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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 11:38 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 11:39, 16 May 2022.
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Speaking about Nazis in Ukraine at this time is nothing more than a ridiculous distraction, mostly done by people who can't defend the brutal invasion so they rather not talk about it.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 12:05 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 12:17, 16 May 2022.
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JollyJoker said:
He hasn't got a point because there are extreme right-wing parties all over the place in Europe, in France as well as in Germany. And let's not forget that the Azov regiment is the result of the Russian attack in 2014. Since it's foundation it has become part of the regular army and has become less "nazi". Show me an army, ANY army that doesn't have extreme right-wing nationalist elements, especially after an attack on that country.
The question isn't always what people say so much than what they do. Wouldn't the JEWS be the first, both the Ukrainian as well as Israel who'd cut ties, if there was a serious problem?
Thank you JJ, this is exactly what I meant with my small story, that story could happen in any other country, had it been attacked by another country. The reason why Azov regiment was formed in the first place is because of Russian attack in 2014. The reason why Biletskyi became MP is also because of Russian attack. Both parliament and Azov became less "nazi" later on if you want to say that. Sal's claim that only in Ukraine white nationalists were MPs is also false. Same with far-right fighters, similarly white nationalists even fight on Russian side for example in this same war, i.e. Russian Imperial Movement. So honestly, I don't see any point. Are there any other facts that support the idea that Ukraine has a real nazism problem?
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 12:44 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 12:45, 16 May 2022.
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@Sal and @Galaad
An update from your favorite nazi fact-checker in your language 
https://www.stopfake.org/fr/comment-le-francais-adrien-bocquet-blanchit-les-crimes-russes-a-boutcha/
If you are lazy to read, the main idea here. Adrien claims he was 16 days in Ukraine, he also claims he returned at the end of April. So according to Adrien, he went to Ukraine in mid-April. Then he also claimed he saw Azov atrocities in Bucha. But Russians left Bucha on April 1st. So there were no wounded and killed and POWs when he was there. Can we officially stop calling Adrien a random guy and instead start calling him a liar now?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 16, 2022 02:02 PM |
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Who is fact-checking the ukrainian fact-checker?
And sorry to point the obvious, the fact that Russian army left Bucha the first of April doesn't invalidate the probability that Russian war prisoners were transported to Bucha later. Adrien brings also an important point, which is plain valid, how comes that every missed artillery shot which ends killing civilians is always labeled as Russian? Are ukrainian artillery crew members some modern Lucky Luke version or what.
So far, we know nothing for sure, any evidence will probably come after long investigations from independent sources. Also a journalist as Bonnel then an army professional as Bocquet should be considered as independent unless you have a proof they are some Trojan of Russian propaganda. The only "proof" I read here was you using Wikipedia which accused Bonnel of reporting her experience on a conservative french media, thus it must be "Putin's voice".
Last but not least, she wanted to give voice to both sides but was then banned from operating in Ukraine. Who's to blame then.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 16, 2022 02:03 PM |
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 02:35 PM |
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I'm fine calling them independent liars if you want.
You live in a very funny world, desperately trying to defend people who got caught lying. First, you say Adrien never said he was in Bucha, then you say there's the probability that POWs were transported to Bucha. I guess transported to show them to Adrien, why else? That is just ridiculous. And that's not the only issue in what Adrien says.
And when you say who is fact-checking the ukrainian fact-checker, my answer is that it could be YOU. You see, when you posted that video of Adrien, I fact-checked it personally before StopFake did it, and I have already sent a list of what did not make sense to me last week (which you ignored). So what's stopping you from trying to read what StopFake publishes and outline what does not make sense? Can you find something? Or is it easier to say that you don't trust them because they are Ukrainians? By the way, even not all of them are Ukrainians, there are French and Dutch in StopFake supervisory board, can we call them independent now, lol?
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Pol
Known Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 02:35 PM |
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Are ukrainian artillery crew members some modern Lucky Luke version or what.
~Salamander
I will take liberty to answer this one part of your claim. Ukranian artillery see where is does shoot, with precision on meters. This is honor of Musk's satelliets and also help of "West" eyes - meaning satellites and also drones. Ofc fact, that russian soldiers prefer to call from (stolen) UA sims, also helps.
