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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 189 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 40 80 120 160 ... 185 186 187 188 189 · «PREV / NEXT»
shev441
shev441


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2022 04:45 PM

ow about targeting the problem of low effecency of capitol strategy in Heroes 3?

Currently in Heroes 3 (both multiplayer and single) its way better strategy to simply buy army and conquer lands where you can find resources and reinvest them into more army and hereos.

THe problem with going for capitol is known for a long time. You need to "waste" almost a week to build it , you cant build army dwellings so in the beggining of 2nd week you have nothing to recruit. You dont have army so you cant conquer the map and it takes up to 3rd week for capitol to generate income bigger than costs of buildings. Often times game is about to end then. Capitol trategy seems to be only usefull in  small, poor in resources single player maps. But even there csuch high  investment  it just make a game longer and less dynamiac.

What if we would modify the buildings necessery to build capitol? It wont be a precedence casue before HOTA have modified some towns like that e.g. tower no longer requires mage guild + 4lvl dwell to build 5th ,6th and 7th tier units.

In my opinion the step in right direction would be to remove marketplace from building requirement for City hall. Why?
A) In first week of the game player could build 1 extra building than before. To end up with City Hall + Castle + 1 new dwelling in 7th day of the week. That way on 1/2/1 day player could recriut bigger army (lack of it was 1 of biggest problem with capitol strategy)
2) You don't have to spend 5 wood and 500 gold. Sometimes its hard on poor in recources maps to build ecenomics building and dwelling cause it cost so much wood.
3) You have City hall / capitol 1 day earlier so your income and faction economy might is better.
4) Marketplace is often being build anyway - simply because its really valuable and it makes sense to build multiple of them in all towns to improve your trade rates.
5) Building city hall in new conquerd towns with no fort is going to be more effective str5ategy too.

Another idea is no slightly reduce costs of City hall / Capitol (maybe 4500/9000 or even 4000/8000?)

Anyway I am wondering what you think about it

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shev441
shev441


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2022 04:46 PM

ow about targeting the problem of low effecency of capitol strategy in Heroes 3?

Currently in Heroes 3 (both multiplayer and single) its way better strategy to simply buy army and conquer lands where you can find resources and reinvest them into more army and hereos.

THe problem with going for capitol is known for a long time. You need to "waste" almost a week to build it , you cant build army dwellings so in the beggining of 2nd week you have nothing to recruit. You dont have army so you cant conquer the map and it takes up to 3rd week for capitol to generate income bigger than costs of buildings. Often times game is about to end then. Capitol trategy seems to be only usefull in  small, poor in resources single player maps. But even there csuch high  investment  it just make a game longer and less dynamiac.

What if we would modify the buildings necessery to build capitol? It wont be a precedence casue before HOTA have modified some towns like that e.g. tower no longer requires mage guild + 4lvl dwell to build 5th ,6th and 7th tier units.

In my opinion the step in right direction would be to remove marketplace from building requirement for City hall. Why?
A) In first week of the game player could build 1 extra building than before. To end up with City Hall + Castle + 1 new dwelling in 7th day of the week. That way on 1/2/1 day player could recriut bigger army (lack of it was 1 of biggest problem with capitol strategy)
2) You don't have to spend 5 wood and 500 gold. Sometimes its hard on poor in recources maps to build ecenomics building and dwelling cause it cost so much wood.
3) You have City hall / capitol 1 day earlier so your income and faction economy might is better.
4) Marketplace is often being build anyway - simply because its really valuable and it makes sense to build multiple of them in all towns to improve your trade rates.
5) Building city hall in new conquerd towns with no fort is going to be more effective str5ategy too.

Another idea is no slightly reduce costs of City hall / Capitol (maybe 4500/9000 or even 4000/8000?)

Anyway I am wondering what you think about it

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 24, 2022 09:44 PM

Capitol is very efficient in HoMM3. It's just not the greatest idea to rush it. But it never has been a great idea anyway. You need troops 1st. Capitol pays for itself quickly, so you want one eventually.

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ExpertAirMagic
ExpertAirMagic

Tavern Dweller
posted March 25, 2022 02:46 AM

I apologize if this is the wrong thread to post it into, but I do not have sufficient post privileges to make a new thread.

Is it against the forum rules to ask people for services to make a mod? Most of these HoMM3 mods are a bit too much for me and I like the basic game as it is. I just had some balancing ideas for my own version.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 25, 2022 03:02 PM

Capitol..

