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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HOMM3 Tactics
Thread: HOMM3 Tactics This thread is 69 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 50 ... 58 59 60 61 62 ... 69 · «PREV / NEXT»
Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2015 05:58 PM
Edited by Laser70 at 18:31, 29 Nov 2015.

bloodsucker said:
Laser70 said:
You're comparing ingenius strategies up against a faction which can't have an ingenius strategy, and THATS what I'm talking about. And you're trying to make an intellectual score on that, which tells alot about you.

There can be found a lot of ingenious strategies for Tower in these pages but you presist in pointing a way we know from experience leads to disaster and I am the one "trying to make an intellectual score"?


Ingenious to me have to account for a changing type of gameplay, the guide you can read about in the link a few posts back deal more with weaknesses in the engine and calculated ways of getting through the startup phase. It deals more with math than it does with an ingenious strategy. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a good calculation how to get through the "speed bumps" in early games, but "ingenious" have to also account for a dynamic game play, and in order to be able to be dynamic, you have to at least have a minimum of everything, you can't warp eggs into existence, they have to come from somewhere.

btw, a Titan has the same health as 20 Grand Elves, so to compare them up against one another is worthless. Just imagine if you had a hero with 20 grand elves and you fought many smaller targets, the chance that you would lose all of them is very low, you could probably attack many small unit stacks on the map without losing all 20 grand elves. To lose 1 titan is the same as losing all of those grand elves, and every time a battle is over, the probability is reset again. So again, can't compare A single Titan up against 20 grand elves for example. The probability that your stack is reduced in a battle is much much higher, and once its lost its lost.

And then there is another law you must account for, when 1 titan fights against 20 grand elves, after each round the stack of grand elves is reduced and gets a lower attack strength for each round, the titan is as strong as it can be all the way to the end of the combat.

I say this because people seem to compare the price tag of a Titan up against, say 20 Grand Elves in an unrealistic way. It's miles apart, not comparable. A titan is an investment, 20 Grand Elves are candy bars, they are consumed, and again, the Titan is an investment.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted November 29, 2015 07:30 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:47, 29 Nov 2015.

Laser70 said:
Ingenious to me have to account for a changing type of gameplay(...)"ingenious" have to also account for a dynamic game play


Max Conservatory with Tower week 2
Now u have 4 angels + shield+bless+haste and can take a tope week two. Is it dynamic enouch for you?

Max Crypt on Ice, day 1 with Tower
A reliable way to get money from map, so you can develop faster. I find 5000 gold very gameplay changing when I'm broke.

Laser70 said:
a Titan has the same health as 20 Grand Elves, so to compare them up against one another is worthless. (...)

I say this because people seem to compare the price tag of a Titan up against, say 20 Grand Elves (...) It's miles apart, not comparable. A titan is an investment, 20 Grand Elves are candy bars.


Maretti - day 3 min cons with Rampart
Thing is the candy bars granted him an angel day 3 (is this before the game started in your vocabulary, if having Titans is "very early game"?) and now he can sweep the surrounding area and get the money and resources to build whatever he wants, while you will have to wait two more weeks to get the Titans. Good luck on finding anything to creep with them at that time.
The real comparison is not between Grand Elves and Titans but total army plus main development and if you are doing day three what the other guy will do mid week two, you will probably have a much bigger/better army by that time.

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icare
icare

Tavern Dweller
posted November 29, 2015 08:10 PM

to be honest the angel is very good not because it does tons of damage, its brilliant because its basicly a NEW army, which can be used on either a scout or the mainhero

1 Angel can beat a ton of first week stuff, including max crypt if either high stats or some magic(the 10 vamps are tough, but with stats not)
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2015 09:29 PM

Quote:


Ingenious to me have to account for a changing type of gameplay,
the guide you can read about in the link a few posts back deal more with weaknesses in the engine and calculated ways of getting through the startup phase..
.

Maths trumps your kind of 'ingeniousness' EVERY SNOWING TIME.

Quote:
you can't warp eggs into existence, they have to come from somewhere.


And THAT is one of the reasons your week 2 giant is a snow idea; You waste an inordinate amount of resources for a negligible increase in army strength, which stays unusable before week 2 day 1, unlike your opponent who by that time has a greater gross army strength income(citadel and/or castle plus a couple of units built) AND who has converted a significantly greater amount of currency into immediately available army strength, giving him a HUGE overall tempo advantage.

Quote:
btw, a Titan has the same health as 20 Grand Elves, so to compare them up against one another is worthless. The probability that your stack is reduced in a battle is much much higher, and once its lost its lost.


BULLCRAP. 20 Grand Elves are MUCH MUCH MUCH more valuable: they are available orders of magnitude earlier, and their damage output SHAMES that of the Titan. Their gradual dying off is INCONSEQUENTIAL, because you ALWAYS gain something out of battles won due to those lost elves, which more than compensates for having lost them. Moreover, you are already burning elves off weeks before that single Titan ever sees any play.

