for their selfishness, their only defense is "It's MY opinion and I have the right to express it"!
So you're saying the unicorn isn't boring? Its abilities are Blinding Attack and Aura of Magic Resistance, which have been used, respectively, in every single game and in H3/5. What about some new abilities for a change? Say, Aura of Curing, which would allow the unicorn, to sacrifice a turn to cure itself and its neighbours of Poison (base) and certain negative spell effects (upgraded)? this would actually fit better with the original legend, and at least in HoMM  would be an ability not previously seen.

You might also notice, than unlike others here I at least have decency to suggest alternatives, rather than just complaining. Meh, maybe I've been spending too long on alternatehistory.com, discussion over there can get rather robust at time.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 30, 2016 05:58 PM

Rakshasa92 said:
I knew you would say that about the only cool new creature the Cu Sith, where are your taste organs hiding?

You are the linupsmith with a strange fetish for Humanoids. The freaking town is full of humanoids and you want the only beast to change into a HUMANOID. That is just so wrong.

And most girls I know love Cu Sith, you must be a cat person or a male that plays being a female.

I usually doesn't reply to you because you are kinda rude, but just to clearify I didn't say it should be replaced with a humanoid. If you notice, I said "forest spirit", not "humanoid forest spirit". It doesn't have to be a humanoid, it just have to be fitting for the forest. Also do note that I said BEAST/beastman, as in I fully support a beast like a boar or a wolf in it's spot. It all comes down to taste, and I dislike the Cu Sith, it's that simple.

And in case you are wondering, I am a cat person. Like that has ever been something bad.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted January 31, 2016 01:58 PM

A boring real world wolf or boar, almost just as boring as humans.

Real nice, give me Cu Sith over all real world animals ANYDAY.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 31, 2016 02:10 PM

Rakshasa92 said:
A boring real world wolf or boar, almost just as boring as humans.

Real nice, give me Cu Sith over all real world animals ANYDAY.

Never said it had to mirror the real world 100%

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Minastir
Minastir


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 31, 2016 02:57 PM

There won't be any kind of boar in Sylvan simply because there is already a boar in Stronghold

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted January 31, 2016 03:24 PM

That is no boar, that is an Eurymanthian Boar. Something really different.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 31, 2016 04:02 PM

Rakshasa92 said:
That is no boar, that is an Eurymanthian Boar. Something really different.

Are you serious..? There is litterally boar in it's freaking name. "Eurymanthian BOAR" see..? Beside if that doesn't count as a beast I don't know what does...

Minastir said:
There won't be any kind of boar in Sylvan simply because there is already a boar in Stronghold

Sorry, forgot. Anyway, it was just an exsample.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 31, 2016 04:02 PM

Rakshasa92 said:
That is no boar, that is an Eurymanthian Boar. Something really different.

Are you serious..? There is litterally boar in it's freaking name. "Eurymanthian BOAR" see..? Beside if that doesn't count as a beast I don't know what does...

Minastir said:
There won't be any kind of boar in Sylvan simply because there is already a boar in Stronghold

Sorry, forgot. Anyway, it was just an exsample.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted January 31, 2016 04:11 PM

Mediczero said:
Rakshasa92 said:
That is no boar, that is an Eurymanthian Boar. Something really different.

Are you serious..? There is litterally boar in it's freaking name. "Eurymanthian BOAR" see..? Beside if that doesn't count as a beast I don't know what does...

Minastir said:
There won't be any kind of boar in Sylvan simply because there is already a boar in Stronghold

Sorry, forgot. Anyway, it was just an exsample.


If you say boar, I thought you meant a real world boar, as you clearly also want a real world boring vanilla wolf in the game.

Erymanthian Boars aren't animals, they are monsters, horrid monsters that only share the name with a boar, the rest is humongous.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 31, 2016 04:40 PM

Okay, to clearify, with "Boar" I meant by basis the idea of the creature (large wild pig-thing), whenever it's the normal version or the more larger and legendary kind as with the Eurymanthian Boar.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 31, 2016 06:37 PM
Edited by MattII at 19:04, 31 Jan 2016.

I was the one who mentioned those creatures, and I did in fact mean the common varieties. Why? Well, it is, you know, a forest, so maybe we could include some bona-fide forest animals. As for the Erymanthian Boar, yes it's mythical, but we're not told why it is, or at least wikipedia doesn't give that bit. Also, the boar features surprisingly heavy in Greek myth as a really tough animal, for example, one tore up Odysseus's knee, plus the Calydonian boar and the Crommyonian Sow.