Why Capitol you get a 1000g/d in Heroes 4? An easy guess that you visit a Dragon Utopia often, thus you get a income.. So we don't change into Heroes 3.. Remember WoG/ERA is a very fun.. But I guess that WoG creatures can pay much more.. and/or became Heroes 4, if MOD, etc..

Capitol or town also heroes are the expensive and too value.. thus checkmated, if you lose all them..
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 25, 2022 10:54 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:32, 26 Mar 2022.

ExpertAirMagic said:
I apologize if this is the wrong thread to post it into, but I do not have sufficient post privileges to make a new thread.

Is it against the forum rules to ask people for services to make a mod? Most of these HoMM3 mods are a bit too much for me and I like the basic game as it is. I just had some balancing ideas for my own version.


Not against rules but this is a HotA thread, you need to make a new thread for your sugestions.
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Never changing = never improving

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2022 12:45 AM

MattII said:
Except you're not guaranteed to have 50%, not in every map.

Well, obviously there are no guarantees of anything, but it's just happens that Hota is much more generous than SoD with artifacts, especially with minor level items. Both of the mentioned Interference artifacts happen to be minor.

With increased and more consistent starting armies, even side heroes can challenge minor artifact guards during week one, only estimating to lose one-stacks in return in most cases. Black towers and Churchyards both hand out minor artifacts, and since they're priorities anyway, there are way more more possibilities of finding those specific artifacts. Lastly, Black markets give you more outs for your search. Summa summarum, it isn't outrageous to think to be able found at least one of the artifacts on a consistent rate even from your starting zone.

And when it comes to accessibility of those artifacts, the ring and misc slot aren't nearly as contested as the other slots tend to be.

shev441 said:
ow about targeting the problem of low effecency of capitol strategy in Heroes 3?

I personally think that Capitol gameplay is in right place. Players have just realized along the years that creature structures are the best way of creating tempo, and this will pretty much be the fact even if something would be changed with income buildings. And there isn't really anything wrong with the Capitol, it just isn't sustainable, the-usual-go-to build path in the early game.

ExpertAirMagic said:
I apologize if this is the wrong thread to post it into, but I do not have sufficient post privileges to make a new thread.

Is it against the forum rules to ask people for services to make a mod? Most of these HoMM3 mods are a bit too much for me and I like the basic game as it is. I just had some balancing ideas for my own version.

I don't think this isn't really a good place for that kind of discussion, but everybody here understands why you're posting it like this. Still, when it comes to your actual question, I wouldn't be very optimistic you could find someone that would do such work. If you're liking the game as it is, I suggest sticking with the HD mod (not to be mistaken with Ubisoft's HD release, the mod makes some good quality of life changes.) Maybe in the future you can give Hota chance, and if you're willing to do some coding of your own, I suggest checking out the "How to change Hota" thread.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 26, 2022 03:46 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:49, 26 Mar 2022.

Quote:
Both of the mentioned Interference artifacts happen to be minor.


You shoot yourself in the foot with this argument. So let me completely destroy any hope for "interference". These ridiculous "minor" artifacts reduce enemy spellpower in 10%, while taking an artifact slot to yourself that could be used in something MUCH m,ore useful. But anyways,

Now let's see how this compared with the opposite, spell power enhancement

a TREASURE, not Minor, Artifact already gives +2 duration to all your spells, the Ring of Conjuring. Unaffected by Interference, even 100%

Collar of Conjuring, also Trasure, similarly unaffected, +1 duration.

Cape of Conjuring, also Treasure, +3 duration, also immune.

And the kicker, all of these combined, an additional +50 duration, with just three treasures that can be bought for extremely cheap and common at artifact merchants.

Well well...

I gues you can say "Oh, I don't care about all curses and blesses, I just care about damage!"

With the combat being dominated by mass curses and blesses, this is extremely unwise, but OK.

Dragon Wing Tabard, a Minor class artifact, gives +2 Spell Power and +2 Knowledge. Your opponent would need 20 SP for an interference artifact to annul *half* of its power, since it doesn't affect mana.

Crown of the Supreme Magi, Minor, +4 knowledge. Are we saying the stupid, puny, useless, waste of code and time, interference artifacts can compare? They don't even have any use against neutral armies!

Scales of the Greater Basilisk, +3 power. Usefull in all combats not only vs enemy hero. Enemy hero would have to have 30 power for an interference artifact lower it to 27. Laughtable. But not only that, consider you have only 3 power which is not unreasonable for when a might hero gets this; this is effectively +100% power, while interference artifact will always be a negligible percentage.


