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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 06, 2020 01:00 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:27, 06 Jul 2020.
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fred79 said:
artu said:
The rubber and glue again, I see. Okie dokie. 
*holds up a mirror*
Lol, fred. You can’t hold up a mirror to that, it doesnt make any sense. I say something, you reply “no, that’s not me, that’s you” which I mock by using the childish idiom “I’m rubber and you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.” When you hold up a mirror to that, it would imply I was the one who said “no, that’s not me, that’s you” but I never did. And the irony in you “holding up a mirror” to me mocking your “rubber and glue” rhetoric is truly priceless. 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 06, 2020 01:24 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:27, 06 Jul 2020.
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blizz said:
The Christian Democrats of Europe post-WW2/post-Holocaust in the 20th century match fairly well with me, but they've more-or-less gone extinct and have been replaced with predators and sharks as that continent has gone into long-term decline and become more secularized and is no longer fully capable of being a leader in the world, or even a capable leader of itself for that matter.
This is an extremely flawed reasoning. Becoming more secularized was the thing that put Europe in leading position in the first place. And way before WW2. The “Christian” Democrats of post-WW2 were also strictly secular people and they did not govern according to religion. (And major powers of Europe at that time werent even catholhic, well, France was basically catholic but they are famous for their extreme secularism, or if we use their term instead, laicite. Mentioning this because it is your creed)
It really puzzles me how people lose all sanity regarding matters of religion, once they turn religious. There is absolutely no visible causality whatsoever between today’s success in politics and religion, actually, there is even corellation between religiousity in politics and backwardness. Yet, you can say something like “Europe declined because it secularized.” I guess, the decline began in 1648!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2020 03:46 AM |
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artu said:
it doesnt make any sense.
*holds up a mirror again*
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 06, 2020 04:15 AM |
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@artu:
I never said anything specifically about Catholics, although Catholics were a big part of it. Following the communist revolutions and the fascist takeovers, the coalitions of Christian Democrats post-WW2 / post-Holocaust were the drivers that worked on rebuilding the continent, restoring trans-Atlantic relationships, and creating the EU. Robert Schuman was declared a Servant of God, which is the first step in the process of becoming a canonized saint. The Church has for a long time been a glue to keep fighting factions within Europe in check to some degree and to create a sense of solidarity, but with that now absent, declining births, empty homes, mounting debt, more pleasure-based spending over building families and investments in human beings in general, and growing conflicts with immigrants who nonetheless are desperately needed to keep the machine going, there's not a ton of prospects for a bright future, at least not in west of the continent.
All of this is simultaneously happening while developing economies become more and more capable of out-competing them not only with cheap manufacturing but with a higher paying service economy as well. The EU is currently stumbling along with an overburdened bureaucracy and shouting down any Euroskeptics by calling them names in hopes that it will be enough to make them conform, and of course it isn't working because that's not how people tick. It just makes them madder and it provides validation for their fears. It's all very sad and very unfortunate to watch because the potential for unification and growth back in the 1960s was huge and it's all fizzling out into stagnation and in-fighting.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 06, 2020 08:50 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 08:54, 06 Jul 2020.
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I like to joke that EU started to decline the moment they incorporated Poland to its structure  We have a talent for messing up things, at least on the governing level.
But yeah jokes aside one of the biggest concerns for EU is that once a union now it falls apart because each player starts to focus rather on himself then others. The economic or immigration crisis doesn't help either. Now most countries not only have their internal strifes (labor strikes, cutbacks, raise of nationalism or discontent of minorities) but looks at the other with suspicion. And we have Brexit. There are also signs of Russia mingling because the weaker its "opponents" are, the better. There are even theories that Russia was behind Brexit cus they helped manipulate the media to direct British people into voting against staying.
USA also didn't help (and EU is still probably their biggest ally). Maybe they could've influenced Britain to stay in EU more? They are too focused on their own internal strifes and as Blizzardboy said, they are loosing the status of the main player on international level.
Btw the thread is starting to derail a bit
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 06, 2020 09:35 AM |
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Edited by artu at 09:36, 06 Jul 2020.
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@blizz
“The Church” hasnt been a glue to anything in Europe in the macro sense since the days of 16th century reform movements. The reason I picked the date 1648 was that it is the year that the treaty of Westphalia was signed. It is considered a turning stone in the history of Europe and secularization, since that is when they finally decided not to slaughter each other over differences in religion: There is no “the church,” there are churches. The rest of your complaints has nothing to with neither what I said nor declining of Christianity in general. Decreasing birth rates is not necessarily a bad thing considering where our relationship with the natural habitat is going. We as a species are considered the sixth mass extinction event. Yet, even if you consider it a bad thing, it has to with the modern birth control pill (1950’s), and other prevention measures becoming common, women rights (which you also seem to support) and them having careers. It also has to do with individual prefererces replacing traditional social roles but guess what, that is the whole point of a free society, isnt it. Pleasure based spending may be considered a bad thing arguably, if it’s overdone. But that is simply about modern capitalism promoting consumerism and it’s bound to happen whether there is religion or not since the capitalist motivation is always the growth of the market. Corporations consider themselves unsuccessful if they dont sell more this year than they did last year. How on earth do you think that is going to continue if people dont spend more? Do you think the process was/is any different in non-christian countries? It isnt. You really used to be a lot sharper before all this catholic preaching.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JoonasTo
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 06, 2020 10:00 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 10:00, 06 Jul 2020.
