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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 06:35 PM |
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Read this post if you work with more than 1 main hero
I usually work with 3 main heroes, you work with 2 or 3 or more.
I want to say one thing: One on the main heroes SHOULD be a 'good' hero. (Castle, Rampart, Tower) Why?
We are playing an XXL 8 players all v all map. You defeated your first enemy, main heroes have lot of artifacts that you HAVE TOO, for example this +1 - +3 primary skills artifacts, or this eagle eye bonus artifacts, or the '____ of legion' artifacts. You must put them away, because your backpack isn't infinite big.
And here comes my tactic. My first and second hero struggle, collect experience ... so do the job, and THE THIRD IS THE GOOD HERO, the first 2 hero give artifact to him/her, and he/she sells it in Altar of Sacrifice. This is a very good experience for this hero.
I hope I could help. 
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 08:03 PM |
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swinm said:
What about the Valeska and Ingham heroes?
These heroes +
These heroes have worse skill trees and primary statistics distribution than any barbarian, overlord, beastmaster, death knight or demoniac. In my book that means they are bad.
swinm said:
Angel's resurrection
And you can use it without archery, whoa. Or even without Valeska, or Ingham. Amazing. Almost as if it was completely irrelevant to how good archery is(o is not).
swinm said:
if you are good player, they will survive until late game.
And if you are both a good player and play competetively then they will not be main force in your army, even though they survive. Because angels from conservatories and wyverns from hives will. And because meele units can't be easily neutralised in final battle, whereas archers can.
swinm said:
I understand you all don't like Resistance but R is still much better than this Tactics, Learning, Eagle Eye etc..
Tactics is better than resistance, because tactics allows you to take battles against archers very early on. That translates into faster progress. And it is useful, even gamechanging many times. While resistance is only useful against opponents main hero, and even that is what, 20% of time?
swinm said:
I usually work with 3 main heroes, you work with 2 or 3 or more.
I want to say one thing: One on the main heroes SHOULD be a 'good' hero. (Castle, Rampart, Tower) Why?
We are playing an XXL 8 players all v all map. You defeated your first enemy, main heroes have lot of artifacts that you HAVE TOO, for example this +1 - +3 primary skills artifacts, or this eagle eye bonus artifacts, or the '____ of legion' artifacts. You must put them away, because your backpack isn't infinite big.
And here comes my tactic. My first and second hero struggle, collect experience ... so do the job, and THE THIRD IS THE GOOD HERO, the first 2 hero give artifact to him/her, and he/she sells it in Altar of Sacrifice. This is a very good experience for this hero.
Now this is wrong on many levels.
First, Neutral type of heroes can use that strategy too(assuming that using it actually makes sense). So barbarians, beastmasters and planewalkers are welcome to join.
Second, three main heroes? That means none of them will develop as fast as a single main hero, because they will either have to share experience or split army to work effectively. Which means they won't be able to take as tough fights as single main, like dragon utopia or big griffin conservatory early. Which means the progress is even slower.
Developing several mains is an option for late game, when you are so strong you can split army and ot suffer consequences, or when you can use tp and dd to get full army back to your main in the end of turn. But several mains before week 3 is not optimal.
And finally, I think all these artifacts will be put to better use when you sell them in artifact merchant. Especially late game, when you need gold for upgrading army.
Cheers
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 25, 2015 08:14 PM |
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Well, I think everyone should specify type of game (single, human vs human) and also type of map (custom heavy, custom normal or random). Setup of skills differ a lot depending the map you play. Take for example Xiedu or Wayfarer, there is a balance of various skills between several main heroes. But anyway, they will all have intelligence and wisdom as common ground.
Then you have normal custom, where computer gives the challenge of a panda, hence you can pick for fun all wrong skills and still win at 200%.
Then there is multiplayer, and there you have two branches, custom maps and today's templates. On custom maps you can improvise a lot, depending on guards and skirmish delay. On today's templates, we have the most boring ever gameplay, where you have to go for same skills again and again because the issue will depend on, seeing that armies will be almost identical. But that's it, when you separate players by heavy guarded zones, then gameplay tends to become repetitive, in my opinion.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 01:01 AM |
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As far as I know quite a large part of templates played currently does not really fit your description, for instance 8mm6a, 6lm10a, spider.
But just to specify, I refer to the conditions that are currently common to competetive online gameplay, which is random maps with symmetric zones layout regarding red/blue positions, sized L+U or larger, no water. Played with some rudimentary rules such as no cloak of undead king and no diplomacy.
And I think my points will translate almost exactly into most pvp custom maps of the given size and water content.
Cheers
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 26, 2015 12:16 PM |
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Yes you are right, anything larger than medium and with underground will promote the natural fighting skills setup.