Not only they are so precise, they can also fire within 30 sec after request.
Which makes them at the moment the best artillery in the world. (USA is slower.)
Whereas russian pilots seems in need to use mobile with GPS (with West tech) to know where they are.
The difference is abysmal. And there are no doubts about Bucha overall. Russian units did that and will be prosecuted by law, if that will be possible. There are satellite records.
You probably remember as UA called for "Closing the Air", that couldn't happen as, nobody has force to do it. But to get here eyes, data coverage and rocket defense, yes, that happened. UA rule its Air even, if it cannot oust enemy rockets, planes or drones.
It's like combination of Cover of Darkness and Observation in HoMM3, flaggable only by one player.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 02:49 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 14:52, 16 May 2022.
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In fact, I agree that there's a good chance that many civilians died because of Ukrainian artillery fire. And, by the way, hold that thought when Anne Bonnel tells you next time that Ukrainians bombed Donbass for 8 years, similarly the artillery fire was from both sides.
The question is whether any of the civilians died because of aimed artillery fire at them or accidentally. I doubt that there are cases when Ukrainians deliberately aimed at civilians since the beginning of this invasion, and I do know plenty of cases when Russians aimed at civilian infrastructure.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted May 16, 2022 02:55 PM |
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Pol said:
It's like combination of Cover of Darkness and Observation in HoMM3, flaggable only by one player.
Nice try. Reality is however different.
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted May 16, 2022 02:59 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Pol said:
It's like combination of Cover of Darkness and Observation in HoMM3, flaggable only by one player.
Nice try. Reality is however different.
It's fact. As I said, I tried to explain only one part of your question. Linking me to article, which I'm forbidden to read ofc end the discussion.
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Salamandre
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posted May 16, 2022 03:04 PM |
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The article demonstrates that there is no magical system, even in best world army which is US, which eliminates the collateral damage. Beside, you have not provide a single proof that Musk satellites allow 100% clean war, but instead used our beloved video game to emphasize the argument.
End of discussion indeed.
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted May 16, 2022 03:30 PM |
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Salamandre said:
The article demonstrates that there is no magical system, even in best world army which is US, which eliminates the collateral damage. Beside, "you have not provide a single proof that Musk satellites allow 100% clean war", but instead used our beloved video game to emphasize the argument.
End of discussion indeed.
Ah, so the inaccessible article wasn't essential argument. Please re-read your reply, especially the emphasized part and stop claiming what I wanted to say. I don't need your claims instead what I said. Ever!
If your claim is, that every artillery is having collateral damage, then there's no doubt about it. Point is in how much. And UA artilerry collateral damage is marginal in comparison to russia artillery. This is evident from every image.
So, it's not Lucky Luke but much higher precision.
PS I don't know the percentages, but my speculation is that it can be for UA 90% and for RU 40% precision. Whatever the real numbers are, the difference is abysmal and visible.
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Salamandre
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posted May 16, 2022 03:50 PM |
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Adrien Bocquet's argument was not about blind shots but about dysfunctional shots, bad calibrated shots and such, him being a professional military so speaking from experience. Then you have the possibility that civilians are used as shield, to manipulate general opinion and emotions, that's a process people always used in wars.
The bottom is - to make it clear, you want to bash Russia for invading Ukraine, be my guest.
You want to make me acknowledge Russia is the worst people in history because you heard it on Radio USA or Radio Ukraine, bring solid proofs, I see none but uncontended hate from one side. Wars were always ugly and I see no notable difference in this conflict.
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Pol
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posted May 16, 2022 04:25 PM |
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Quote:
Adrien Bocquet's argument was not about blind shots but about dysfunctional shots, bad calibrated shots and such, him being a professional military so speaking from experience. Then you have the possibility that civilians are used as shield, to manipulate general opinion and emotions, that's a process people always used in wars.
Considering what is known, this doesn't give much sense, as these "habits" are known to be exhibited from russian armies.
I'm mostly trying to outline, how much these things changed. And why UA artillery is superior to RU. Or even to USA atm (at some aspects).
