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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 04:48 PM |
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It's not censure. Censure is, if someone controls an outlet and it's allowed to publish only what is deemed "correct" or has to publish what is ordered to be published.
Which "people" are coming from the war-front and reporting that where?
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Salamandre
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posted May 11, 2022 04:54 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 05:59 PM |
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The English subtitles are a mess, so I can't say much about it.
Still, one guy claiming something isn't really convincing, especially when you don't know who the guy is, what his agenda is, if any, and whether it's true what he claims.
But let's get this right. We have (neo) nazis in Germany. A lot of them. Actually, there are some in more or less all European countries and the US. Is that a good reason for ANY country, to attack these countries?
I don't think so.
And this war is taking place on Ukrainian territory, so it's clear that UKRAINIANS are victims of any action. If Ukrainian artillery misfires they will hit something in their own country. However, the Ukrainians aren't executing their own people - that seems to be a Russian thing.
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Salamandre
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posted May 11, 2022 06:20 PM |
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That was my point, first you ban or block all russian sources then all you have to do is dismiss as "one guy reporting" everything challenging the main narrative. Because there is no option left other than individual reporting, from people being on war-front.
Then you wonder why trust in medias is below 30%. That's why.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 11, 2022 06:27 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The English subtitles are a mess, so I can't say much about it.
Still, one guy claiming something isn't really convincing, especially when you don't know who the guy is, what his agenda is, if any, and whether it's true what he claims.
But let's get this right. We have (neo) nazis in Germany. A lot of them. Actually, there are some in more or less all European countries and the US. Is that a good reason for ANY country, to attack these countries?
I don't think so.
And this war is taking place on Ukrainian territory, so it's clear that UKRAINIANS are victims of any action. If Ukrainian artillery misfires they will hit something in their own country. However, the Ukrainians aren't executing their own people - that seems to be a Russian thing.
QFT. Or should I say quoted for QP!
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 08:56 PM |
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Salamandre said:
That was my point, first you ban or block all russian sources then all you have to do is dismiss as "one guy reporting" everything challenging the main narrative. Because there is no option left other than individual reporting, from people being on war-front.
Then you wonder why trust in medias is below 30%. That's why.
They didn't block ALL Russian sources, only the OFFICIAL ones. Two, actually. So your point is moot.
Then - NO ONE would listen to the official Russian foghorns. Nor is anyone actually believing everything Ukraine reports. In my country, when it comes to the war, the media relate what the Russians say and what the Ukrainians say and that BOTH things cannot be verified.
And this one guy? In Germany there are a lot of people who demonstrate FOR Putin - the same people that demonstrated against covid vaccinations, masks, lockdowns and whatnot.
THEY are the Nazis.
Don't you think that if there currently is a fascist country, a nazi-lookalike, then it's Russia with Führer Putin? I mean, that is a fitting agenda. Or why else would the Nazis of Europe be all PRO-Putin, if he was ANTI-Nazi?
Makes no sense, right?
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Salamandre
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posted May 11, 2022 09:01 PM |
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Come on, your definition of what is a Nazi - basically everyone disagreeing with you, is not foolproof.
So, excuse my french for not taking those claims seriously.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 09:16 PM |
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It's not my definition. And basically everyone is agreeing with me - everyone not leaning to them, that is ...
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Salamandre
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posted May 11, 2022 09:37 PM |
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If you apply that definition to your previous comment, and also to Putin, nothing matches. So is as I said, for you Nazis are all the ones who disagree with you, on masks, on Covid, on vaccinations, on lockdowns, on Ukraine war and "whatnot". You said it, not me
And explain me how that matches to Putin, you just take some random element from definition but Nazism was about all elements tied together. Is he antisemitic? white nationalist? He denies holocaust? Displays nazi symbols? Where he proved being racist, ultra-nationalist? Homophobic? Is he a nazi because he started a war? Then all the people we worship within history books were nazis. Then what's the difference between Hitler and let's say, Napoleon?
When you can respond to all these by positive, then there is Nazism. The use of the term became a joke today, and thanks to you.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 10:04 PM |
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First of all, try to inform yourself. There is an extreme right movement that uses today's controversial issues to destabilize the state they despise. So they jump on every "anti"-train. They have infiltrated the anti-vax/anti Covid movement, they currently disturb election events and they organize pro-Putin demonstrations. It's tactic. It's not that they "disagree" or "agree" in any meaningful sense, they are just jumping on every confrontational train they can find.
That's nothing really new, mind you.
Then there is Russia. Is Russia a nazi country? No. There will never be another one. But Russia combines a lot of elements that Nazi Germany and fascist Italy had in common.
You don't think so?
Is Russia a democracy? What about human rights in Russia? Freedom of opinion? Freedom of press? Freedom of sexuality? Gulags?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 11, 2022 10:11 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Still, one guy claiming something isn't really convincing, especially when you don't know who the guy is, what his agenda is, if any, and whether it's true what he claims.
I didn't even watch the video but from the title I think I know what he says.