All in all, interference is undoubtably a joke, a bad trip, a poison that courses through the veins of this once-glorious game. Or Interference dies or heroes 3 does, there is no middle ground. No more Eagle Eye type skills! Victory or death!







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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 26, 2022 05:06 AM

Hourglass said:
MattII said:
Except you're not guaranteed to have 50%, not in every map.

Well, obviously there are no guarantees of anything, but it's just happens that Hota is much more generous than SoD with artifacts, especially with minor level items. Both of the mentioned Interference artifacts happen to be minor.

With increased and more consistent starting armies, even side heroes can challenge minor artifact guards during week one, only estimating to lose one-stacks in return in most cases. Black towers and Churchyards both hand out minor artifacts, and since they're priorities anyway, there are way more more possibilities of finding those specific artifacts. Lastly, Black markets give you more outs for your search. Summa summarum, it isn't outrageous to think to be able found at least one of the artifacts on a consistent rate even from your starting zone.

And when it comes to accessibility of those artifacts, the ring and misc slot aren't nearly as contested as the other slots tend to be.
That's only 20% though. I note you haven't offered a response to the fact that the skill is virtually never offered to might heroes.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2022 10:54 AM

MattII said:

That's only 20% though. I note you haven't offered a response to the fact that the skill is virtually never offered to might heroes.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring this with? Or did you meant magic heroes, perhaps? Might heroes, or maybe especially the most used ones, such Beastmasters, Overlords and Barbarians have decent changes of learning the skill. And since the skill is literally only used in final battles, there's no need of having it right away. Actually, despite Rangers being a good class also, imo they overshoot their ability of achieving the skill. Interference, just like Resistance, doesn't create tempo in the early game, so I personally rather have it later than sooner. After mastering a bunch of skills, the chances of learning the skill go up nicely.

And I don't personally see how even 20% is somehow bad, and the point here was that we combine the skill and the items, and that those named artifacts can be obtained without a sweat aka with very little danger within the fights.  I mean, I personally find it absurd that there's a possibility of lowering the enemy spell power by 75% without counting Giselle, so even having 40%-50% of is a really, really big advantage in the end fight. Magic heroes basically draw their advantages and game plan by having a lot of effectiveness and power within their casts, so interrupting such things will achieve an upper hand in a battle against a mage.


NimoStar said:

I gues you can say "Oh, I don't care about all curses and blesses, I just care about damage!"

With the combat being dominated by mass curses and blesses, this is extremely unwise, but OK.

Not sure if you know, but the competitive Homm3 doesn't exactly use a very vast pool of blessings and curses in the end fight. Due Earth and  Air being so dominating, you're focusing of having their schools of magic mastered, so something like Bless and Curse are usually out of question. But you likely wouldn't want to waste a turn even on them if you have those spells upgraded. So, the most used buffs/debuffs are without anyone's surprise Slow and Haste, with only some noticeable mentions going towards Anti-Magic and Shield. You see Blind a lot less than you probably might expect, for example.

Most used spells alongside with Haste and Slow are perhaps Implosion, Chain Lightning, Magic Arrow, Meteor Shower, some sort of Resurrection and Summoning spells.

NimoStar said:
About Conjuring artifacts

At first I would like to say that these artifacts were given new life due Interference: They were only partially used in the early game in the times of pre-interference and the combination artifact especially was pretty much never seen as a worthy objective. However after introducing the skill there is some merit of using them, and they do present at least a soft-counter towards high level Giselle or similar hero with lots of Interference. Personally, I'm all down for it that some not widely used parts in the past are being at least somewhat usable today.

In normal circumstances there really isn't much of usage for those items thou. Neck is probably the most contested slot in the game, cape slot is dedicated to Cape of Velocity or at least the tabard, and there are better rings than the conjuring one. In the end, even if the  player would end up running these artifacts, it wouldn't stop Interference from being effective, as it does more things than just reduce the duration of spells.

And about treaure vs. minor artifacts: Compering them doesn't exactly make much sense if the gameplay is routed towards you using minor artifacts as a foundation of your gear. In Hota your journey to victory starts with slaying those Zombies and various types of dragons.

NimoStar said:

All in all, interference is undoubtably a joke, a bad trip, a poison that courses through the veins of this once-glorious game. Or Interference dies or heroes 3 does, there is no middle ground. No more Eagle Eye type skills! Victory or death!


Well, just like I said in the previous page, Interference is used every day, in every level of competitive Homm3 gaming. Despite you seeing things differently will not change this fact.

I'm afraid you've chosen the latter option with this one.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 26, 2022 12:27 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 14:04, 26 Mar 2022.

