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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 191 pages long: 1 20 40 60 80 100 120 140 160 ... 174 175 176 177 178 ... 180 191 · «PREV / NEXT»
P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted July 01, 2021 09:26 AM

Imho water walk is more than inferior than fly or DD in general, it's costy for very limited and specific use in general, compared to the other 2 spells. Furthermore its harder to get compared to one of the other two spells, since it's a level 4 spell. I never really found a good use for it, while the other two spells always have its purpose.

You need: a short distance over water, water in the first place, the spell itself, it's limited to water only, it's costy, it uses movement points, has no terrain benefits like fly, it's from a weak magic school.

I'd personally put it on lvl3 for 8/6 spell points with no restrictions for movement without water magic

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 01, 2021 03:08 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 15:16, 01 Jul 2021.

Again, the point was never that Water Walk is better than Dimension Door, but rather, that Fire Magic doesn't have *any* adventure mobility spells (or any adventure spells *at all*).

Though Dimension Door is known as extremely OP, Water Walk still is a great spell for its level. Crossing a water body of *any* lenght normally costs two full days - one for embarkingand another for disembarking, not to mention pay for the boat - while Water Walk can do it in a single day. This is also very useful to escape from anything that pursues you. It is also much cheaper in spell points.

Thus why it counts on why Water is better than Fire.

The real counter argument you haven't really made is that heroes without Water Magic can still be reasonably proficient using it (unlike the big bonuses of Town Portal and DD), since expert water just gives +movement and -spell point cost unlike effects like "Choose any town" or "use it more times".

Another strong argument for Water Magic is Clone. Specially as you can clone Archangels and resurrect with them, or give a killing attack with your cloned level 7 (esp. things like Dragons and Hydras that attack more than one stack). This is extremely powerful and much more influential than "+ base damage in X spell". The enemy still needs to attack the stack to dispel it, providing even more utility. I'd say this is basically on part with Berserk and also has potential to dedeat overwhelming odds, with the advantage it works vs *any* town and there is *no* immunity to it, so with Prayer and Water Walk the scales definitely turn to Water being better hands down.
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Never changing = never improving

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted July 01, 2021 04:50 PM

Water sucks, 1 gog can destroy your 9999 archangels clone. Clone is worth it only on Eovacius

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 01, 2021 07:07 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:08, 01 Jul 2021.

NimoStar said:
Thus why it counts on why Water is better than Fire.


While having 1 mediocre adventure spell is better than having 0, waterwalk is not an influential spell (most of the time). Thus, it is not a selling point of Water Magic at all. If you "want" waterwalk, you're better off going for DD or Fly (rolling spells @ guilds), which gives you essentially a WAY better waterwalk

NimoStar said:
Another strong argument for Water Magic is Clone. Specially as you can clone Archangels and resurrect with them, or give a killing attack with your cloned level 7 (esp. things like Dragons and Hydras that attack more than one stack). This is extremely powerful and much more influential than "+ base damage in X spell".


You know that IF it was influential and "extremely powerful", it would be massively overused by default? there are no hidden strategies in a game that is over 2 decades old.

revolut1oN said:
Water sucks, 1 gog can destroy your 9999 archangels clone. Clone is worth it only on Eovacius


This man speaks the truth.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted July 01, 2021 09:14 PM

Clone requires a proper strategy to use. If used in smart ways, it can turn the tides of a crucial battle. There's nothing more to say about this, it should have been pretty obvious from the very beginning. Players who cheese would agree with me that Clone has massive potential in the hands of someone who knows how to handle it.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted July 01, 2021 10:02 PM

just because you say so, it doesnt make it that way - besides eov ive never seen it used in a pro match.

It can be used to cheese in single player maps where u have blind or force field and your opponent is a dumb ai, but in actual gameplay by the time u have clone you also have 100 other better spells to cast. I can't even imagine a scenario when it can be a gamechanger unlike some other unpopular spells (e.g. disruptive ray or frenzy)

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 01, 2021 10:10 PM

Water has lots of great spells:
Ice Bolt (Yes I know Lightning Bolt is better, but there is no pendant to protect against Ice Bolt and if you have Water Magic and not Air Magic, it might be a better choice or if you have the water orb or fight Fire/Energy Elementals or have Alagar.) Cure, Bless, Dispel, Teleport (Extremely cheap at Expert.) Clone and Prayer + Summon Boat and Water Walk.

I use all spells from Water Magic, except Remove Obstacle, which is very rarely worth anything.

Btw. not everyone plays with "Spell Research", so finding Water Walk in a Mage Guild can still be great, depending on map.
And not everyone plays with DD in Air Magic at 4 times per day either...

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 01, 2021 10:14 PM

About Clone, you guys do know this gives Archangels ANOTHER way to resurrect troops, right?... Or you can clone Sea Dogs or Gorgons or something crazy like that and yes Eovacius makes things even more insane.
Clone should definitely not be underestimated.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 01, 2021 11:19 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 23:20, 01 Jul 2021.

Phoenix4ever said:

Btw. not everyone plays with "Spell Research", so finding Water Walk in a Mage Guild can still be great, depending on map.

