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szilellis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 25, 2013 11:23 AM |
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Hippox89 said:
Wouldn't level 1 creatures with a specialty hero actually be stronger comparatively to level 6 creatures (with specialty, too) in terms of creature number growth and at higher hero levels?
350%? Maybe true if it was a 1:1 creature comparison.
A 5% increase to a higher average damage is obviously going to be a higher increase compared to a lower average damage, but that's a 1:1 creature comparison and not with creature growth taken into account.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this. Maths is not my best. 
create a map to the editor. just 2 heroes to fight. edit the heroes to be as equal as possible. imagine a 4 week battle. calculate lvl1 numbers as castle from week 1 plus one external dwelling which is fair. calculate lvl6 from week 2 as castle - no further additions. try on hero level 6. you realise you need to increase the quantity to +350% to win - if you initially had 150 lvl 1 creatures and 24 lvl6 for example, you need 525 lvl1 to win. maybe some less, but if you try on month 1 week 2 for example with lvl 2 you need to increase quantity by 2 and a half times. try it on level 18 as well. as a handicap try it on levels 5, 11 and 17 if you wish.
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szilellis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 25, 2013 11:25 AM |
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Aron said:
OhforfSake said:
szilellis said:
+1 att/def on lvl 6 creature is about 350% better practically and in overall than +1 att/def on a level 1.
How is that?
I'm not quite sure about the math behind this but attack affects the ability to deal that huge damage out. Attack and defense don't in themselves influence damage as +1 or -1 but in percentage points.
Thus having a huge attacking advantage will decimate weak units if it's on a high level beast and will make them almost unkillable unless using spells.
The advantage all things being equal is that while you slowly will decimate weak units with a speciality you will decimate strong units with a speciality much slower due to their high HP and thus in a 1v1 fight the strong unit will have an advantage as time passes.
But all things aren't equal and weak units usually give more bang for the buck.
correct, if you need a short-term advantage lvl1 specialists are great and can make a difference clearing static stacks faster, and faster is better
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2013 02:38 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 14:57, 25 Nov 2013.
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szilellis said:
Hippox89 said:
Wouldn't level 1 creatures with a specialty hero actually be stronger comparatively to level 6 creatures (with specialty, too) in terms of creature number growth and at higher hero levels?
350%? Maybe true if it was a 1:1 creature comparison.
A 5% increase to a higher average damage is obviously going to be a higher increase compared to a lower average damage, but that's a 1:1 creature comparison and not with creature growth taken into account.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this. Maths is not my best.
create a map to the editor. just 2 heroes to fight. edit the heroes to be as equal as possible. imagine a 4 week battle. calculate lvl1 numbers as castle from week 1 plus one external dwelling which is fair. calculate lvl6 from week 2 as castle - no further additions. try on hero level 6. you realise you need to increase the quantity to +350% to win - if you initially had 150 lvl 1 creatures and 24 lvl6 for example, you need 525 lvl1 to win. maybe some less, but if you try on month 1 week 2 for example with lvl 2 you need to increase quantity by 2 and a half times. try it on level 18 as well. as a handicap try it on levels 5, 11 and 17 if you wish.
Well, I didn't mean that level 1 creatures could beat level 6 creatures (except skeletons). I mean that the overall value of level 1 creatures might increase more than level 6 creatures when you include a high level, specialty hero. Factors: growth, cost, stats increase with specialty.
So, for example, how high is the overall value of 28 halberdiers (max town growth without other factors) when not on a hero? Then how high is the same value on a specialty hero, say, level 30?
Then do the same math with a level 6 creature and compare the increases. Does the level 1 creatures become more cost effective between these factors mentioned than the level 6 creatures?
Then the question is, has the level 1 creatures's overall value increased more than their level 6 counterparts in the same situation? I cannot do the math, though. Anyhow, that hopefully clarifies what I meant, maybe not.  But that other post of mine was unclear to my actual point.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 25, 2013 03:46 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:47, 25 Nov 2013.
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Xarfax111 said:
Formular: Percentage that will be raised = (HL-CL) x 5% / CL
I had some problems putting this formula against the numbers posted by Hellburn in the other thread. Using this form and the numbers posted by him, I came to another formula that more closely hits his numbers. Ironically, it includes your point b as well (I was initially a bit thrown back by the numbers you reported and those that Hellburn had in his list until I realised you had omitted point b):
As far as I can tell, a better formula is the following:
MA = Modified Attack;
MD = Modified Defense;
HL = Hero Level;
CL = Creature Level;
The formula applies as soon as HL is greater than or equal to the CL.