If only there was a way to have both Resistance and Interference skills, without messing up the skill probabilities.
Interference alone messes up the skill probabilities... (I wonder how HotA messed such a simple thing up.)

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Erathianer
Erathianer


Adventuring Hero
posted March 26, 2022 03:24 PM
Edited by Erathianer at 15:24, 26 Mar 2022.

So I think a hero should be able to cast spells even if his last unit is blinded. Then he should be the last one in the combat round to have the possibity of casting a spell OR retreat. That would break this STUPID blind + resurection combo.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 26, 2022 04:16 PM

Why you don't cast a Armaggedon? Fear? Fool AI gives you a Blind. Then ok. No fix..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 26, 2022 06:51 PM
Edited by MattII at 19:43, 26 Mar 2022.

Hourglass said:
MattII said:

That's only 20% though. I note you haven't offered a response to the fact that the skill is virtually never offered to might heroes.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring this with? Or did you meant magic heroes, perhaps? Might heroes, or maybe especially the most used ones, such Beastmasters, Overlords and Barbarians have decent changes of learning the skill. And since the skill is literally only used in final battles, there's no need of having it right away. Actually, despite Rangers being a good class also, imo they overshoot their ability of achieving the skill. Interference, just like Resistance, doesn't create tempo in the early game, so I personally rather have it later than sooner. After mastering a bunch of skills, the chances of learning the skill go up nicely.
Yes I mean not offered to magic heroes.

Quote:
And I don't personally see how even 20% is somehow bad, and the point here was that we combine the skill and the items, and that those named artifacts can be obtained without a sweat aka with very little danger within the fights.  I mean, I personally find it absurd that there's a possibility of lowering the enemy spell power by 75% without counting Giselle, so even having 40%-50% of is a really, really big advantage in the end fight. Magic heroes basically draw their advantages and game plan by having a lot of effectiveness and power within their casts, so interrupting such things will achieve an upper hand in a battle against a mage.
You're still assuming that:
A) Your hero is given the opportunity to learn the skill (this isn't guaranteed.
B[1]) Those particular artefacts are on the map.
B[2]) One of your heroes can get the artefacts.


And it still doesn't affect blesses and curses beyond duration.

Erathianer said:
So I think a hero should be able to cast spells even if his last unit is blinded. Then he should be the last one in the combat round to have the possibity of casting a spell OR retreat. That would break this STUPID blind + resurection combo.
How do you go seven rounds of being Blinded without casting Cure?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 26, 2022 07:55 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 20:00, 26 Mar 2022.

Quote:
Not sure if you know, but the competitive Homm3 doesn't exactly use a very vast pool of blessings and curses in the end fight. Due Earth and  Air being so dominating, you're focusing of having their schools of magic mastered, so something like Bless and Curse are usually out of question. But you likely wouldn't want to waste a turn even on them if you have those spells upgraded. So, the most used buffs/debuffs are without anyone's surprise Slow and Haste, with only some noticeable mentions going towards Anti-Magic and Shield. You see Blind a lot less than you probably might expect, for example.

Most used spells alongside with Haste and Slow


Again, you are sayiong I'm right while only pretending to say I'm wrong.

And not all heroes can get expert earth/air, RNG is a capricious mistress so stuff like Prayer can definitely be used if RNG gave someone water magic (even a random witch hut).

But anyways, admitting that Haste and Slow are the most important spells already is saying I am right and interference is dumb.

The thing about "making the treasure extenders more important" is bogus, what is more important for the game, a late-game use for a treasure class artifact (which was already useful UNLIKE eagle eye artifacts or Pendant of Negativity and many others, for instance), OR the base mechanics of a very iconic secondary skill like Resistance where NOTHING was wrong and is STILL used on creatures, such as Dwarf and Unicorn?

All the resistance artifacts are still available as well, NOT TO MENTION HOTA ADDED THEIR OWN COMBINATION RESISTANCE ARTIFACT MAKING THEIR OWN POINT ABOUT "INTERFERENMCE BEING SO RANDOM that it just HAD to be removed" Both Hypocritical AND moot!

Resistance was designed to stack from Rampart Heroes to Rampart Creatures and be synergistic, Interference is antithetical to this wise design goal and anti-synergistic with Rampart creatures since it doesn't stack with their ability bonuses.

Bring back Thorgrim. The promised messiah.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 26, 2022 09:04 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 21:09, 26 Mar 2022.

NimoStar said:
Bring back Thorgrim. The promised messiah.

Thorgrim never left my game and Giselle never entered.