Personally I never played anything else than medium without underground -this is a legacy and a habit from Heroes II multiplayer usage-, delaying players meeting more than 2-3 days is not fun for me. Scouts wars, trickeries, hit and run, red rush, invisible chains behind the fog of war, there are many tactic where the skills pick is secondary, yet you get a plain but a different Heroes. Sometimes the game goes enough long time until you can setup a main hero, then you go the standard way, as in larger maps.
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 02:04 PM |
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Edited by woj at 14:04, 26 Jun 2015.
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Kicferk said:
Tactics is better than resistance, because tactics allows you to take battles against archers very early on. That translates into faster progress. And it is useful, even gamechanging many times. While resistance is only useful against opponents main hero, and even that is what, 20% of time?
Yeah 90% of time I play swamp tazar or bron, tactics is way better for any beastmaster and I guess for any hero.
Thorgrim owns, but with others hero than him I decided to pick an extra school instead of resistance. Having earth, water and air is superb for beastmaster you can counter anything thrown at you.
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 03:45 PM |
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Kicferk said:
swinm said:
What about the Valeska and Ingham heroes?
These heroes +
These heroes have worse skill trees and primary statistics distribution than any barbarian, overlord, beastmaster, death knight or demoniac. In my book that means they are bad.
swinm said:
Angel's resurrection
And you can use it without archery, whoa. Or even without Valeska, or Ingham. Amazing. Almost as if it was completely irrelevant to how good archery is(o is not).
swinm said:
if you are good player, they will survive until late game.
And if you are both a good player and play competetively then they will not be main force in your army, even though they survive. Because angels from conservatories and wyverns from hives will. And because meele units can't be easily neutralised in final battle, whereas archers can.
swinm said:
I understand you all don't like Resistance but R is still much better than this Tactics, Learning, Eagle Eye etc..
Tactics is better than resistance, because tactics allows you to take battles against archers very early on. That translates into faster progress. And it is useful, even gamechanging many times. While resistance is only useful against opponents main hero, and even that is what, 20% of time?
swinm said:
I usually work with 3 main heroes, you work with 2 or 3 or more.
I want to say one thing: One on the main heroes SHOULD be a 'good' hero. (Castle, Rampart, Tower) Why?
We are playing an XXL 8 players all v all map. You defeated your first enemy, main heroes have lot of artifacts that you HAVE TOO, for example this +1 - +3 primary skills artifacts, or this eagle eye bonus artifacts, or the '____ of legion' artifacts. You must put them away, because your backpack isn't infinite big.
And here comes my tactic. My first and second hero struggle, collect experience ... so do the job, and THE THIRD IS THE GOOD HERO, the first 2 hero give artifact to him/her, and he/she sells it in Altar of Sacrifice. This is a very good experience for this hero.
Now this is wrong on many levels.
First, Neutral type of heroes can use that strategy too(assuming that using it actually makes sense). So barbarians, beastmasters and planewalkers are welcome to join.
Second, three main heroes? That means none of them will develop as fast as a single main hero, because they will either have to share experience or split army to work effectively. Which means they won't be able to take as tough fights as single main, like dragon utopia or big griffin conservatory early. Which means the progress is even slower.
Developing several mains is an option for late game, when you are so strong you can split army and ot suffer consequences, or when you can use tp and dd to get full army back to your main in the end of turn. But several mains before week 3 is not optimal.
And finally, I think all these artifacts will be put to better use when you sell them in artifact merchant. Especially late game, when you need gold for upgrading army.
Cheers
I said that we collected experience with 2 main heroes, not 3. 2 heroes are okay, and if enemy is rolling around with 1 big hero and big army, we will have 2 good heroes. (not in early, in the middle game) This 2-3 heroes tactic is mostly not about experience: we just visit all primary skill upgraders with these heroes.
Well, if you 'make' a 2nd main hero in the late game, a lot of time will be spent with visiting all primary skill upgraders and knowledge trees etc.
Why did I mention Angel's resurrection? Because AI will always shoot the Archers. You resurrect them, and they survive.
Well, I'm not the player who has 7 different level 7 units in the late game, I like town sets.
Why do you like tactics? 90% of the battles begin with haste / slow / sthing level 1 spells, and after these, tactic doesn't matter. (and when both heroes have tactic)
Artifact =} Exp is better than Artifact =} Money IMO, In the late game we have hundreds of thousands money
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 04:07 PM |
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swinm said:
Well, if you 'make' a 2nd main hero in the late game, a lot of time will be spent with visiting all primary skill upgraders and knowledge trees etc.
If you make second man late game you will have powerful artifacts to give you enough stats to deal with anything the map can throw at you. Making second main is usually done to clear map faster, not to have 2 badass heroes nstead of one. You still want to get into final battle with better of your heroes.
swinm said:
Why did I mention Angel's resurrection? Because AI will always shoot the Archers. You resurrect them, and they survive.
So you say I should not use archers in tough fights until I have archangels? Way to go, giving opponent 2 or 3 weeks of advantage.
swinm said:
Well, I'm not the player who has 7 different level 7 units in the late game, I like town sets.