MA = TRUNC [ ( ( ( HL - CL ) * 0.05 / CL ) + 1 ) * A + 1 ]
MD = TRUNC [ ( ( ( HL - CL ) * 0.05 / CL ) + 1 ) * D + 1 ]
When HL = CL, the first part of the calculation equates to zero, so you are left with MA = A + 1 and MD = D + 1, just as what you stated with point b. Since the division by CL yields a fraction in most cases whenever CL is larger than 1, the TRUNC part cuts off everything behind the dot.
Despite this, I do have a few discrepancies when comparing it to Hellburns' list. For Skeletons, for instance, the formula yields an AM that's one lower than Hellburns' list at levels 12, 24 and 28. I can't perform a check myself right now, but either his list isn't 100% accurate (I don't know how he compiled it) or the game uses a weird form of truncation.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 26, 2013 09:56 AM |
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I've made an analysis last night; simply made a custom map with just Alkin and Galthran and gave them each of their respective creatures (both "standard" and "upgraded" forms). Then I used the cheatcodes to increase their levels, noting down their own Attack and Defense scores as well as the scores displayed for each of their creature types. I did this all the way up to level 30 and as far as I can tell, Hellburn's list is accurate for those two.
This actually makes me conclude that the bonus is not applied based on a formula, but on a table that's derived from a formula - a table that has typo's. As it is, I've seen discrepancies that are just about impossible to explain with a straight formula but which can easily be interpreted as table typo's.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 26, 2013 11:57 AM |
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Yes HB did also write that it was in game data, and not based on formula, iIRC, but thanks a lot for partially verifying the results, that is always very much appreciated! 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but is this quote:
Quote:
create a map to the editor. just 2 heroes to fight. edit the heroes to be as equal as possible. imagine a 4 week battle. calculate lvl1 numbers as castle from week 1 plus one external dwelling which is fair. calculate lvl6 from week 2 as castle - no further additions. try on hero level 6. you realise you need to increase the quantity to +350% to win - if you initially had 150 lvl 1 creatures and 24 lvl6 for example, you need 525 lvl1 to win. maybe some less, but if you try on month 1 week 2 for example with lvl 2 you need to increase quantity by 2 and a half times. try it on level 18 as well. as a handicap try it on levels 5, 11 and 17 if you wish.
To be read as if you e.g. take Alkin and Galthran, then the amount of Skeletons required to beat X Gorgons increases when the level of Alkin and Galthran inceases as long as they're the same level?
If I understood that correct then I'm very surprised about this information, because as far as I know, there's no difference between the two setups except that the level 1 creatures have better stats relative to their level 5 counterparts than before.. if I understood it correct, could someone please test this? I don't have the game anymore sadly.
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szilellis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 26, 2013 12:37 PM |
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hippox89 said:
szilellis said:
Hippox89 said:
Wouldn't level 1 creatures with a specialty hero actually be stronger comparatively to level 6 creatures (with specialty, too) in terms of creature number growth and at higher hero levels?
350%? Maybe true if it was a 1:1 creature comparison.
A 5% increase to a higher average damage is obviously going to be a higher increase compared to a lower average damage, but that's a 1:1 creature comparison and not with creature growth taken into account.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this. Maths is not my best.
create a map to the editor. just 2 heroes to fight. edit the heroes to be as equal as possible. imagine a 4 week battle. calculate lvl1 numbers as castle from week 1 plus one external dwelling which is fair. calculate lvl6 from week 2 as castle - no further additions. try on hero level 6. you realise you need to increase the quantity to +350% to win - if you initially had 150 lvl 1 creatures and 24 lvl6 for example, you need 525 lvl1 to win. maybe some less, but if you try on month 1 week 2 for example with lvl 2 you need to increase quantity by 2 and a half times. try it on level 18 as well. as a handicap try it on levels 5, 11 and 17 if you wish.
Well, I didn't mean that level 1 creatures could beat level 6 creatures (except skeletons). I mean that the overall value of level 1 creatures might increase more than level 6 creatures when you include a high level, specialty hero. Factors: growth, cost, stats increase with specialty.
So, for example, how high is the overall value of 28 halberdiers (max town growth without other factors) when not on a hero? Then how high is the same value on a specialty hero, say, level 30?
Then do the same math with a level 6 creature and compare the increases. Does the level 1 creatures become more cost effective between these factors mentioned than the level 6 creatures?
Then the question is, has the level 1 creatures's overall value increased more than their level 6 counterparts in the same situation? I cannot do the math, though. Anyhow, that hopefully clarifies what I meant, maybe not. But that other post of mine was unclear to my actual point.
