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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 100 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 ... 91 92 93 94 95 ... 100 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 20, 2019 07:45 PM
Edited by Galaad at 19:47, 20 Oct 2019.

@Weilan

You're referring to the old wog 3.58f which is indeed obsolete. Now is ERA, everything is optional. Wog has one of the best mods (imo) with Succession Wars. It has hundreds of mods you can choose, some you will like and the things you dislike you can easily avoid. There is even a "safeSod" mod which allows you to only profit from quality of life improvements (better UI lesser clics to do etc) with no modification from the original either visually or gameplay-wise. Wog is the most customizable version of the game.

One day someone did a Cove port for wog but it was redlighted by Hota team.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted October 20, 2019 09:21 PM

WoG 3.58f and ERA are much better than HotA. HotA is also aged version.

HotA team willn't take your idea.

A more professional proposal belongs Speed (fire) gives to one. What? Basic 3+ speed, Advanced 6+ speed and Expert 9+ speed. Then Fatigue (water) gives to one. What? Basic 50%, Advanced 75% and Expert 100%. And then Magic Mirror gives to one. How? Basic 25%, Advanced 50%, and Expert 100% also Resistance skill could get a 50% in Expert. Remember artifacts give +30%, it does a total of 80% trip to H4, when 3,5 version.

What then? You can create in WoG/ERA.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 20, 2019 10:27 PM

To say that WoG and ERA are 'better' than HotA is debatable. HotA is a singular game, you're either playing it or you're not, while WoG and ERA are heavily customisable, but everyone has their own preferred options, and might consider another persons preferred options less preferable than HotA.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 21, 2019 12:05 AM

I think they're both great, and we can add VCMI do the trinity.
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weilan
weilan

Tavern Dweller
posted October 21, 2019 12:32 AM

Galaad said:
I think they're both great, and we can add VCMI do the trinity.


VCMI seems like it's good, but their progress is very slow. I see it's something like ERA where they aim to expand the game and I respect both ERA and VCMI for what they are trying to accomplish. I even remember giving ERA a shot and realizing it's just not my thing.

For my needs, HotA is the best there is.

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Timmysoboy
Timmysoboy

Tavern Dweller
posted October 21, 2019 05:35 PM

monere said:
Timmysoboy said:
Otherwise I'm a big fan of the way mass spells work in H3, would rather not see the system outright changed.
you mean to tell me that the best spell in the game (mass slow) is fair to be a level 1 spell? Come on!


I'm telling you expert magic giving you access to mass spells is a big part of the flavor of the game.  If it's going to be nerfed, it should be done some other way.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 21, 2019 06:09 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:11, 21 Oct 2019.

So, are HotA devs actually reading this thread?

I finished the campaigns finally and I have a lot of feedback, lol.

I'm not sure if they care about the campaign though.

Ghost said:
WoG 3.58f and ERA are much better than HotA.


To me, WoG is a scrambled mess of unnecessary additions with absolutely no rules, making it extremely hard to find any sense in.

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Yuya2019
Yuya2019

Tavern Dweller
posted October 21, 2019 07:18 PM

weilan said:
VCMI seems like it's good, but their progress is very slow. I see it's something like ERA where they aim to expand the game and I respect both ERA and VCMI for what they are trying to accomplish. I even remember giving ERA a shot and realizing it's just not my thing.


Well aside from the fact that VCMI's AI is trash tier, mods have never been so easy to make and the installer is (imo) way better than ERA. Nowadays, customization is essential to every game since it allows players to have a variety of possible gameplays without forcing them to play in only one way. That's where HotA fails. But even though it's not my thing, I must admit that they're trying to add the most faithful content. However, I'm disappointed that they didn't wanted to revive Forge town and some of their creatures are.. meh!

Anyway, I feel like it just depends how you want to play the game. VCMI/ERA/WoG will fulfill your thirst of fun while HotA feeds the competitive players. For each of theses add-ons there are people working hard to keep the game alive and this is just beautiful.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 21, 2019 08:33 PM

Doomforge said:
To me, WoG is a scrambled mess of unnecessary additions with absolutely no rules, making it extremely hard to find any sense in.

It doesn't have any sense, it's a bunch of scripts from different people that often cross out each other. It doesn't mean you can't use them to create your own sense... I had a set of rules and scripts that would allow me to outmatch AI so much I could end the scenarios against a BAI with all custom options at their maximum (and that is a lot of bonus).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 21, 2019 08:59 PM

The whole sense of WoG is that you can change the game to your like, as you are given the tools for. Funny that we have to explain such obvious thing to a bunch of guys who keep whining in this thread for their ideas to be implemented. Makes sense yeah to criticize wog

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 21, 2019 11:03 PM

That does make multiplayer difficult though, since everyone has their own preferred settings.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 22, 2019 01:09 AM
Edited by Galaad at 01:10, 22 Oct 2019.

Doomforge said:
So, are HotA devs actually reading this thread?

I finished the campaigns finally and I have a lot of feedback, lol.

I'm not sure if they care about the campaign though.