Still, it's not a goer. Which I'd call a pity since all the really big boars turn up in forests, not deserts, while the Tier 2 level of the Boar Rider suggests it's not that big, and thus could possibly be replaced as a ridden animal by a dire wolf, or some other large canid.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 31, 2016 07:36 PM

MattII said:
Still, it's not a goer. Which I'd call a pity since all the really big boars turn up in forests, not deserts, while the Tier 2 level of the Boar Rider suggests it's not that big, and thus could possibly be replaced as a ridden animal by a dire wolf, or some other large canid.

If I may point out, the boar is usually native to forested areas as well as generally colder climates. Same goes for wolf. Just wanted to mention it.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 01, 2016 07:46 AM
Edited by MattII at 18:45, 01 Feb 2016.

Yes, but if you look at the relative ranges of the wolf:


And the Boar:


You'll notice a big area of southern Mongolia and north-west China which the boar misses out. Thus, the wolf is probably better at dealing with dry climes than the boar, which if the orcs inhabit any of the same landscapes as they do in the heroes games, probably makes them a better choice of mount for goblins.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted February 01, 2016 10:29 AM

Remember that the warthog, which is very much like a more aggressive boar, DOES live in hotter climates.

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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted February 01, 2016 12:27 PM
Edited by Articun at 13:10, 01 Feb 2016.

You must excuse me because this is going to be long and big.

Let me address myself what has so far been stated:

Firstly I want to remind you that Inolin is a project that first and foremost wants to address to the majority of Heroes fans. This “back to the roots” movement means that we want, Minastir and I, to bring back units from different iterations of each faction into a new lineup that will also provide new ideas. The ability to have 7 tiers and a total of 12 units in each factions allows us to do so. Having this mind, please understand the following:

1. The number of elves in sylvan, 3 in total leaves only 2 elven units in total in the final lineup as the Druid and Warden cannot exist simultaneously. Furthermore, the Stag the Warden Rides is a big unit, allowing for a less pronounced elven unit, much like the Basilisk in Heroes VII. We can all agree, I hope, that two units of elves in the final lineup is not too much, or pushed down our throat. And also the faction provides a variety of beast like units, and not so many humanoids.

2. Unicorn and Centaurs seem to have gained a lot of heated comments. Maybe for many of you Unicorn is a boring unit and I could agree with you. But Unicorns have long been associated with the purity of the forest, with the magical glade and also with each incarnation of Sylvan. In heroes VII that this unit is missing something feels amiss. For you it may feel redundant to use it, but please do understand that nostalgia must also be filled and the factions need to have some roots to connect it with previous titles. To also address the boring upgrade, we could not provide the Alicorn upgrade, since the Baloth has the leaping ability allowing it to act as a semi flyer. In addition, both Champion units are flyers, and there is also a flyer in core, two shooters and one unit with limited shots. So having another unit turning into a flyer would make this faction very strong. The Centaur returns to this faction and is in level two mainly as Minastir said to continue the legacy of previous hero titles. Centaurs have taken an upgrade from Heroes VI and onward. But, in this world, it needs to provide this place with this specific role as a melee unit. It was our choice to do so and it is also along the lines of returning back to the roots among the role and theme variables.

3. My dear Rakshasa92, you are very hard to please. And I don’t mean it in a disrespectful way. You have an amount of knowledge for mythological units that shows love and devotion to this particular area of knowledge. But, I would like to point out that a franchise like heroes cannot launch with an arsenal of units so new and alien to the already devoted fans. Also, as Minastir pointed out, some mythological beings are similar with just a variation of names, or are often depicted quite alike. In the end, I do hope we can agree that we can provide a lineup with “boring” or “much used” units along with some new ones to make the transition easier? Heroes needs indeed some new blood, but one step at a time . Finally, the only reason most units are from Greek mythology is because they are familiar with our culture, while the rest now come slowly into the open once more. That does not justify the overuse, but it does help people connect with a faction more because it feels closer to something he/she knows. Not many people out there share the love for mythology and cryptozoology and they feel excited just to recognize some monsters. That is why I must stretch the need for the change and the introduction of more unfamiliar beasts slowly and step-by-step.

4. About Cu Sith, Wolf and Boar: Wolf and Cu Sith canot exist in the same lineup. As I have written in the info of the unit, Cu Sith is actually a dog/wolf nature spirit so it fills the role of wolf, while providing a different visage, thus making the unit more magical and better fitting for a magical forest theme. We also considered the Tiger of Heroes IV but preferred to play a little bit of God that the fantasy world creation rule allows us and make the Cu Sith evolve to a Glade Spirit that is more Tiger Like, thus having both a wolf and Tiger unit in the faction. Finally, I can agree with you that the boar could fit a more Savage (in my opinion) Sylvan. But we preferred to go with the Boar Rider in Stronghold, as the orcs breed the hogs and use them for their meat but also as able mounts. Recall also that it was not so much the geological location of the unit as the thematic of the faction that made us choose this change. The Boar is more symbolic of the “mad” or primal warrior, while the bear is associated with the intuitive and instinctive warrior and the Stag to the noble one. So, the bear went to Fortress, the boar to Stronghold and the Stag to the elves.

