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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 191 pages long: 1 20 ... 40 41 42 43 44 ... 60 80 100 120 140 160 180 191 · «PREV / NEXT»
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted July 31, 2018 03:02 PM

Skills in vanilla and HotA are simple. This is complicated. Sounds WoGish.

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portus
portus


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2018 03:02 PM

I don't recall if I've ever shared these thoughts on Learning, but how about this:

Learning boosts the effectiveness of artifacts (regardless of getting a little extra Exp per level). I can't remember now the hierarchy of artifacts, but Basic level would boost the lesser ones, Advanced the medium ones and Expert the greater ones. I was even considering the need to have the specific artifact equipped for a certain amount of time in order to unlock its "secret" powers. A greater mastery in the skill would shorten the amount of time required.


The acquisition of this skill would be quite a tactical choice, depending on playing a map rich or scarce in artifacts. Also, you would have to make certain important choices about keeping an artifact equipped in order to maintain the unlocked powers, or make the classic swaps at the beginning/end of a turn.


As to Eagle eye, as (I believe it was) Maurice has stated several times before, the usefulness of the skill as it is heads for its own uselessness. Once you get all the spells (if you do), it's over for this skill. Some might say that it's the same with Scouting, but I don't think so. Even if the whole map has been charted, Scouting can grant further information about heroes and buildings, even from a longer distance. And if these bonuses haven't been implemented yet (I'm quite sure they have on one mod or another), they're reasonable to be added. They make sense.

In conclusion, I really believe there's no point in keeping Eagle eye mechanics as they are. Something else must be raised from its ashes. To me, it's the ability to keep enemy heroes from casting certain random spells in battle. Just an alternative I've thought a lot about for a year or so.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 31, 2018 04:08 PM

What about allowing Learning to boost the effects of other secondary skills (where applicable)?
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
posted July 31, 2018 06:56 PM

Learning improves other SS.
That would actually be a good idea.
Boost Offensive, or Sorcery by 15%. Meaning 15% from 30% would still be not that much but it's a start.
Could also give +1 to scout radius, or +2 more spell points with mysticism.

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portus
portus


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2018 08:34 PM

Interesting, but wouldn't that make Learning a must-have skill?
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Ssssshhhhhhhpp!! Ah! (crimson cloud and I'm gone)

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sulik
sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted July 31, 2018 08:59 PM

I think it's a good idea. Learning can be tweaked so that it will only improve certain skills to avoid being too good. For example, normally melee-oriented heroes would pick offence, while spellcasters would select Sorcery.
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted August 01, 2018 02:13 AM

Maurice said:
What about allowing Learning to boost the effects of other secondary skills (where applicable)?


This might work!

However, I think this would not have much do with the original Learning, so if they would go with this, I would suggest that the skill should rewritten, renamed and it should get a new icon aswell. You know, for the sake of clarity.

I might be overly cautious, but it could be a good idea to always line up the Expert Learning giving the same bonus that the boosted skill would give at the basic level. For example, Offence giving 10% more damage (40% total), Intelligence giving 25% more mana (125% total). This way, things mightnot get out of hand, and Learning not becoming another mandatory skill. I would very careful when giving a noticeable boost to a skill such as Logistics.

The following skills could easily be good candinates to receive a boost from Learning:

Archery (+10% dmg)
Armorer (+5% damage reduction)
Diplomacy (Reduces the cost of surrendering by another 20%)
Estates (+125 daily gold)
Intelligence (+25% more mana)
Logistics (+10% more walking)
Mysticism (+3, as it would need to scale, but c'mon, just buff this skill)
Navigation (+50% more sea movement, but that's kinda much)
Necromancy (+5 more skellies)
Offence (+10% more melee dmg)
Resistance (+10% further reduce enemy spell power)
Sorcery (+5%, but this is another skill that should be buffed)

Things that could be on the list:

All magic schools (could further reduce the mana usage, but I feel that it somewhat unnecesary, and possibly even problematic)
First Aid - Since no other war machines didn't made it to the list, I think it could be easier not adding it. Also, First aid is in a serious need of consideration anyways.
Scholar (maybe you could finally exchange lvl 5 spells? I'm not sure.)