Like this would be the only thing which changed ..but it's not.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 04:27 PM |
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Russia has lost around a third of the ground forces it deployed to Ukraine and its offensive in the Donbas region according to British military intelligence. That is insane by any metric, how incompetent is the Russian military exactly? The failed attempt to take Kiev probably plays a part.
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Salamandre
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posted May 16, 2022 05:20 PM |
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Russia has 150 000 military forces in Ukraine. Ukraine forces, after full mobilization, went up to 500 000 soldiers (900 000 potentially). Add to that modern military material sent by Nato.
I don't know where you read that Russia wanted to take Kiev, one could wonder why Putin sent a such tiny force if he wanted to conquer all up to Yellowstone National Park, seriously.
About loses, difficult to know the truth, each source claims the opposite. But if is true that they lost one third, it suggests they are very careful into avoiding civilian deaths, otherwise they would have just bombed the hell out of everyone before touching ground. Taking example on what US did in Iraq.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 16, 2022 06:40 PM |
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I haven't got a clue what purpose this discussion serves.
Russia started an armed move in 2014 and decided to go all out in 2021 - took their time to prepare the move, but everyone could see what the troop concentration was all about.
US intelligence warned that Putin would attack right after the conclusion of the Olympic Games, whereas Europe thought, well, never.
US intelligence was right and Russia attacked, directly after "recognizing" independence of the new Donbass states. Their goal was clear as well - remove the government of the Ukraine, install a puppet regime and create a second Belarus with Ukraine.
That didn't work. Ukraine resists. Everything that happens in victims is on Russia - it's THEIR war. That's it. There are no justifications or excuses.
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted May 16, 2022 06:45 PM |
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`Careful`, maybe in russian sense from middle age. Russians don't have army trained and equipped for special operations. That was clear for a long time and it did not miraculously changed because of russian PR.
So, this story about taking care about civilians, is ridiculous - in comparison to 21th century standards.
Russians don't care about their own soldiers or civilians death and even less for UA. They show complete disdain for life.
Ofc, they are `taking care` - otherwise it would be even worse - with UA being flattened. And whole world considering them for a souless monsters. Not any signs of support even from China or India.
Perhaps it would be much better, if you won't use this argument. It's pretty much deranged.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 08:24 PM |
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With crude and all other major resources at these levels, Putin can afford to pay Russians to have five babies each middle-eastern style, in 50 years they will have a billion people, Indians would have jumped into the sea to avoid the heat, and even without the old republics they would literally rule the world.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 16, 2022 10:22 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:38, 16 May 2022.
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JollyJoker said:
He hasn't got a point because there are extreme right-wing parties all over the place in Europe, in France as well as in Germany.
From their respective wiki pages
Quote:
The Special Operations Detachment "Azov" ,also known as the Azov Regiment and the Azov Battalion, is a neo-Nazi unit of the National Guard of Ukraine based in Mariupol in the coastal region of the Sea of Azov, from where it derives its name.
Quote:
The National Rally (French: Rassemblement national, until 2018 known as the National Front, is a French nationalist and far-right political party in France. It is an anti-immigration party, advocating significant cuts to legal immigration and protection of French identity, and stricter control of illegal immigration, and has opposed the European Union (EU) and its related organisations. It also supports French economic interventionism and protectionism, as well as a zero tolerance approach towards law and order.
It's one thing to be an anti-immigration party, it's another to be a neo-nazi unit of the National Guard.
Quote:
The question isn't always what people say so much than what they do. Wouldn't the JEWS be the first, both the Ukrainian as well as Israel who'd cut ties, if there was a serious problem?
That would make sense.
Minion said:
Speaking about Nazis in Ukraine at this time is nothing more than a ridiculous distraction, mostly done by people who can't defend the brutal invasion so they rather not talk about it.
I haven't read all posts in the thread but for the last couple of pages I've seen no one defending Russia's invasion, on the contrary I've seen everyone condemning it. Propaganda is inevitable in the discussion it's mostly all the info we got.
ihor said:
An update from your favorite nazi fact-checker in your language
Lol, I don't mind at all! 
I always look for both sides.
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This thread is pages long: 