Research is pretty key part of Hota, and it's a standard rule. It should be included in the discussions of balance.

But on topic:

I think water and fire are pretty even I would say. On sea maps, water should probably be the choice over the two, as it offers some adventure spell advantages. On a dry land thou, it gets somewhat more complicated. Fire doesn't have many spells that scale with by mastering the school, but Berserk is probably the best spell if we're only looking at spells from fire and water schools. Basically, it can solely lead into situations where the other player is softlocked out of the game and cannot do a single action.

Problem with water is that it doesn't really bring anything "unfair" to the table (such as Berserk), and most of the stuff it can do can somewhat be achieved by just using the earth and air schools.

For example, (mass) Haste can usually achieve the same things you're looking from Prayer/Forgetfulness/Teleport. Haste can also cure Slow, which is probably the most common debuff that is targeted to all of your creatures, kinda taking something off from Cure and Dispel.

Bless is good early, but that's kinda the problem with it: When developing a hero, I don't see a reason from not starting from Earth school, and then following it up with Air. Therefore, by the time you mastery both of those schools, the moment of Bless has kinda come and gone already. Of course, you cannot fully control how your hero will develop, but if something is out of the "optimal" build path, I feel Mass Bless kinda ends up being a consolation prize.

Clone is probably the most unique spell Water can offer. At best, you summon a big threat that immediately deals damage to opponent, while also leaving the threat to the battlefield. On a rare case, it can be a gamechanger, but it's probably still the biggest selling point for me when talking about Water magic.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 01, 2021 11:43 PM
Edited by fred79 at 23:44, 01 Jul 2021.

P4R4D0X0N said:
Imho water walk is more than inferior than fly or DD in general, it's costy for very limited and specific use in general, compared to the other 2 spells. Furthermore its harder to get compared to one of the other two spells, since it's a level 4 spell. I never really found a good use for it, while the other two spells always have its purpose.

You need: a short distance over water, water in the first place, the spell itself, it's limited to water only, it's costy, it uses movement points, has no terrain benefits like fly, it's from a weak magic school.

I'd personally put it on lvl3 for 8/6 spell points with no restrictions for movement without water magic


doesn't all the adv map movement buff spells use movement points, though?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 01, 2021 11:46 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:53, 01 Jul 2021.

Quote:
I can't even imagine a scenario when it can be a gamechanger

You have a pretty terrible imagination, but since such scenarios such as resurrecting with angels were already provided, you woudn't even need to use it.

"1 gog can destroy 9999 archangels clones" but 1 gog takes 1 slot of your army, 9999 archangel clones don't, and the 9999 archangels cloned already did an ultra powerful resurrection for free, or destroyed an enemy, while you are wasting a turn of one of your seven stacks destroying an illusion. Yay you.

Also this:
Dead Cloned creatures are raised with Necromancy

Quote:
Research is pretty key part of Hota, and it's a standard rule. It should be included in the discussions of balance.


Interference is a standard rule and should be killed, buried, then disinterred, then burned, the ashes thrown to the winds and everybody dancing on the empty grave :V

Quote:
For example, (mass) Haste can usually achieve the same things you're looking from Prayer/Forgetfulness/Teleport. Haste can also cure Slow, which is probably the most common debuff that is targeted to all of your creatures, kinda taking something off from Cure and Dispel.


Bad reasoning. Haste can be countered by slow and haste can't, so if your enemy has mass slow this is just ping pong, while Prayer does the same as Haste and also brings other buffs, and none of it can be double-countered.
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Never changing = never improving

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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted July 02, 2021 04:35 AM
Edited by LouWeed at 04:36, 02 Jul 2021.

NimoStar said:
Also this:
Dead Cloned creatures are raised with Necromancy


But that's ... only the enemy's cloned creatures, not yours. Surely this is a disadvantage, if you're the one using clone, and they're the necromancer? Am I missing something?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 02, 2021 06:08 AM

revolut1oN said:
Water sucks, 1 gog can destroy your 9999 archangels clone.


Ironically that is why I rate clone as second most useful spell in single maps and when playing castle faction (majority of maps). Clone is first to get destroyed so you can cast it again.

Archangels + clone saves about half of time a map requires to be completed. When heavy loses the resurrect phase takes forever, starting with middle game then until the end.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted July 02, 2021 07:38 AM

Aha! I'm disagree on a thing! Because my study that

Castle:

OP: Fire (If you want be evil as Death as H4), Adventure: Earth, Combat: Air and Water

Dungeon:

OP: Water (but banned to might hero), Adventure: Earth, Combat: Earth and Fire

Necropolis:

OP: Water and Air, Adventure: Air, Combat: ?