I didn't mean that level 1 creatures could beat level 6 creatures (except skeletons)
Then what is the point if your hero specialty is lesser than the enemy hero specialty? The lvl1 are practically lesser after a point, their advantage is elsewhere, not to the critical battles. Think about it. lvl1 specialty helps you at the start and at short term in intervals at levels 1-5, 7-11, 13-17. The longer you go, the better the higher specialties. Skeletons does not count, it is an exception because there are two enhancements working multiplied here, lvl1 specialty multiplied by necromancy.
I mean that the overall value of level 1 creatures might increase more than level 6 creatures when you include a high level, specialty hero. Factors: growth, cost, stats increase with specialty.
That is true mathematically and for as long as they are alive. consider lvl1 something like an aggressive investment. They die easier though, which is the risk. increased stats are useful the more they are actually used (running into combat mechanics), and the higher the creature level, the higher the stats usage, practically. a typical attack of scorpicores vs troglo is scor attack, tro counter, tro attack, score counter and so on, or can also been scor attack, paralyze at a round even the first one. check the stats usage, scorpicores uses their stats more and for higher quantities just because of attacking first, the lvl 6 abilities and the huge hp per unit that preserves numbers thus attack strenght.
So, for example, how high is the overall value of 28 halberdiers (max town growth without other factors) when not on a hero? Then how high is the same value on a specialty hero, say, level 30?
Not sure i got your question but i try. a halberdier is just a halberdier with the default value of a halberdier. it is like a minotaur king vs a zealot. the minotaur king will win no matter what. his default combat value is higher. on a hero the value increases, depending on the hero, passively for att and def and most likely more depend on hero artifacts, specialties and skills. i guess you ask me the difference of value between two equal heroes, one with creature specialty and the other with a different specialty. well, there is difference, so you ask how much. on a level 30 lvl1 specialist the value is extremely high, passive and available in combat. if the enemy hero is Louinis lvl 30 thought and start with an expert prayer then he boosts his entire army just a click away than your expert prayer (because of his specialty) and his halberdiers almost reach yours (because prayer effect is stronger when applied on weaker units). your halberdiers will still be superior but any other unit will be inferior even if you cast prayer. it is just an example comparing two different specialties.
Then the question is, has the level 1 creatures's overall value increased more than their level 6 counterparts in the same situation?
That mostly depends on the time elapsed. the earlier you go then yes, the lvl1 value is higher. the later you go, the higher the value for higher lvl specialties. so for a specific situation, all is depend on when. fighting a stack at day 1 it is obvious the value is not comparable since lvl1 bonuses are there and make a difference while lvl6 bonuses are simply out of scope, there is not a single lvl6 creature to even get the speed bonus (that did not either need at that point even if the creature was present somehow but anyways). sometimes a lvl2 specialist may start almost just like a lvl1, but it does not have a 100% probability like the lvl1 specialist. if you get Lorelai (harpies) for example and be lucky to start with lvl2 dwelling build, you may upgrade and go out just fight just like with Shakti (troglodytes).
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szilellis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 26, 2013 12:49 PM |
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Xarfax111 said:
+1 att/def on lvl 6 creature is about 350% better practically and in overall than +1 att/def on a level 1.Quote:
Stop writing stupid things. This is acually pure NONSENSE.
This is how it works:
Creature Specialty:
Heroes with creature speciality get actually 3 Bonuses in one .
a) The indicated creatures gain a bonus of +1 to their Speed rating, regardless of the hero’s level. This gives additional movement in the fights and on the map.
b) As soon as the Hero level (= HL) reaches the Creature level (=CL), the indicated creatures also gain a bonus of +1 Attack and +1 Defence ratings.
c) In addition, they gain the 5% percentage bonus based on the creature’s basic attack and defence stats. Unfortunately they tried to balance this ability by dividing the percentage by the Creature Level. This wasn’t really necessary as the varying creature growth would’ve balanced it anyway. Now it takes too many Levels to get this speciality work on high level creatures:
Formular: Percentage that will be raised = (HL-CL) x 5% / CL
Example:
Level 21 Galthran with Skeletons (Level 1)
Formular: (21-1) x 5% /1 = 20 x 5% = 100%
Skeletons Basic Attack = 5
Skeletons Speciality = 5 x 100% = 5
Skeletons Total Attack = 10
Skeletons Basic Defence = 4
Skeletons Speciality = 4 x 100% = 4
Skeletons Total Defence = 8
Example:
Level 25 Alkin with Gorgons (Level 5)
Formulary: (25-5) x 5% / 5 = 20 x 5 % / 5 = 100% / 5 = 20%
Gorgons Basic Attack = 10
Gorgons Speciality = 10 x 20% = 2
Gorgons Total Attack = 12
Gorgons Basic Defence = 14
Gorgons Speciality = 14 x 20% = 2,8
Gorgons Total Defence approx.: = 17
You can see that on with Low Level Creatures the stats got doubled early, while already on Level 5 the effect is very limited. If u upgrade the creature and it gets better stats by this, the speciality also works on this. So for example if u have Galthran on Level 21 and u played well u will face your opponent with zounds of skeleton warriors, which is stats wise similar to face the opponent with zounds of mighty gorgons.