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@Blob:
Completely off-topic but Britain leaving EU is both catastrophic and the best thing to happen to EU.
From a short-term point of view it's a huge loss of economic, political, diplomatic and militaric power. But it's also a loss of one of the most critical members of the Union that was fighting against all the policies that would lead to strengthening the union as a whole.
From a long-term point of view it's going to enable relatively rapid progression inside EU for a stronger union and more EU wide responsibility, which we can already see happening right now and for some time before. The other side of the view is that someone has to rise up to fill the vacuum left by UK. Germany doesn't have the military power, or the will to develop it, to match France like UK did. France doesn't have the economic power or the capability to develop it to match Germany like UK did. Italy isn't strong enough and it's still in a bit off an economic mess. Spain is all kinds of lacking. Poland is the next in line but they have their political issues weighing them down.
In a way this is perfect. France needs Germany and Germany needs France so they have to work together. Together there doesn't exist a coalition that could put their weight together and oppose them(strongly enough). This will inevitably lead to speedy progress(as far as EU is concerned.) Another balancing situation is the Russian/German interdepency. The more they need each other, the less likely it is for them to actively oppose each other. We already saw their interests cross in Ukraine and it resulted in a Russian Invasion of Ukraine with nothing more than a slap to the wrist from EU. Every EU country bordering Russia aside from Finland was striving for a tougher response but with Middle-Europe solidly linked with Russia it didn't go anywhere and the conflict didn't escalate. Sucks for Ukraine, but great for Russia/EU. It also put the final lid on the spreading of EU east. Turkey was already frozen in place but now the eastwards expansion is fully fixed and we know with whom we are working with. There are still some Balkan countries in line for membership but they aren't big enough to sway the internal power structure.
Corona arrived at the most oppotune time to prove that this new EU works together. This could become a catalyst to leapfrog the union a decade or two in related economic and political instruments.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 06, 2020 11:25 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:35, 06 Jul 2020.
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We will see.
I hope those leading countries won't be eaten from inside out and sort out their problems. While Poland has the potential and economic power for growth and even be a leading country, I'm afraid our current government holds us back (a lot of good was done in past few years but now it's declining imo). They seem to have this mentality of "when EU tells us to do something they are attacking our independence. We know better!". Yet at the same time they happily grab subventions. This is very egoistic as EU is a union so everyone should cope, but our government is heavily populist. They have lead to a situation when we are mostly neglected (like a naughty child) and loose votes 27:1. They press on the rhetoric, while EU can do only so much: they can provide guidelines, demand cooperation and threaten to take some subventions away, but cannot directly influence a countries political integrity. Our ongoing juridical reform is a joke, our minister of justice HATES lawyers because of the problems he had with completing his exams. The guy is both a minster and general prosecutor in one person. You see how dangerous he his? He has absolute power and basically decides who is nominated and not, and plants his supporters, opportunists or people who yield to him as chairmans of regional courts etc. People who are loyal to the ruling party. He is hateful and uses the populace general discontent with juridical system to further enforce his reforms because "he is cleaning up the communist courts", but in practice he removed every opposition. Some say he is currently the most influential person in the government. Yet when the reforms were ongoing EU didn't do much about it, they only enforced holding off with one reform and that's it...
Euro-sceptism is still strong in our mentality. It's hard to explain but although many people benefit from EU resources (surcharges) they still think of EU as "oppressors" as in "they are forcing their own values onto us". Unfortunately it seems that almost all this good work for integration was lost in recent years and populism still holds strong...
I wouldn't even be surprised if, as a last ditch effort to hold their power and keep everything the way they want (if EU will be pressing for changes for example), our government decided to leave the EU (fortunately they still need EU money).
PS: Sorry for still being offtop, I won't continue this. Just wanted to show we have a "privilaged class" in Poland: ruling government and their voters...
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 08, 2020 04:36 PM |
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@Artu
What are you babbling about?
Europe was put back together after the war by coalitions of Christian Democrats. The EU was founded by Christian Democrats. This is basic stuff. They weren't perfect but that is that.
And yes, they were actual Christians at the time; it wasn't a misnomer for a washed-up bureaucrat with a short fuse and a checkbook that bounces.
I don't understand people's obsession with replacing fact with fiction. It is so dishonest and kiddish.