I guess not the right thread for it (Hota vs Wog vs VCMI debate either too now that I think about it ) but in general I'm sure constructive feedback is always appreciated when work has been put into things. I say go for it
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Docent_Picolan
Docent_Picolan


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted October 22, 2019 04:47 AM

Quote:
So, are HotA devs actually reading this thread?

Yep.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 22, 2019 10:00 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:05, 22 Oct 2019.

MattII said:
That does make multiplayer difficult though, since everyone has their own preferred settings.


Even single player is a mess with "personal settings". Is beating a hard custom map on impossible "hard" at all with some WoG enhancements on? Not at all. Some factions have commanders (either improved or basic) that are basically so broken that they can win the game on their own.

You can't even exchange feedback after beating a map with people because you'd need to list your settings everytime & the person you're discussing with would have to know exactly how your changes affect difficulty. Which only a bunch of long-time WoG players would know.

I guess I just dislike setting my own rules. It makes me confused WTF am I playing.



Docent_Picolan said:
Quote:
So, are HotA devs actually reading this thread?

Yep.


Ah, fantastic. I will do a bigger thread will all my H3 experiences soon as soon as I finish the remaining two chronicles campaigns (thread is intended to be of comedic value so there will be some exaggeration there), but here are Hota campaign only things. My whole playback was on Impossible difficulty.

1. Typos - there's a lot. For instance, it actually shows "Terror or the deep" on the scoreboard. Some texts, like HOTA campaign mission 2, has typos/missing words on the animation screen.
2. Grammar - while most of the English text is OK, there is some dramatic drop of quality in "Horn of the Abyss" campaign, especially missions 2&3 suffer from this. The texts could use a native speaker/translator looking at them and correcting them. I guess not many people bothererd getting that far in the campaigns so you may not have received enough feedback on this.
3. Under the Jolly Roger - I don't have anything bad to say about this, it's a fairly simple and quick campaign, fun to play, nice introduction to the town.
4. Terror of the Deep - Mission 1 introduces the "rush or die" mentality of this campaign, but is still fair (takes a lot of time though - the difficulty on Insane is definitively there).

I assume a lot of players were brutalized by Mission 2? I'm all for difficulty and challenge (I played this on impossible after all), but I think this particular mission gets a lot of frustration thrown at the player, so much that many people will get stuck and cease playing. I am a veteran player and I still struggled a bit with the amount of perfection necessary to do a succesful rush against Green player. I'd risk saying you've given too much to the AI while restricting the player. Check this out:

- The player cannot go beyond Village hall and cannot develop tier 6 and tier 7 buildings. The AI isn't restricted this way. The lack of gold AND the lack of creatures means RUSH OR DIE (actually the missions 1-3 in this campaign are all rush or die missions, but this one in particular forces the rush on the player).
- the player cannot lose this one weak town, with a monolith two-way leading right next to it, which is another frustrating aspect.
- the only "rushable" AI is fortress (Green, IIRC), because rushing other towns will give you massive movement issues due to a lot map being covered in swamp; you need the native creatures.
- however the Fortress gets a ridiculous amount of free units and a hero with Ballistics and a blind spell, while the player is restricted from getting Blind spell himself. I don't think you can even get Cure without hiring a hero knowing Cure himself + scholaring, which takes too much gold on a map where you absolutely have to eliminate Green within 3rd week or lose the game.
- at my best attempt I had like 25 pirates, some sea witches and some fodder troops + 1 pop of serpent flies and basilisks again 42 Serpent Flies, over 20 Gorgons, almost 100 Lizard Warriors and over 15 wyverns. plus 100 gnolls and 25 basilisks. this is what the AI has in the second week on a hero with ballistics, and spamming blind. I'd say this is way too much freebies on AI that will not screw around and will quickly destroy your gate and towers. Whether this is winnable or not is almost exclusively based on how many Wyverns the AI gets from the Dragon Fly Hive; if the AI gets maximum (8) wyverns here, your chances of winning drastically decrease.
- this mission completely stands out due to infuriating nature of rush or die part; I'd say it should be definitively toned down. It doesn't need much; remove Expert ballistics from Alkin or remove the Dragon Fly Hive next to his castle and it's suddenly a lot more manageable.

Mission 3 - I heavily urge you to add a Hut of the Magi because the map is nearly impossible to blind play through, and a lot of people dislike having multiple playthroughs just to scout it and know that the crucial Red Bordermaster tent is hidden in a certain, not obvious place. Another VERY critical improvement: WARN players that Tark will carry over to the next scenario. I only knew to boost his stats/teach him spells because Elvin warned me he's your next main hero. This is very frustrating if you're not aware of it: mission 4 suddenly starts you with a weak hero with preselected skills and no spells.

Mission 4 is OK, assuming you knew to teach Tark some spells and give him boosts.

Mission 5 - my only complaint is that the Fortress AI is too weak. By this point of the game you probably have extremely powerful heroes with 20-30 allstats; the AI should have a lot more units because right now you can rush him 1st week and eliminate him almost instantly, reducing this to a player vs. map mission, without enemies.