One advice for “testers”: Don’t miss point “b”.
When you simply visit the mercenary camp and get +1 attack, and you have all lvl1 up to lvl7 creatures in your army, at proportional numbers, do all creatures benefit exactly the same by the +1 PRACTICALLY when you combat?
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szilellis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 26, 2013 01:51 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
Szilelis, so you would choose Scorpicore specialist over Shakti? LOL, that really sounds noobish. Also, if you prefer Tamika or Thant (MYSTICISM, good joke xD) over Galthran then really you are slow learner (since release, huh?) Galthran rocks in late game and earlier allows you to move further and clear banks and gather everything MUCH quicker than Tamika, lmao! But I don't blame you, most people who play vs computer don't actually know how does the 'real' game work
And obviously level 1 > level 6, because you have level 1 since Day 1, and level 6 usually by the end of the week (day 4-7, except wyverns) and in small numbers. Doesn't matter if it is XL or S map, because strong level 1 like Trogs, Sprites or Centaurs allow you to develop your hero much much faster and conquer more map, then acquire high level troops faster and in bigger numbers.
Galthran does not count to lvl1 specialties comparison since his strength is based on another thing, numbers, generated by necromancy mostly.
Tamika is something someone else asked, so i answer him what strengths are in that choice.
I prefer to start with Thant because it allows me to kill all i need and more at days 1 to 7 and start with 12 vampire lords at week 2 day 1 on Thant and clear stacks like having 15 (or 17 vampire lords, if knowledge increases just 1), not just 12. Are you aware of what you can kill with (virtually) 17 vampire lords on week 2 day 1 to 7? Going through that way are you aware at what time the earliest Thant may enter a Dragon Utopia? When your Galthran enters a Dragon Utopia the earliest?
Galthran and Vokial are my next choices, or Isra and Vido as second choices, hired as early as provided, i prefer Galthran though. If not present, any necro or DN are fine for week 1 to explore/collect/flag, because Thant need to fight continuously. Anyone is welcome to take the skels and others to dispatch non drain-able stacks or head and clear differently than Thant.
Even on a medium map, on week 1, Thant may dispatch a stack that Galthran won't. Thant do have animate dead no matter what but Galthran 3 stacks are probable at lesser than 100% so you cannot based on that, just hope. Galthran may dispatch the same or a similar stack, but, considering casualties, you strategically choose next week to add more skels from growth and necro. That means Thant will get something important earlier, which is considerable.
On a small map, Galthran is a better choice to start more dynamically, not that Thant is much behind though.
So on L and XL maps i choose Thant, on M and S depends on enemies and other factors, but i can choose Galthran, especially on S.
You consider mysticism specialty useless because it does not help AT the combat directly. mysticism is simply an endurance skill. the specialty along with common-found artifacts allows Thant to rush PVE faster - sometimes so fast that the gains are far superior to an in combat specialty, no just equal or somewhat better. see it as logistics and pathfinding. those heroes, especially warrior oriented, move more, kill more, advance more. mysticism is the same for a caster. it is pointless to reach combat if you have lesser mana than you need. mysticism makes sure you restore a portion of your well spent mana. the specialty makes sure you may take on a harder battle, the extra mana you spent will be replaced by the specialty.
Level 1 allows you to start faster, develop faster, and it counts. it is better to start with a lvl1 specialist. Thant is an exception - necropolis is an exception at many things. lvl 1 speciualists are standard early power. there are other choices depending on town and playstyle. lvl1 is standard as i say. easy to utilise the advantages. Thant needs specific skill for example compared to Galthran. Galthran bonuses are passive - how you fight with Thant skells and when you cast animate is not. sometimes for example, having 1 stack of skells against 2 stacks of much fewer lvl1, some late round of a battle, you need to defend. sounds stupid but you need to:
You attack, kill stack 1, stack 2 attacks, you retaliate, kill stack 2, combat ends, no animate dead  , casualties (casualties are forbidden for Thant)
You defend, stack 1 attacks, you retaliate, kill stack 1, stack 2 attacks, no retaliation (used), next round, you cast animate dead restoring your casualties, you attack stack 2, kill stack 2, combat ends, no casualties, collect skellies
of cource you need caution with Galthran skellies, but some things are simply due to passive bonuses like speed. Easier than Thant.