Edit. And that is problem number 1 with capitalism. It hijacks the brain's reward system until a person becomes their own worst enemy.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2020 05:45 PM |
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We’re having a little reading comprehension problem, huh, bb? Secular doesnt necassarily mean non-religious. You spoke as if the secularization in Europe is a problem and praised post-WW2 Era when the fact is, the people you speak of were secular people applying secular policies themselves. I never claimed they were Buddhists. Their politics or mid 20th century European politics in general has nothing specific to do with Christianity though.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 08, 2020 07:22 PM |
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No, I don't mean it in that sense of the word. I mean the gradual disappearance of religion from public life, including political figures.
Christian countries have always been secular, even in the Middle Ages, with the possible exception of the Papal States but that was a unique situation to prevent the Vatican from becoming too heavily influenced by the surrounding secular authorities. It's the same reason Vatican City remains its own nation-state instead of a part of Italy. Italy has gone through its own waves of nationalism, fascism, communism, anti-clericalism, etc., and secular authorities are vulnerable to ever-shifting emotional fashions in morality. They can't be fully trusted to be objective. Contemporary people can become confused and develop a malformed conscience because of peer pressure, so there needs to be a buffer between the Church and the state or else the Church nosedives with the rest. i.e. the protestant churches of Europe are stuck in that situation and have been for quite some time. USA is 20 years or so behind W Europe but the protestant churches here have the same problem.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2020 08:32 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:33, 09 Jul 2020.
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No, they havent always been secular in any sense of the word. There was a time religion dominated the law, foreign policy (to a degree), public norms, art, pretty much every social aspect of life.
The gradual disappearance of religion (as in Christianity) from public life is inevitable because all religions have a shelf life and Abrahamic ones are about to come to an end, it is a gradual process like you say, going back to days of the Enligtenment. That is not going to change, learn to live with it. Just like farmers living under a king cant go back to animism, modern urban people cant go back to “be fruitful and multiply because our lord says so.” The new “religions” are secular ones like human rights, liberalism, equality, nationalism etc... You cant reverse the clock, it is as simple as that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 08, 2020 08:38 PM |
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I realize you're not a fan of Abrahamic religions in particular but they're not ending... they're actually growing. So I dont know where this "about to end" idea is coming from. Christianity is dying in Europe but Europe in general is turning into a geriatric ward.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2020 08:56 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:03, 08 Jul 2020.
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Dont look at the zig zags of a few decades and look at the bigger picture. In the developed world, they lost their domination of law, their domination on production of knowledge, their inspiration on the intellectual elite and now not just the elite but most educated people are non-religious or only religious in the “it’s my cultural heritage” sense, not in any devoted sense. Today Abrahamic religions only exist in politics when trying to get vote from masses. They determine nothing else. And even in this, they come after the economy and other stuff.
The reason you think they are growing is because the religous portion of the population are the ones who make the most kids but not all of their kids will follow their path, if you think in terms of centuries, the number of non-religious people multiply with a speed like never ever seen before. And that is inevitable because both the cosmology and the social norms Abrahamic religions present is way too old to adjust to our times and knowledge anymore. They are not growing, they are playing the extra time.
Same thing with the developing world, only slower. Besides, no religion that is basically a “local culture” can determine the language of tomorrow anyway. It is simply not the world or demographics we live in anymore. Modern societies are too eclectic to bond over Christianity or Islam or Hinduism... you need something much more universal. The cultural heritage can only remain symbolically, like the monarchy in UK with its red guards.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 11, 2020 12:50 PM |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2020 05:10 PM |
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Yea, Shapiro's a different kind of beast, but holy, does Jordan Peterson know how to land a point. I'm really interested in this guy right now. Watching his videos on different subjects, including white privilege and transgender and stuff. His attitude towards debating is pretty exemplar.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 18, 2020 11:48 AM |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 18, 2020 01:44 PM |
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This is the first time in my life I'm really proud of being Portuguese. We found the solution for the melanin problem, it's called crossbreeding... Make sex, not war.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
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posted July 20, 2020 04:37 PM |
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Ethnic groups intermingling can provide some relief from racial tensions, but since prejudice towards people who are different from us is ingrained into us as a survival mechanism, it is always going to be something that requires introspection and vigilance. I.e. prejudice is not going to magically disappear at a certain point. Also, we have a tendency to notice smaller and smaller differences. So even with widespread interbreeding people can still create an 'us' and 'them' mentality
Spain and Portugal were pretty good at interbreeding with other ethnic groups (they were already accustomed for centuries to interbreeding with N Africans as they reclaimed their territory from them) whereas England was more isolated and more openly racist, but the former Spanish and Portuguese colonies still grapple with racial issues.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2020 07:25 PM |
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I was joking, at least to a point.
Of course, there will always be enough difference between groups to allow discrimination. Just think that we and the spanish had a centuries long rivalry and yet Portugal was born from the whim of a spoiled brat with no ties to the local population. (yeah! I'm everything but a patriot...)
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This thread is pages long: 