Quote:
And then there is another law you must account for, when 1 titan fights against 20 grand elves, after each round the stack of grand elves is reduced and gets a lower attack strength for each round, the titan is as strong as it can be all the way to the end of the combat.


1 Titan NEVER EVER fights 20 Elves! Battles are MUCH MORE COMPLEX than a series of independent 1-on-1 duels!

Quote:
I say this because people seem to compare the price tag of a Titan up against, say 20 Grand Elves in an unrealistic way. It's miles apart, not comparable. A titan is an investment, 20 Grand Elves are candy bars, they are consumed, and again, the Titan is an investment.


You have the roles reversed: 20 Grand Elves are an investment - with immense returns, I might add - while Titans are little more than eye candy. Tempo is everything, and 20 Elves grant a greater tempo advantage than 1 Titan.

Stop trolling and learn to play!
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Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2015 09:45 PM
Edited by Laser70 at 21:51, 29 Nov 2015.

Don't start to be rude on me, you're the troller here.

Yes, it has greater tempo in the construction of elves, AND it has greater tempo in the deaths of the very same elves. They die much quicker just like they are built more quicker. The titan stays strong and dies less often. Which is the only thing I've said about that, I never rejected the tempo thing, but I did say that the tempo at which they are dying is much greater than that of the titan.

And there are other units in tower that can replace that tempo in the time frame where I don't have giants.

A titan would probably not fight 20 grand elves but if they did the Titan would win, it has the first move too. (it can just put air shield in that move)

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2015 10:26 PM

Laser70 said:
Don't start to be rude on me, you're the troller here.

Yes, it has greater tempo in the construction of elves, AND it has greater tempo in the deaths of the very same elves. They die much quicker just like they are built more quicker. The titan stays strong and dies less often. Which is the only thing I've said about that, I never rejected the tempo thing, but I did say that the tempo at which they are dying is much greater than that of the titan.

And there are other units in tower that can replace that tempo in the time frame where I don't have giants.

A titan would probably not fight 20 grand elves but if they did the Titan would win, it has the first move too. (it can just put air shield in that move)


Duuuude, whatever stuff you're on, do share... Damage output of the Elves is higher (120-200 with an attack skill of 9 vs 40-60 with an attack skill of 24) and while 1 Titan beats 20 Elves one-on-one, it only does so in unrealistic conditions (Titan waits first turn, Elves do some damage, Titan crosses battlefield and engages Elves in melee -THIS NEVER HAPPENS IN GAMES). THE TITAN IS NOT PARTICULARLY STRONG TO BEGIN WITH!

Moreover, to get 20 Grand Elves you need to spend

-2 days building time
-20 Wood and 7500 Gold

To get the Titan you need to spend

-8 days building time AT BEST
-40 Wood and Ore, 7 Sulfur, 13 Crystal, 7 Mercury, 53 Gems, 47500 Gold

That leaves Rampart with an extreme tempo AND army advantage, which he will use to UTTERLY DEMOLISH you while you are waiting impotently for your useless Titan.



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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted November 29, 2015 10:29 PM

Laser70 said:
you're the troller here.

No, man. You are the troll and are starting to piss everybody.
You want so much to be right you don't even analyse your how permises.

For instance:
Laser70 said:
A titan would probably not fight 20 grand elves but if they did the Titan would win, it has the first move too. (it can just put air shield in that move)

What's the hero who cames with Air Shield so u can use Neela's Scholar to learn it? Or did you also got the special resources to build up to mage guild level 3 (maybe with Library, too) to find it?
You really have no notion how the game plays when you didn't crippled the AI to a max of 3 or 4 heroes and started with enouch resources to just sit there and wait.

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Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2015 10:41 PM
Edited by Laser70 at 22:52, 29 Nov 2015.

Could also put shield or curse on the enemy, or even forgetfulness, it all depends on the situation. The titan has the first move, if we assume lowest damage, after the first shot the grand elves are left with 260 health points and the titan has 300.

Forgetfulness is excellent because the titan cant have that spell on it, and it has no melee penalty, it would just destroy the elves in close contact. It's not really interesting, my main point is that the titan is strong to the end of the combat, the elves lose strength every round.

Here is my point:

Round 1:
Elves die
Titan does not

Round 2:
More elves die
Titan does not

Round 3:
More elves die
Titan does not

Spellcasting:

Blind Elves (Works nicely)
Titan can't be blinded

Forgetfulness on Elves (Works nicely)
Titan can't forget its ranged attack

The titan has the first move and if it puts blind on the elves and then walks up to the elves so the elves have to fight melee, then they are dead. Especially after the Titan has put shield on itself before they are unblinded.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted November 29, 2015 10:56 PM

Laser70 I get what you are saying, but I also get what The_Polyglot is saying. There is no doubt that one Titan is stronger than 20 Grand Elves, but why do you make this comparison? The point is you can get those 20 Grand Elves much before that 1 Titan, so the elves can accomplish more before you get that Titan. You might lose some or all of the elves, but it will be worth it because you got something in return, while the Titan was not even available to be hired yet. So yes you are right, but so is The_Polyglot.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:01 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:09, 29 Nov 2015.