I had played tons of pvp. is there a server nowdays for pvp? thanks! you call me a noob which is a very good thing because if true, i still have a lot of things to learn. if not, no new things to learn i read the entire thread all 45+ pages, did not found something i did not already knew.
Now Shakti vs Synca. If i want to play with creature specialists, i start with Shakti for sure but i can manage starting with Synca as well. if i believe i am superior to my opponent, i start with Synca. if however i start with Shakti i buy Synca week 1, 2 or 3 provided there is a path to clear that Shakti won;t make it due to time restriction. If there is map to clear, you always get/use a hero, it is pointless to leave it for the 'main' because 1 hero could not clear but a SPECIFIED amount of land at a given time. During that time, a specific number of additional heroes will clear a specific map area and that is rewards and experience that your main WILL NEVER GET. The faster you PVE the stronger you are. PVE comes first. If you PVE less than your opponent you will be weaker. so you need pvp superiority to counter. that is commonly an oblivion someone may enter, that he is superior at pvp enough to neglect pve maximum performance. two level 15 heroes of a player at equal strength with you on pve will have approximately +30% more army than your single main hero lvl 19, that is, each of them will have approximately the 65% of your army, if armies are equally divided. So instead of having a lvl1 specialist at level 19 for example with full army, i prefer a level 15 vlv1 specialist and another level 15 lvl6 specialist.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 26, 2013 02:18 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
Yes HB did also write that it was in game data, and not based on formula, iIRC, but thanks a lot for partially verifying the results, that is always very much appreciated!
Yes, I read that  . But I don't know how he went about to document his findings, what setup he used to verify everything. If he only wrote down when he perceived a jump instead of all data for each level, then he might have missed a thing or two. And even just compiling it into the list he posted in the other topic might have been susceptible to human error . But I guess he was thorough, since I come to the same findings for at least those two Heroes, up to lvl 30.
I guess having an internal table with boosted Creature Attack and Defense values for each level is a clean way to go about it (as the game won't have to perform the calculations all the time to figure out what the bonus really is, just a table lookup), but I abhor the inconsistencies that are in it. I've considered the fact that maybe the Hero gives a hidden bonus at specific levels, but so far I haven't been able to find a pattern to it.
Maybe I need to follow on Hellburn's work and map out the boosted values up to (much) higher levels.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2013 02:45 PM |
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szilellis said:
Galthran does not count to lvl1 specialties comparison since his strength is based on another thing, numbers, generated by necromancy mostly.
LOL, so you say he doesn't buff the legions of free skeletons? Man, bullcrap. If he buffs skeletons, he IS a level 1 specialist.
szilellis said:
I prefer to start with Thant because it allows me to kill all i need and more at days 1 to 7 and start with 12 vampire lords at week 2 day 1 on Thant and clear stacks like having 15 (or 17 vampire lords, if knowledge increases just 1), not just 12. Are you aware of what you can kill with (virtually) 17 vampire lords on week 2 day 1 to 7? Going through that way are you aware at what time the earliest Thant may enter a Dragon Utopia? When your Galthran enters a Dragon Utopia the earliest?
You have the same ammount of Vampire Lords with Galthran and with Thant. Thant doesn't give u magically more vampires. Galthran is a deathknight so he has much better stats, whereas Thant can only cast 1 max 2 times ressurect undead which is useless since you don't lose any vampire lords ever even without it if you know how to place them... He is also always on bad position in final battle because he is a magic hero and has wasted 1 slot with mysticism where other heroes can get something useful like offense, armourer or earth/air. Also Death Knights level up better than necromancers.
szilellis said:
You consider mysticism specialty useless because it does not help AT the combat directly. mysticism is simply an endurance skill. the specialty along with common-found artifacts allows Thant to rush PVE faster - sometimes so fast that the gains are far superior to an in combat specialty, no just equal or somewhat better. see it as logistics and pathfinding. those heroes, especially warrior oriented, move more, kill more, advance more. mysticism is the same for a caster. it is pointless to reach combat if you have lesser mana than you need. mysticism makes sure you restore a portion of your well spent mana.
That's not true. Animate dead costs 12 mana meaning that u need 4 days with micticism to recover after 1 use. Considering 1v1 game lasts about 2-5 weeks it really doesn't give ANY advantage. It also wastes 1 slot which could be used for 10 times better skills - logistics, offense, armourer. Also magic weels and other map objects are almost always very common so mysticism is no use.