It's very easy to verify, go on goregrish, thenyc and such websites, you will find videos of Azov and what they do, even to Ukrainians. Heck, even on Twitter you can see some scenes similar to what ISIS does. But the really horrible stuff is on the aforementioned obscure websites, in the sewers of the web. Azov is no joke.
That said, I agree that Ukraine is the victim, Russia is the attacker and that's evidently indisputable fact. Even if USA/NATO has seriously no lessons to give.
A few thousands of neonazis is not sufficient to bomb cities and the casualties that goes with it, that we agree, but saying stuff like "Nazis are in Moscow not in Kiev" is just blinding yourself. There is in both countries, and they both do atrocious things, as that's what nazis do.
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Salamandre
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posted May 11, 2022 10:29 PM |
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@JJ
I see nothing in your comment but innuendos about these people being fascists.
Let's take Covid, why someone being antivax would necessarily be "extreme-right"? Isn't the left the most obsessed and vocal about "my body, my choice"?!
And you know who is refusing elections results in France and destroying everything around? The extreme-left, precisely.
And why a pro-Putin demonstration is a proof of Nazism or even extreme-right? Was Time magazine fascist leaning when they named Putin "Man of the Year"? Was France Nazi when they decorated Putin with Grand-Croix de la Légion d'honneur, the highest possible reward in France?
No, Russia is not a democracy in the sense France and Germany are, why should they? You think our system is the best, they don't. They elected Putin, they choose their political apparatus. Does that mean Russia is a bloody dictatorship? No, otherwise there would be millions of Russian migrants knocking at EU doors. Our global perception of Russia and China specifics political systems is all biased and ignorant of what they place first: patriotism, spirituality, rootedness in history, respect for authority, adherence to heteronormative and patriarchal ideals of family and gender.
Time will say who is right, but seeing how things evolve on both sides I don't put my money on us, that's for sure.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 10:29 PM |
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It's a difference whether the Nazis rule or ehether they are a small minority with a stronghold. EVERY country (more or less) has those. I mean, look at the US.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 10:30 PM |
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Salamandre said:
@JJ
. They elected Putin, they choose their political apparatus.
Yup. Same as in Germany 1933.
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Salamandre
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posted May 11, 2022 10:33 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2022 10:37 PM |
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Yes, I think so.
And you should read my post again. They are not anti-this or anti-that. They just jump on these trains to gain traction.
Example: There is an anti-vax, anti-lockdown movement who protest. The ultra-right infiltrates and radicalizes (wnti-vax or not, doesn't matter).
So they take advantage of genuine movements. Clear?
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AlexSpl
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posted May 12, 2022 02:44 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 02:47, 12 May 2022.
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There are no good solutions to this conflict. As to any conflict. Both with bruises but from now BFF  But countries are not children. And bruises are not lives. I don't believe you can make people happy through their sufferings. Russia should have been developing its economy rather than destroying it. If NATO is an enemy, why to not fortificate borders to that extent when any thought of invasion would punish the head where it was born. No, Russia preferred to be an aggressor. A country who can allow itself a defensive stance. This is a main problem, I think. I don't see how this conflict may end to satisfy both Russia and the world. But, in the first place, it should have never been started. Not by Russia.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 09:28 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 09:36, 12 May 2022.
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Like it is only JJ who sees the resemblance. Russia is mirroring the fascism and tyranny of World War Two Nazis in its invasion of Ukraine
- Defence Secretary of UK Ben Wallace
Mr Wallace pointed to attacks on civilians, the targeting of women and children and instances of sexual violence. He said all professional soldiers "should be appalled" at the Russian army's behaviour.
And he is a conservative FYI.
Edit: US is giving extra 40 billion in aid to Ukraine, wow that is so much more than I imagined. Amazing!
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fred79
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posted May 12, 2022 10:14 AM |
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Minion said:
US is giving extra 40 billion in aid to Ukraine, wow that is so much more than I imagined. Amazing!
it certainly is amazing, considering that ukraine isn't part of nato. oh, wait? what similarity do i see? the president is jewish. and where have we also given billions to a nation before, while spurning it's own citizens? that's right, israel. certainly, just a coincidence. it's not like the U.S. needs that money now, with the inflation, destruction of food processing plants, and whatnot. it's not like this is a orchestrated by the same globalist scumbags in bed together, that even started this conflict. noooo...
just pay attention to the surface value of things, that make you feel emotions. certainly, you cannot be infallible, if you keep reacting without thinking first. certainly, you're being told everything you need to know. like with the "vaccines", right?
simpletons.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 10:14 AM |
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Minion said:
The relationship will not normalize, even if peace is achieved. Russia can sell it's oil to others, we won't tolerate a raping, pillaging totalitarian neighbour. We tried being nice, building more pipelines to integrate Russia more into our economy.
How "nice" are you if all the last years you have been jumping and shouting "Russians to the gallows" ? (and this was before Crimea was taken from you) ? And you did not build anything, you only used what was built before you in the USSR (independent Ukraine is not capable of even one tenth of what the Ukrainian SSR could).
Useless country, useless generation. Why is the generation useless?
- because he speaks nonsense, does not understand elementary things, is not able to bear responsibility for his words and deeds.
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This thread is pages long: 