And I have to repeat myself: You want so much to be right you don't even analyse your how permises.

Laser70 said:
Could also put shield or curse on the enemy, or even forgetfulness, it all depends on the situation.

So, Neela starts with Shield and Aine with Curse (that will not appear in a Tower level 1 mage guild ever) but Shield only affects "Hand-to-hand damage" so it is useless, I believe you wanted to say Stone Skin. Forgetfullness is again a level 3 spell, requires Water Magic to be effective and I'm not aware of any hero who starts with it.
Another thing, 20 Grand Elves are splitable a Titan is not. Supose I have Coronius (Slayer and Scholar) and I learned Ice Bolt from Alagar. I split the Grand Elves in 1/1/1/1/1/1/14 and cast Slayer in the last stack, then start casting Ice Bolts. Who do you think will win?

P.S. Sorry, I made the same mistake I acused you. Unless with Fire Magic Slayer is also useless against Titans, so supose I use Alamar instead and only cast Ice-Bolts.  

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted November 29, 2015 11:09 PM

bloodsucker said:
I split the Grand Elves in 1/1/1/1/1/1/14 and cast Slayer in the last stack, then start casting Ice Bolts. Who do you think will win?


Brings me memory about people trying to hit and run with such configurations. And me having one angel and death ripple at 190.

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Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:10 PM
Edited by Laser70 at 23:12, 29 Nov 2015.

bloodsucker said:
And I have to repeat myself: You want so much to be right you don't even analyse your how permises.

Laser70 said:
Could also put shield or curse on the enemy, or even forgetfulness, it all depends on the situation.

So, Neela starts with Shield and Aine with Curse (that will not appear in a Tower level 1 mage guild ever) but Shield only affects "Hand-to-hand damage" so it is useless, I believe you wanted to say Stone Skin. Forgetfullness is again a level 3 spell, requires Water Magic to be effective and I'm not aware of any hero who starts with it.
Another thing, 20 Grand Elves are splitable a Titan is not. Supose I have Coronius (Slayer and Scholar) and I learned Ice Bolt from Alagar. I split the Grand Elves in 1/1/1/1/1/1/14 and cast Slayer in the last stack, then start casting Ice Bolts. Who do you think will win?


Everything is situational. You are giving a very VERY situational example.

When I am attacking your hero and you didn't have a chance to split them into that.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:11 PM
Edited by The_Polyglot at 23:16, 29 Nov 2015.

Quote:
Everything is situational. You are giving a very VERY situational example.


Just following your lead dude.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:13 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:33, 29 Nov 2015.

Salamandre said:
Brings me memory about people trying to hit and run with such configurations. And me having one angel and death ripple at 190.
Guess you would appreciate to have my "Sell Prims in the Black Market" script in that game.

Laser70 said:
You are giving a very VERY situational example.
Nope, as Salamandre noticed is a very commun configuration, in normal situations I would probably have "all my Grand Elves"/1 centaur captain/1 CC/1 CC/1 CC/1 CC/"the rest of the CCs". About heroes, I think I have a better chance to find Alamar and a Scholar hero starting with Rampart, then you to learn Forgetfullness or Air Shield.
The other most commun configuration is yours and Salamandre's: 1 single stack of a powerfull unit. It is very effective with strong casters like Tower but is also the main reason why that angel day 3 is so much more decisive then your Titan week 2.

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Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:34 PM
Edited by Laser70 at 23:38, 29 Nov 2015.

bloodsucker said:
Salamandre said:
Brings me memory about people trying to hit and run with such configurations. And me having one angel and death ripple at 190.
Guess you would appreciate to have my "Sell Prims in the Black Market" script in that game.

Laser70 said:
You are giving a very VERY situational example.
Nope, as Salamandre noticed is a very commun configuration, in normal situations I would probably have "all my Grand Elves"/1 centaur captain/1 CC/1 CC/1 CC/1 CC/"the rest of the CCs". About heroes, I think I have a better chance to find Alamar and a Scholar hero starting with Rampart, then you to learn Forgetfullness or Air Shield.


I would probably just blind it, and then force them into a melee, after I shielded myself and stone skinned myself, and probably cursed the elves if I had enough spell power to wait that many turns and most heroes have at least 3 spell power in their first battle so that wouldn't be a problem. I just did a match right now with two heroes of same stats, I put it on auto battle so both fights were done by the computer, the titan survived. I guess I could have done a better setup, but it was just a quickie. There are 20 beautiful grand elves corpses on the ground. (The titan stands there proud)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:40 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 00:06, 30 Nov 2015.