By they way, pathfinding is mostly useless for necro (and not only for necro) for your information, especially when hives and conservatories are banned (but even if they are not all u need to do is to have a secondary hero close).
szilellis said:
Level 1 allows you to start faster, develop faster, and it counts. it is better to start with a lvl1 specialist
No, level 1 specialists worth picking are only Galthran and Shakti, you can have much better choices in other towns (Marius instead of Ignatus for example)
szilellis said:
I had played tons of pvp. is there a server nowdays for pvp? thanks! you call me a noob which is a very good thing because if true, i still have a lot of things to learn. if not, no new things to learn i read the entire thread all 45+ pages, did not found something i did not already knew.
Playing with your mates on LAN or Hot Seat doesn't mean anything lol. Try playing in WCL or Gameranger against good players and just reconsider stupid things you say
szilellis said:
Shakti vs Synca. If i want to play with creature specialists, i start with Shakti for sure but i can manage starting with Synca as well. if i believe i am superior to my opponent, i start with Synca. if however i start with Shakti i buy Synca week 1, 2 or 3 provided there is a path to clear that Shakti won;t make it due to time restriction. If there is map to clear, you always get/use a hero, it is pointless to leave it for the 'main' because 1 hero could not clear but a SPECIFIED amount of land at a given time. During that time, a specific number of additional heroes will clear a specific map area and that is rewards and experience that your main WILL NEVER GET. The faster you PVE the stronger you are. PVE comes first. If you PVE less than your opponent you will be weaker. so you need pvp superiority to counter. that is commonly an oblivion someone may enter, that he is superior at pvp enough to neglect pve maximum performance. two level 15 heroes of a player at equal strength with you on pve will have approximately +30% more army than your single main hero lvl 19, that is, each of them will have approximately the 65% of your army, if armies are equally divided. So instead of having a lvl1 specialist at level 19 for example with full army, i prefer a level 15 vlv1 specialist and another level 15 lvl6 specialist.
Shakti >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crap >>> Justin Bieber > Synca as a main (Scholar, poor speciality, standard starting army... really?)
Just chain Shakti's trogs all over the place and clear all your zone and Crypts in one week.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted November 26, 2013 03:42 PM |
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Be nice to each other it's just a game!
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szilellis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 26, 2013 04:55 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
szilellis said:
Galthran does not count to lvl1 specialties comparison since his strength is based on another thing, numbers, generated by necromancy mostly.
LOL, so you say he doesn't buff the legions of free skeletons? Man, bullcrap. If he buffs skeletons, he IS a level 1 specialist.
you cannot compare Galthran vs Tamika the same way you compare Shakti vs Synca.
szilellis said:
I prefer to start with Thant because it allows me to kill all i need and more at days 1 to 7 and start with 12 vampire lords at week 2 day 1 on Thant and clear stacks like having 15 (or 17 vampire lords, if knowledge increases just 1), not just 12. Are you aware of what you can kill with (virtually) 17 vampire lords on week 2 day 1 to 7? Going through that way are you aware at what time the earliest Thant may enter a Dragon Utopia? When your Galthran enters a Dragon Utopia the earliest?
You have the same ammount of Vampire Lords with Galthran and with Thant. Thant doesn't give u magically more vampires. Galthran is a deathknight so he has much better stats, whereas Thant can only cast 1 max 2 times ressurect undead which is useless since you don't lose any vampire lords ever even without it if you know how to place them... He is also always on bad position in final battle because he is a magic hero and has wasted 1 slot with mysticism where other heroes can get something useful like offense, armourer or earth/air. Also Death Knights level up better than necromancers.
No you do not have the same amount, because when your VL reach the number of 5/12 regardless the shield spell, you can raise to 8-9 with the rest 15 mana and attack, replenishing your stack fully(12/12). With Galthran, you may cannot take on that battle. You could, if you had 15 VLs. But you have not. Obviously you take on PVE battles you can safely finish. And safely for you means reducing your army actual ability by 10%-20% to be sure - too hard to calculate each pve stack, after all, VL are valuable to loose. Thant can take on a stronger stack than you think. And with just 1 knowledge and therefore 2 raises at week 2(sometimes 3 are available at week 2), Thant may finish an even stronger stack that Galthran cannot touch despite his +2 att and def starting superiority, or +3 if you like, make it +4 total to be happy. With 3 casts, Thant with 12 VL can kill up to 28 nagas or 21 naga queens. Can Galthran do the same? And you do not answer my question, when Galthran enters Dragon Utopia? Or Utopias are also banned?
szilellis said:
You consider mysticism specialty useless because it does not help AT the combat directly. mysticism is simply an endurance skill. the specialty along with common-found artifacts allows Thant to rush PVE faster - sometimes so fast that the gains are far superior to an in combat specialty, no just equal or somewhat better. see it as logistics and pathfinding. those heroes, especially warrior oriented, move more, kill more, advance more. mysticism is the same for a caster. it is pointless to reach combat if you have lesser mana than you need. mysticism makes sure you restore a portion of your well spent mana.