Rampart:

OP: Fire (but banned to might hero), Adventure: ?, Combat: Earth, Air and Water

Inferno:

OP: Water (but banned to might hero), Adventure: ? Combat: Earth and Fire

Tower:

OP: Fire (when you can't get a Arma in your library, for example, HoMM rule says cannot), Adventure: Earth, Air and Water, Combat: Earth, Water and Air

Stronghold:

OP: Water (but banned to might hero), Adventure: ?, Combat: Fire, Water, Earth

Fortress:

OP: ?, Adventure: Air, Combat: Earth, Fire, Water

Conflux:

OP: Fire (when you can't get a Arma in your library, for example, HoMM rule says cannot to open game, but you can use Sprites, Strom Elementals), Adventure: ?, Combat: all

Ok you can't find OP Earth than Fire or Water. Castle can be Archmage class, if you take a Earth, Air and Water, but goes to combat you use a Air and Water.

Ok Magician heroes can use a Water and/or Fire, because you must give them OP. Balance!

Normal what 3DO taught us. But fact list can be wrong and/or unclear, except OP lists are true.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 02, 2021 08:24 AM

NimoStar said:
Bad reasoning.

I've seen countless arguments that don't hold water in these forums, yet I have ever started my argument like that. If these conversations are getting under your skin, I suggest taking a break.

NimoStar said:

Haste can be countered by slow and haste can't, so if your enemy has mass slow this is just ping pong, while Prayer does the same as Haste and also brings other buffs, and none of it can be double-countered.

Well, of course casting Prayer has it advantages over Haste, my argument was about trying to live without Prayer, as you mostly cast it because of speed anyway. Having Prayer is mostly luxury thing, a Lambo when talking about speed spells. However, a simple Fiat Punto (Haste) will usually be enough to drag you to the finish line. And despite if you're playing against AI or a human being, you're 95%+ of time up against neutral monsters against the map which don't cast anything anyway, so there will be no counters anyway.

And about ping pong, just like in the real game, it always has a winner. Good players time their casts correctly, possibly by guaranteeing two spell casts in a row (first Haste/Slow, then something else), which is often enough to put the enemy to it's knees - you damage the enemy hard enough, and their stack are no longer a threat to you. At that point, when the enemy finally get their turn, they can technically counter your initial cast, but it will simply not stop them losing the battle.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 02, 2021 08:25 AM

Hourglass said:

Research is pretty key part of Hota, and it's a standard rule. It should be included in the discussions of balance.

Well I don't like it and will never play with it. It makes the game less fun and less balanced.
At least it can be turned off, like Interference.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 03, 2021 01:18 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 02:19, 03 Jul 2021.

Quote:

But that's ... only the enemy's cloned creatures, not yours. Surely this is a disadvantage, if you're the one using clone, and they're the necromancer? Am I missing something?



Ah, mostly you are right, I only think it's a good piece of trivia. Also however it has certain niche uses. Example 1v1v1 FFA.

You can give one of your enemies a huge skeleton army by using clone, so they can defeat your other enemy.

Quote:

Quote:
Bad reasoning


I've seen countless arguments that don't hold water in these forums, yet I have ever started my argument like that. If these conversations are getting under your skin, I suggest taking a break.



Saying "Bad reasoning" is getting under my skin? It's literally bad reasoning and that's it... there is no emotional attachment in saying that.

it was stated "haste is better than slow because it doesn't counter slow", however, it is Slow that counters Haste, while Prayer is *not* countered.  Not to mention Slow is more powerful than Haste. Not only that but prayer also has other beneficial effects. "Winning ping pong" for a single turn is much worse than having a realiable power. +4 Attack and Defense to all troops is also really powerful. Considering the speed too,  +4 speed +4 attack +4 defense is stronger than a relic-type artifact bonus.

Something else is that expert water for Prayer is the same as expert water for Cure. So you not only got prayer advantage assured, but you can also remove slow with no problem later, along with things like petrification and blind.

Anyways, to turn the argument on it's head:

Since it's universally agreed Fire Magic is bad except for the single "ultra OP and super essential spell of Berserk that single handedly beats impossible odds"

Then it's fairly plain and obvious by the same token that Berserk has to be nerfed and the rest of Fire Magic buffed to be worth something without relying on this single random, vs faction-specific, level 4 spell (which also several factions don't have any access to).
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Never changing = never improving

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 03, 2021 01:55 AM

can't you just alter spell traits in the text file?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 03, 2021 02:00 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 02:01, 03 Jul 2021.

We can all alter everything but I thought the point was having a balance discussion. Saying fire is strong because it has a single, potentally extremely OP spell that *some* towns can use in *some* matchups isn't exactly balanced.
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Never changing = never improving

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 03, 2021 09:53 PM

@Nimo

I'm unsure what you're trying to proof currently? Prayer being better than Haste or Water magic generally being better than Air?

The way I see it, the discussion have been about water vs fire, "which of the two is the worst/better one"-type of thing. From my point of view, as I said earlier, they're pretty even, if we're talking about dry land games. I by no means are trying to bash water magic. Water has overall more usable spells, but Fire probably has the biggest spell of the two schools while having couple of goodies alongside it.

NimoStar said:

Since it's universally agreed Fire Magic is bad except for the single "ultra OP and super essential spell of Berserk that single handedly beats impossible odds"


Ehm.

Could there be a tiny, itty-bitty chance that you're just,  slightly, maybe, cutting few corners here and there?
It makes zero sense to say that, because literally nobody is making that argument.

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