Mission 6 - I actually found it OK, but if you intended it to be hard, you cannot allow players to get Armageddon's Blade because with AB you can repeatedly attack the final boss, cast armageddon and flee, turning him to a joke. I'd say - remove the Armageddon's Blade from this map.

5.Horn of the Abyss campaign - Mission 1, what I find questionable is giving players a summon earth elemental spell from the Pyramid (unless it is random? if so, you may want to ban it). You are aware that summon elemental spell on campaigns that allows 20-30 spellpower/knowledge completely breaks the difficulty? The AI cannot win against summon elementals with high SP/KL, and will lose even with armies 10-15 times bigger than player's unless it manages to kill the player off in his 1st turn. You may also balance this on a differnt level - make the player instantly lose if only summoned elementals remain on the battlefield because right now you can spam elementals ad infinitum, finally resurrect your last stack and win a battle with an army consisting legions of units.

Other than that, the mission was fairly fun, even if it took forever to finish.

Mission 2, like I said before, needs grammar/typo corrections. Other than that, there's a summon water elemental spell granted for the player in the town closest to him; the same as above applies, if you intend a very high difficulty final mission, you cannot give the player a summon elemental spell. I'd also recommend a hut of the magi - the map is huge and a player will not do well playing it for the first time.

Mission 3, you may want to change the garrisons leading to the upper portion of the map to anti-magical unless you remove Summon Elemental Spell because nothing stops the players from just breaking through them in 1st week.

The Final Mission - I'd recommend some changes so the mission is less annoying:

- add a hut of the magi and place eyes on territories owned by Blue AI and Tan AI so the player knows what to do instead of having to cheat with nwcwhatisthematrix or dedicating the first playthrough to learning the map. This should be a common practice for maps where you have to visit a border guard tent because looking for it if it's hidden/put into some obscure place is simply unnecessary annoyance. It should also highlight the place you put town portal scroll into because otherwise it's really hard to find.
- consider placing Boots of the Wayfarer near the player. This is because the Horn of the Abyss artifact produces Fanghams which will destroy your movement rate on the very part of the map you're expected to rush as soon as possible; this means the player needs to know in advance to learn Pathfinding. Giving an easier access to this artifact would make it less irritating - the AI has multiple towns and hires a lot of troops.
- consider making "the guardian" (that guards two prisons) a garrison instead. This is because you can rush orange player and the hero placed there will disappear once 7 days have passed (when Orange is removed from the game), giving people free Titans/Phoenixes.
- giving ALL enemy pre-generated heroes "town portal" really ruins the fun of guerilla warefare ; the AI will always defend its cities unless brute forced out of them. This makes it either frustratingly hard if the player is not prepared, or laughably easy if the player got a summon elemental spell. I could summon 220 earth elementals per cast at this point and beat all the AI heroes armed with nothing but some crap units to buy time. This lead to some unintended (I guess?) situations like me eliminating Orange in 2nd week and assembling power of the dragon fathers which was - I guess - intended for Gunnar... He can't stop the elementals.

Hope you'll enjoy the feedback. Cheers.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 22, 2019 05:16 PM

Do something about the Ballistics skill. For example give it a secondary effect, like Artillery has for Arrow Towers.

Ballistics feels extremely situational, because it only does something when you are the attacker in sieges.
I guess it's an okay skill for multiplayer or custom maps, but mostly it feels pretty useless against AI, as it charges right out of the gate anyway.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 22, 2019 05:40 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:42, 22 Oct 2019.

phoenix4ever said:
Do something about the Ballistics skill. For example give it a secondary effect, like Artillery has for Arrow Towers.

Ballistics feels extremely situational, because it only does something when you are the attacker in sieges.
I guess it's an okay skill for multiplayer or custom maps, but mostly it feels pretty useless against AI, as it charges right out of the gate anyway.


With the ballistics skill you get to act first before enemy hero & towers in a siege, disregarding your creatures' speed.

While the community, obsessed with playing Jeebus Cross over and over, doesn't value that, it is a very powerful hit and run tool.

it also allows you to start with a mass slow, no matter how fast the enemy is.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 22, 2019 05:57 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:58, 22 Oct 2019.

Yeah I know and I guess it makes it okay-ish as Stronghold or Tower (Yog and Theodorus) but not really as Rampart or Inferno. (Uland and Olema)
But currently I would never pick the skill intentionally.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 22, 2019 06:23 PM

Maybe Ballistics could be used defensively too: a Hero with Ballistics would be able to predict weak spots in his defense and fortify those. The result would be an effective increase in wall, tower and gate hitpoints while defending in a siege.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 22, 2019 06:38 PM

Nice idea Maurice.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 22, 2019 10:44 PM

You know, it always puzzled me why "Ballistics" affects the catapult, while "Artillery" affects the ballista. I would have thought it should be the other way around TBH.

Also, I would very much like the ability to control war machines without the skills, and just have the skills boost the machines' abilities, because I honestly don't see the point of needing a skill to control the things. If they act like units in some respects, they should act like them in all respects, including being controllable from the start, without a skill.

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