These I find not suitable:

Eagle Eye (should be reworked entirely anyways)
Luck and Leadership (expert rank already gives the max possible amount)
Tactics (It could give +1 point, but how would it scale?)
Wisdom (Time to unlock those juicy level six spells! Oh, wait...)
Archery and Ballistics (can't scale in a way that it would make sense)
Scouting (same as tactics)
Pathfinding (same as Luck and leadership)

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted August 01, 2018 04:34 AM

Maurice said:
What about allowing Learning to boost the effects of other secondary skills (where applicable)?


I hate being the party pooper, but that can be really incoherent, thematically speaking. A learned barbarian can do more damage (his offense skill provides more % than a non-learned one's) than a barbarian who has not dedicated himself to this pursuit? It strikes me as absurd as saying that spell damage should be proportional to one's muscles, after all, spellcasters "throw" spells with their hands...

I will give my 2 cents too:
Spell school masteries no longer provide reduced cost for their respective spells, instead Learning does. Thematically, a learned mage knows more effective ways to cast spell, saving "energy" in the process.
Or
It could provide heroes with one more skill choice when they level up  . Thematically, this should be self-evident.
Or
Some sort of interaction with adventure map objects that relate to enlightenment: A hero with learning may forget one skill he has and replace it for a skill available at a university; swap some primary skill points when he visits a Library of Enlightenment; TEACHING the witch that lives in the hut a skill she doesn't know (for an extravagant sum);
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 01, 2018 10:09 AM

imagination is running rampant these days

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2018 11:16 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:17, 01 Aug 2018.

When we have such useless skills as Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid and Mysticism it's no wonder that people are looking for ways to improve them.
The skills above might do more harm than good, as they waste a skill slot, you could have used for Earth Magic, Logistics or another skill that does something actually useful.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 01, 2018 11:46 AM

@ Hourglass: I see no objection to having Learning only apply to a subset of secondary skills. In fact, I'd say that it would work better that way to make it a tactical choice - whether you start with Learning and get skills presented on level up that may or may not benefit from it, or if you get Learning offered later on and you might decide whether or not to take it based on the skills the Hero already has.

@ Gandalf:
Gandalf196 said:
I hate being the party pooper, but that can be really incoherent, thematically speaking. A learned barbarian can do more damage (his offense skill provides more % than a non-learned one's) than a barbarian who has not dedicated himself to this pursuit?


You have to keep in mind that the Learned Barbarian used up a Skill slot for Learning, whereas a non-Learned Barbarian has benefit of another Skill. You do sacrifice a Skill Slot to the Learning Skill which has no inherent bonus in and of itself, but only supports other Skills.

Quote:
It strikes me as absurd as saying that spell damage should be proportional to one's muscles, after all, spellcasters "throw" spells with their hands...


You'll have to elaborate on this one, because I have no idea what you mean with this.

Basically, though, the idea to have Learning be a support Skill for other skills is simply the concept that this Hero has paid closer detail to his studies and efforts to master certain other Skills and is able to squeeze just a bit more juice out of them than a Hero without Learning. This applies to all fields of expertise, whether it's about effectively swinging a blade or manipulating the forces of the aether that enable spell casting.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted August 01, 2018 01:31 PM

@ Gandalf:
Gandalf196 said:
I hate being the party pooper, but that can be really incoherent, thematically speaking. A learned barbarian can do more damage (his offense skill provides more % than a non-learned one's) than a barbarian who has not dedicated himself to this pursuit?


You have to keep in mind that the Learned Barbarian used up a Skill slot for Learning, whereas a non-Learned Barbarian has benefit of another Skill. You do sacrifice a Skill Slot to the Learning Skill which has no inherent bonus in and of itself, but only supports other Skills.

Quote:
It strikes me as absurd as saying that spell damage should be proportional to one's muscles, after all, spellcasters "throw" spells with their hands...


You'll have to elaborate on this one, because I have no idea what you mean with this.

Basically, though, the idea to have Learning be a support Skill for other skills is simply the concept that this Hero has paid closer detail to his studies and efforts to master certain other Skills and is able to squeeze just a bit more juice out of them than a Hero without Learning. This applies to all fields of expertise, whether it's about effectively swinging a blade or manipulating the forces of the aether that enable spell casting.