That's not true. Animate dead costs 12 mana meaning that u need 4 days with micticism to recover after 1 use. Considering 1v1 game lasts about 2-5 weeks it really doesn't give ANY advantage. It also wastes 1 slot which could be used for 10 times better skills - logistics, offense, armourer. Also magic weels and other map objects are almost always very common so mysticism is no use.
15 mana, 12 on basic earthmagic. 1v1 game on XL lasts 5 weeks? with one main hero, within 5 weeks, you hunt your opponent and take all his cities and destroying all his armies? amazing. pls sent me a link to join net pvp - where is that server? the myst bonus increases with level allows thant to even faster, even stronger stacks, gainning levels faster, gainning loot faster and so on.
By they way, pathfinding is mostly useless for necro (and not only for necro) for your information, especially when hives and conservatories are banned (but even if they are not all u need to do is to have a secondary hero close).
why banned? it is just a single-time army pool. strange. what exactly that ban serves? what is the logic behind?
szilellis said:
Level 1 allows you to start faster, develop faster, and it counts. it is better to start with a lvl1 specialist
No, level 1 specialists worth picking are only Galthran and Shakti, you can have much better choices in other towns (Marius instead of Ignatus for example)
Shakti only for hard monster setting, which i guess is selected. for normal monster setting, Damacon is better for me. or diplomacy is also banned? for hard setting Damacon is still good if you know how exactly to use that +350 per day
szilellis said:
I had played tons of pvp. is there a server nowdays for pvp? thanks! you call me a noob which is a very good thing because if true, i still have a lot of things to learn. if not, no new things to learn i read the entire thread all 45+ pages, did not found something i did not already knew.
Playing with your mates on LAN or Hot Seat doesn't mean anything lol. Try playing in WCL or Gameranger against good players and just reconsider stupid things you say
sure, just sent me a link. i used to play back to 1999 to some servers but about a year or two later i give up. in 99% of the cases, players just quit when i crash their main hero+army or conquer 6-12 cities and transform their main to either a turbo bicycle or a main (and soon only) castle-guardian. are you familiar with those terms?
szilellis said:
Shakti vs Synca. If i want to play with creature specialists, i start with Shakti for sure but i can manage starting with Synca as well. if i believe i am superior to my opponent, i start with Synca. if however i start with Shakti i buy Synca week 1, 2 or 3 provided there is a path to clear that Shakti won;t make it due to time restriction. If there is map to clear, you always get/use a hero, it is pointless to leave it for the 'main' because 1 hero could not clear but a SPECIFIED amount of land at a given time. During that time, a specific number of additional heroes will clear a specific map area and that is rewards and experience that your main WILL NEVER GET. The faster you PVE the stronger you are. PVE comes first. If you PVE less than your opponent you will be weaker. so you need pvp superiority to counter. that is commonly an oblivion someone may enter, that he is superior at pvp enough to neglect pve maximum performance. two level 15 heroes of a player at equal strength with you on pve will have approximately +30% more army than your single main hero lvl 19, that is, each of them will have approximately the 65% of your army, if armies are equally divided. So instead of having a lvl1 specialist at level 19 for example with full army, i prefer a level 15 vlv1 specialist and another level 15 lvl6 specialist.
Shakti >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crap >>> Justin Bieber > Synca as a main (Scholar, poor speciality, standard starting army... really?)
Just chain Shakti's trogs all over the place and clear all your zone and Crypts in one week.
if the area is poorly restricted, damacon will buy you 1 more hero to collect free loot and explore. no matter what 2450 more gold will be available to you at week 1 day 7. +1 hero means +1 chance for an outsider who can be Crag, Tazar, Lounis, Galthbert or Olema, Solmyr... or Shakti!
If your area is restricted, Shakti becomes a better choice.
I do not like Synca much, at least not more than Dace, for the dungeon. If i have to use a lvl1 specialist i will, for example if i have to play at full potential at short term for a reason (a game i want to win badly). If i can afford some potential, i can start with someone i like. if i play vs you for example i may pick Shakti 1st time but at the next time i pick someone else, most likely, even the crystal girl. just an example nothing personal.
ps sent me the pvp link. although i believe that after i crash main army pvp will end. happened so many times before...
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 26, 2013 05:13 PM |
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But people buy 8 heroes anyway for maximum development. Level 1 specialists may ensure you a faster early development. Later in the game they may not be the best candidate for main (though I think that maybe Galthran [+11/11 at level 25] could challenge Crag), but even on XL maps, getting an early advantage can have an impact all the way to the end of the game.