Laser70 said:
I would probably just blind it, and then force them into a melee, after I shielded myself and stone skinned myself, and probably cursed the elves if I had enough spell power to wait that many turns and most heroes have at least 3 spell power in their first battle so that wouldn't be a problem. I just did a match right now with two heroes of same stats, I put it on auto battle so both fights were done by the computer, the titan survived. I guess I could have done a better setup, but it was just a quickie.

You are forgeting the Ice-Bolts, right? If I got Water and some spellpower your Titan is dead before you wake my elves.

P.S. I think nobody here belives the Elves would win in such a situation. But we are not AI, we can be creative.

P.P.S. I started a game with the default settings to see how much damage Alagar does and I quit this argument. You're right, didn't remembered how much stuff you start with, if you play a XL map at 100%, with all those resources you can simply grab some free stuff from the ground and gave Cloud Castle week 1 + citadel, go for money without hiring week 2, week 3 upgrade Cloud Castle (if you got gems from some gardens or windmills) and still be in time to conquer everything with Titans. But that's just on VERY EASY settings against "poor AI", even developers making the game already knew it was possible to do better then that.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:51 PM

Dude, the point is not whether a Titan can defeat 20 Elves in single combat or not. The point is that in an organic game environment it is much easier and quicker to get 20 Grand Elves than a single Titan and the benefits of the elves outweigh those of the Titan by a large margin, rendering the Titan MOOT. Therefore you are better off with the Elves than with the Titan.
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Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:52 PM
Edited by Laser70 at 00:00, 30 Nov 2015.

bloodsucker said:
Laser70 said:
I would probably just blind it, and then force them into a melee, after I shielded myself and stone skinned myself, and probably cursed the elves if I had enough spell power to wait that many turns and most heroes have at least 3 spell power in their first battle so that wouldn't be a problem. I just did a match right now with two heroes of same stats, I put it on auto battle so both fights were done by the computer, the titan survived. I guess I could have done a better setup, but it was just a quickie.

You are forgeting the Ice-Bolts, right? If I got Water and some spellpower your Titan is dead before you wake my elves.

P.S. I think nobody here belives the Elves would win in such a situation. But we are not AI, we can be creative.


It doesn't matter, those 20 grand elves cost 4500 gold and my Titan costs 5000 gold and 2 gems. That means that the Rampart player has just lost 4500 gold, including his hero and the artifacts and have to wait at least a week to get another round of them.

I am hoping that he will come up against me with the same number of grand elves the next time because then my Titan would probably survive just like it did in the first battle, and he would lose another round of 4500 gold, his hero and the artifacts.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 29, 2015 11:59 PM
Edited by The_Polyglot at 00:04, 30 Nov 2015.

That settles it. You have no idea what you're talking about and just want to provoke a reaction from those of us who do. In other words, you are trolling us.
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Laser70
Laser70


Adventuring Hero
posted November 30, 2015 12:16 AM
Edited by Laser70 at 00:52, 30 Nov 2015.

The_Polyglot said:
That settles it. You have no idea what you're talking about and just want to provoke a reaction from those of us who do. In other words, you are trolling us.


In what field exactly are you talking about when you say that I don't know what I'm talking about?

I'm not trying to provoke a reaction, the reaction was there before I did the experiment, and I am trying to defuse the reaction which was there before that came up.

The experiment shows that those 20 grand elves are dead, there is nothing more to it. I like the scientific method rather than mindless accusations.

I could have given the grand elves the ice bolt spell and slayer spell, but I didn't, I gave no heroes any spells, neither did I give them any war machines. I gave them two heroes with equal stats, 1 titan on the left side and 20 grand elves on the right side. The computer controlled both sides.

I performed a second test, this time the Grand Elves got an extra attack, the Titan didn't, and it won again. There are 20 dead grand elves on the ground. Fair fight. Just get over that thing, move on.

I performed a third test, I changed the hero that has the Titan to the lousy Fafner (Which has nagas as specialty) and the grand elves got an extra attack this time too, and the Titan won again.

The fourth test, I increased the number of Grand Elves to 30, and kept Fafner hero for the Titan, amazingly the Grand Elves got an extra attack this time too, a third time and the Titan didn't, but the Titan lost and they had only 5 grand elves left after the battle. If they didn't have that extra attack the Titan would have won against those 30 grand elves.

All battles done with no spell casting, if there would have been spellcasting, we could probably have increased the number of grand elves to 40 and still have won with a single Titan.

Of course you could say "Well in a human vs human battle, things can turn out very differently", but this is just a test of the pure and basic limits in a clean fight, without any human tactics involved, which can be used against any unit, not just titans or grand elves.

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