And good point about the synergi between Rampart creatures and Resistance.
There is no synergy between Rampart creatures and Interference.

Also weird how HotA chose to make a Resistance combo artifact, but then remove the skill, it makes no sense.

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weilan
weilan


Adventuring Hero
posted March 26, 2022 09:27 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
NimoStar said:
Bring back Thorgrim. The promised messiah.

Thorgrim never left my game and Giselle never entered.

And good point about the synergi between Rampart creatures and Resistance.
There is no synergy between Rampart creatures and Interference.

Also weird how HotA chose to make a Resistance combo artifact, but then remove the skill, it makes no sense.


Why not have both Throgrim and Giselle? They are both good characters. There aren't any "horrible" characters in the game really.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 26, 2022 10:11 PM

No, but Thorgrim is the OG, Giselle is just a wannabe.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2022 11:08 PM

MattII said:
Yes I mean not offered to magic heroes.


Okay, now that makes more sense.

That being said, I expect magic heroes doing well in certain areas, and expect might heroes being better in some another area. If you look back, the magic heroes did have pathetic chances of learning Resistance as well, and I don't see that as a problem either. I mean, it's a might skill after all, they don't have good chances of obtaining Offence either, but I'm not mad for them about it.

MattII said:

You're still assuming that:
A) Your hero is given the opportunity to learn the skill (this isn't guaranteed.
B[1]) Those particular artefacts are on the map.
B[2]) One of your heroes can get the artefacts.

Obviously nothing is ever guaranteed in a game like this. To some extend, I see similarities between Homm3 hero building and a deck building game such Magic the Gathering; while there's luck involved, you're not on the mercy of pure RNG. This is why you don't see Knights as main heroes, or why heroes like Beastmasters and Overlords are being run game after game after game. So, your "plan" can fail, but if you keep pushing the best possible odds within your games, you will achieve more victories. And this ultimately leads to why Interference is so widely being used; it's not a secret that including it to your build while going after those artifacts increases your win%.

MattII said:

And it still doesn't affect blesses and curses beyond duration.
Like I said, there are only couple of debuffs and buffs that tend to see play in final battles, and interestingly, Slow and Haste also happen to cancel each other out. And for example in Haste's case, the aren't really much, if anything, you can do against it pre-battle, other than building up Interference. While I see countless arguments of the final battle having huge amounts of SP and therefore duration wouldn't really come to play, note that not every battle is treated as such. Sometimes, you meet up with each other before being able to gear up, and might heroes usually have pretty pathetic spell power in those kind of scenarios. So, being able to cut enemy duration of just 1-2 points can be game winning.

But really, it really is the combination of simply reducing the casting capability of the enemy hero why Interference is much used. No other skill affects resurrection, buffs and summoning elementals, while still going very strong against damage spells and debuffs.

If Interference was somehow "bad", we wouldn't see it in any level of play, and most certainly not among the best players. I would like you to explain this contradiction.

NimoStar said:

Again, you are sayiong I'm right while only pretending to say I'm wrong.


No, you're just (again) putting words to my mouth - I didn't rate the spells, and sadly you won't dominate the ladder with Slow and Haste alone.

NimoStar said:

And not all heroes can get expert earth/air, RNG is a capricious mistress so stuff like Prayer can definitely be used if RNG gave someone water magic (even a random witch hut).
You can play as you wish, but there's a reason why some heroes are being mained while others are not.

NimoStar said:

The thing about "making the treasure extenders more important" is bogus, what is more important for the game, a late-game use for a treasure class artifact (which was already useful UNLIKE eagle eye artifacts or Pendant of Negativity and many others, for instance), OR the base mechanics of a very iconic secondary skill like Resistance where NOTHING was wrong and is STILL used on creatures, such as Dwarf and Unicorn?


Well, as you pointed out, Resistance artifacts are still in the game, and the skill itself is there also. You're even still able to play with your loved Messiah.

I don't exactly see what this crusade is all about, as I know you're not generally even interested about the Hota itself, with or without Interference.

And now Nimo, for the final time, if the Interference is so useless, why is it consistently being used by the best players of this game? And for the hindsight; I'm afraid you're not going to give a proper answer to this one.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 26, 2022 11:46 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 23:48, 26 Mar 2022.

@Hourglass
Nobody cares how good Interference is, it just feels wrong, in several different ways in fact.
Kinda like removing Galthran from the game, but that at least makes a little more sense.
But Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists are apparently still totally fine?! (Yes I know Logistics was nerfed in HotA, but Logistics was never a problem, Logistics specialists were. Maybe also Navigation specialists, especially Elmore!)

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