Not all level 1 specialists are equally good though. In my opinion, creature specialists are bought for their +1 speed stat and because they come with extra units of their own level (for some level 4 specialists and all level 3 and below, I believe). Otherwise, in general at, say level 25, a creature specialist gives you +4/4 for most units, maybe with a tad more for level 1 units [alkin gives +5/8, Shakti +7/5, and everyone else are below these values, except Galthran who grants massive +11/11].
The extra units of level 1 spec. are in quantities of up to 20 or up to 30. That's why Alkin isn't nearly as good as Shakti, to make an example. (Or was it up to 30 and 40?).
For level 2 units and up, iIRC it's much lower values, hardly making it wortwhile. Even the basilisk specialist's 4 (or was it 9?) basilisk (iIRC) aren't as good as what level 1 specialists with up to 30 units pr. slot, up to 3 slots, can produce.
Specialists I like for the different towns are:
Castle: None [Archer spec. doesn't grow fast enough in stats, RG spec. could be good for poor maps, I suppose, Champ spec. has a hidden +1 att. in jousting bonus I believe, but I've never found that to be salvaging]
Tower: Genie's [Only versus Stronghold to have a faster army, usually won't matter anyway, Neela is probably the better choice].
Rampart: None [Elf spec. stats doesn't grow fast enough, I suppose the level 6 specialist might be usable in early games due to +1 speed for clearing purposes, never tried it]
Inferno: Efreeti [Only for Armageddon versus Necro], Demons [because they're in unlimited number] - Marius still doesn't come close to Galthran though, while the +1 speed is nice, Demons are mid level units and gains only +4/4, similar to level 3-6 specialist, whereas Galthran gains +11/11 (both at level 25).
Necropolis: Skeletons, maybe Vamps too (though only +4/4, so DK's may be a better choice).
Dungeon: Trogs [because they come max quantities for level 1 units and aren't on the fragile side of their level stats wise (gremlin, imp, pixie, goblins)] - in general the unit specialists at Dungeon gives better + stats at level 25, if only barely. So I wouldn't limit myself to only Shakti, but Shakti overshines the rest, because he grants you the means for an early powerful army (200 trogs ahoi!).
Fortress: Wyverns [semi-unlimited unit], D-flies [versus Necro, Tazar is probably better]
Stronghold: T-birds [versus Tower, Crag is still the better choice]
Conflux: Maybe the water-elements guy.
Even with the impressive +5 Dmg, Earth Elements are still below mediocre for level 5.
Aron said:
Be nice to each other it's just a game!
If any of my post appears unfriendly, I'll just say sorry in advance, it's not supposed to be read so. 
Edit: Thank you very much idc (idontcare)
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 27, 2013 10:59 AM |
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Did some more testing yesterday evening ... got both Heroes up to level 74. At that point, the next "nwcneo" seemingly pumped a load of experience into them that boosted them both to level 88 (my guess is that the cheat refers to an experience table per level and someone made a typo and added 1 digit too much to the amount to add ...). After level 88, the next level up dropped both Heroes to level 0, with a massive negative experience count, so I guess the variable suffered an overflow in its byte value. Galthran's bonus dropped off of the Skeletons at that point, by the way .
Regardless, as I was checking Alkin's boosts through the levels, I realised that if Xarfax's (and mine, I might add) formula would be correct regarding a boost of 5% each level, then every 20 levels you'd see a repetition of the same boost pattern. You don't (well, I did see it for Skeleton Warriors, but not for Skeletons or either Gorgon type). This leads me to believe that either it's not a straight-up 5% each level and they made a really convoluted formula to determine it, or they manually made some changes to the table they derived from the simpler formula.
Unfortunately, since the table caps off at level 74, it's hard to identify any repetitions of the pattern that exceeds steps of 20 levels. Maybe I should edit my test map and add experience reward events that repeat themselves, just to map out the range of 75-87.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted November 27, 2013 05:14 PM |
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I just thought about something, does eagle eye work without wisdom? Can I learn level 4 spells on a hero with no wisdom using expert eagle eye?!
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted November 28, 2013 11:49 AM |
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This is weird. It says Ohrof was the last posted in 18 nov 02:23 but before this post the only post I can read is my post about Eagle Eye?
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 28, 2013 11:56 AM |
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Aron said:
This is weird. It says Ohrof was the last posted in 18 nov 02:23 but before this post the only post I can read is my post about Eagle Eye?
It's because "Ohrof" edits a previous post, and the forum doesn't differentiate between a new post and an old edited post when it updates the "posted in" of the thread.
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Living time backwards
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted November 28, 2013 05:41 PM |
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted November 28, 2013 11:16 PM |
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The time machine
WTF? Who posted this? Runs away while we are still above level 114.
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The empty set
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This thread is pages long: 