5. The only reason we didn’t use a kitsune or ninetails unit is because this unit is usually associated more with darker use of magic or maybe this is the impression I got from the Buddhist representation of the monster. As such, it would fit more a dark forest theme than the magical forest. And we are working on a darker forest theme. So, the suggestion will not go unnoticed

6. “However, there are some similarities between factions (e.g. each one has a caster at tier 4/5) which I am not sure if it was an intention or not”. The intention was and still is, to try to have as many roles in different places across all factions. But a spell-caster unit feels better in the position between tiers 3-5. So, we do have the most impact of spell-caster in this range. Not to say there are no spell-caster in tiers 1, 2 and 6 but they are fewer. Let’s say, across 10 factions we have 1 tier 1 spell-caster, no tier 2, 3 tier 3, 4 tier 4, 3 tier 5 and so on. But we do have other roles as well spread out as diverse as we could.

7. As for the name of the world, "Inolin", Minastir and I tried different things and this name kind of struck both of us, so it stuck . It doesn’t mean something, but it does sound interesting.

8. Right now, we focus on lineups, later maybe we will try to add the general feel of the Faction Town-screen by providing pictures we find appropriate and also music themes that could work with the faction. I don’t know if we can go further into skills, racial etc, because this is a much more headache producing procedure. Much more than producing lineups

9. As for the Phoenix: The lore of the Phoenix does not describe it as a fiery bird or an elemental of fire or anything like that. The Phoenix is associated with fire only with its death. If anything, in Egypt it is associated with creation as the bird Benu that was one of the first things to come into existence, in Hebrew-Christian tradition it is associated with beauty and purity as the only creature that was allowed to stay into Eden close to God. In Chinese mythology it governs a direction and the Greek culture follows the Egyptian one. What the Phoenix represents in its essence is immortality, the ability to always be reborn, the victory of life over death and successful evolution. This is what we wanted to portray in Sylvan and that is why we used the traditional lore instead of the fantasy one.

10. Now, a final notice. Some units have vague descriptions in purpose. What Minastir and I agreed upon was that we wanted to provide details and information about each faction and units but also let them be quite vague as well. That way there is a unity among the units of each faction but the units are not necessarily tied to the faction. This was done in Heroes I-IV were Factions were thematic but also free, meaning that anyone could take the units and use them as he or she pleased. We don’t want each unit to feel specific to this faction or that faction, or that it couldn’t be used here or there. We wanted it to feel in place with its faction but also be free enough to be used as each player wanted.

I hope i could help clarify some stuff. I also understand that our vision may not see eye to eye with all of you and this is understandable. What i would like to ask of you though is to remain civilized in your comments and please try not to attack each other. Thank you

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 01, 2016 05:30 PM

Articun said:
It doesn’t mean something

Don't say that, suggest no one knows what it means and give vague and abstract hints in campaigns..
____________

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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted February 01, 2016 05:35 PM
Edited by Articun at 17:36, 01 Feb 2016.

It doesn't mean something pre-release (yup, being hopeful here, someone might be seeing this and getting intrested in making it happen ). Post-release it may mean everything and anything. Anyone can create stories about the why it was called such and by whom

I don't know if i will have the strength to try and write "campaign" stories; though if anyone wants to, it will just enrich this project and is more than welcome. Maybe once we have posted all factions i could give it a go at trying something like a story... hm...

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 01, 2016 05:45 PM

What I meant is, mysterious is good, small hints here and there but actually not revealing it sparkles the player's imagination and anyone can think what he wants and eventually develop his own theories, in the opposite of having only one true explanation and being condemned to accept it whether you like it or not.
____________

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 01, 2016 07:13 PM
Edited by MattII at 08:15, 02 Feb 2016.

Rakshasa92 said:
Remember that the warthog, which is very much like a more aggressive boar, DOES live in hotter climates.
Except it only lives in sub-Saharan Africa. Also the boar seems fine with hot (lives all the way down in Sumatra and Java), but isn't so keen on dry, especially cold and dry (doesn't live in the Gobi, or in Siberia).

Also, thank you Aricun for those explanations, though I still say the centaur is really too low (it's effectively a guy on a horse, minus the horse's head), and should instead be somewhere in tiers 3-4. I know it was at Tier 1 in H3, but that doesn't mean it was right, not with the Nomad at Tier 3.

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articun
articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted February 16, 2016 06:11 PM

So... Academy is here!!!

Hope you like our version of the flying cities and towers of the wizards.

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