I am sorry if I wasn't clear enough. The way I see things, Learning is more of a mind (not necessarily arcane, though) than  a brawn skill. In contrast, archery, offence, zum beispiel, are skills acquired through practice it does not matter whether we see the hero as a general or a sort of "rpg character" whose power is reflected on its army, one does not master achery by studying zeno's arrow paradox, or differential equations. Ergo, in my point of view, combat and mind (or even worse, magic) skills are non-overlapping magisteria, that is to say one cannot influence the other and, therefore, learning cannot improve one's might prowess, quod erat demonstrandum.
As a side note: english is not my primary language, as you may have noticed. Even though I can communicate my ideas with it, sometimes, they do not sound as logical as they do in my native language. Thanks for the comprehension.
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sulik
sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted August 01, 2018 04:25 PM
Edited by sulik at 16:34, 01 Aug 2018.

I have made a poll regarding changes proposed for the learning skill at [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45305]http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45305[/url].
The changes in that poll are drawn from discussion of this thread.

Maybe some of you want to check it out and discuss the learning skill there. This thread is too crowded with many different ideas about different things.


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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 01, 2018 06:30 PM
Edited by Maurice at 18:30, 01 Aug 2018.

Gandalf196 said:
The way I see things, Learning is more of a mind (not necessarily arcane, though) than  a brawn skill. In contrast, archery, offence, zum beispiel, are skills acquired through practice it does not matter whether we see the hero as a general or a sort of "rpg character" whose power is reflected on its army, one does not master achery by studying zeno's arrow paradox, or differential equations.


Ahh, then I guess we have to agree to disagree. In martial practice there is most definately a learning aspect, if you ask me. You can pick up a blade and swing it around like a moron and never learn to land a blow, or you can try to learn from master swordsmen, who know everything about the balance of a blade, the various moves that a body can make aimed at maintaining one's own stability and defense while exploiting that of the enemy, etc ... I definitely see a learning aspect in that.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted August 01, 2018 06:52 PM
Edited by Gandalf196 at 18:53, 01 Aug 2018.

Maurice said:
Gandalf196 said:
The way I see things, Learning is more of a mind (not necessarily arcane, though) than  a brawn skill. In contrast, archery, offence, zum beispiel, are skills acquired through practice it does not matter whether we see the hero as a general or a sort of "rpg character" whose power is reflected on its army, one does not master achery by studying zeno's arrow paradox, or differential equations.


Ahh, then I guess we have to agree to disagree. In martial practice there is most definately a learning aspect, if you ask me. You can pick up a blade and swing it around like a moron and never learn to land a blow, or you can try to learn from master swordsmen, who know everything about the balance of a blade, the various moves that a body can make aimed at maintaining one's own stability and defense while exploiting that of the enemy, etc ... I definitely see a learning aspect in that.


I believe I understand your point of view, you lean more towards this, right?



I am more inclined to distinguish between mind and body for the purposes of this game (although, I recognize their interconnection in real life). But, I respect your opinion.
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orrinisthebest
orrinisthebest


Known Hero
posted August 01, 2018 07:26 PM

sulik said:
I have made a poll regarding changes proposed for the learning skill at http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45305.
The changes in that poll are drawn from discussion of this thread.

Maybe some of you want to check it out and discuss the learning skill there. This thread is too crowded with many different ideas about different things.



I encourage everyone to be active in pools. Majority's decision might not be the best one but it will definitely show what people do not want.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 01, 2018 07:57 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 19:57, 01 Aug 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
When we have such useless skills as Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid and Mysticism it's no wonder that people are looking for ways to improve them.
The skills above might do more harm than good, as they waste a skill slot, you could have used for Earth Magic, Logistics or another skill that does something actually useful.


Peasant is still a lvl 1 creature, regardless of your thinking it's useless or not

and so some things are better than others - it's a part of the game you have to try to deal with

you could start by not picking the skills you don't want

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2018 08:06 PM

Sorry, that does'nt work for me, I already improved Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism and Peasants myself, so yeah.
Peasants are not worthy to be called a level 1 unit, we can agree on -1 maybe.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 01, 2018 08:09 PM

lol okay

it makes for a perfect fodder though, and you get 25 of them

see how everyone sees it in different colours, even though we play the same game

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2018 08:14 PM

Yes and that's what makes it interesting, sooo many possibilities.
It would of course be nice if we (and HotA Crew) could agree on something to make those 4 skills go from "always useless" to "useful sometimes".

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