And I like winning. Everyone can play like they want to, but sticking to a single town just because you like it is not an optimal way of playing, or even an effective one.
Even if you exclude conservatories and hives, ban necromancy and demon farming, you can still get a lot of good army in treasure areas either from boxes or from dwellings. Ignoring them is not a good idea.
swinm said:
Why do you like tactics? 90% of the battles begin with haste / slow / sthing level 1 spells, and after these, tactic doesn't matter. (and when both heroes have tactic)
I like tactics because what you say is incorrect for competetive multiplayer. First off, you don't have expert air early, expert tactics is an option for several decent heroes. Secondly, using tactics is free, and haste is not. Third, starting a battle with haste or slow is a terrible mistake, because opponent likely has both haste and slow, and will counter. And use his powerstacks to kick the hell out of your powerstacks for 2 rounds straight, and he will even get fist casting next round.
swinm said:
Artifact =} Exp is better than Artifact =} Money IMO, In the late game we have hundreds of thousands money
If you have lots of money late game then you likely have not been playing to full capacity. Maybe you didn't develop a powerstack from all the dwellings around because you liked your base town army more. Maybe you went for capitol instead of going for creatures. Late game for me means week 4+ on XL+U. Hundreds of thousands of gold never happens then.
To sum up, you could specify your playstyle so that I don't have to make assumptions about you as we go. The assumptions I would make now are: you likely don't play much competetive online multiplayer, you probably go for capitol early, and your games last several months. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 04:43 PM |
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Edited by swinm at 16:48, 26 Jun 2015.
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Kicferk said:
If you make second man late game you will have powerful artifacts to give you enough stats to deal with anything the map can throw at you. Making second main is usually done to clear map faster, not to have 2 badass heroes nstead of one. You still want to get into final battle with better of your heroes.
If you use 2nd hero for this, but my opinion is not that. All the heros can fight, only the FINAL battle has to be the main hero's.
Kicferk said:
So you say I should not use archers in tough fights until I have archangels?
No.
Kicferk said:
And I like winning. Everyone can play like they want to, but sticking to a single town just because you like it is not an optimal way of playing, or even an effective one.
If I have 5 Towers, 4 Castles, 3 Dungeons, the main hero will have Tower army. Max 1 or 2 stacks are replaced with level 7 units or other powerful ones.
Kicferk said:
Even if you exclude conservatories and hives, ban necromancy and demon farming, you can still get a lot of good army in treasure areas either from boxes or from dwellings. Ignoring them is not a good idea.
I don't exclude them, I used to collect angels by conservatories etc. I jut don't like mixes like the 180% Ai does:
5 level 7 units, one stack of these PowerDragons (purple,blue,red,orange) and something else.
Kicferk said:
I like tactics because what you say is incorrect for competetive multiplayer. First off, you don't have expert air early, expert tactics is an option for several decent heroes. Secondly, using tactics is free, and haste is not. Third, starting a battle with haste or slow is a terrible mistake, because opponent likely has both haste and slow, and will counter. And use his powerstacks to kick the hell out of your powerstacks for 2 rounds straight, and he will even get fist casting next round.
I never start battles with spells, I ALWAYS wait with all units. And AI casts something, and attacks the weakest unit, and slaughter begins. For this tactic, I dont need tactics (lol  )
Kicferk said:
If you have lots of money late game then you likely have not been playing to full capacity. Maybe you didn't develop a powerstack from all the dwellings around because you liked your base town army more. Maybe you went for capitol instead of going for creatures. Late game for me means week 4+ on XL+U. Hundreds of thousands of gold never happens then.
To sum up, you could specify your playstyle so that I don't have to make assumptions about you as we go. The assumptions I would make now are: you likely don't play much competetive online multiplayer, you probably go for capitol early, and your games last several months. Correct me if I'm wrong.
check this picture, I made for you:
[url=http://kephost.com/image/SAzn]picture[/url]
Yeah, I build Capitol first
Yeah, I don't rush
Yeah, I collect army from castles in the early and middle game, In the late game, I collect from main castles and other castles' level 7 units
I haven't played much multiplayer, because it's impossible to play with the same 8 players 2 different times, so Impossible to finish a game from the beginning to end. (real XL Underground map)
Yeah, my games are months long but that's why I enjoy homm3.
I think you have seen this maps before (picture), so you know what type of maps I play on.
Early game: before the 2nd town
Middle game: from 2nd town to first enemy pwnt (somehow)
Late game: from first enemy pwnt to win/fail.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 10:18 PM |
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Well, I still don't see how archangels have enything to do with Valeska or Ingham being good heroes.
But back to strategies of gameplay. I don't take issue with you playing however you like it. But going for capitol first and not rushing is not a winning strategy against opposing human, especially on the type of maps you showed. So any reccomendation of skills you give based on this style of play will have little relevance to people who want to play competetively.
For example, you do not rush, so I see why tactics is not useful to you. But that does not change the fact that tactics is bloody useful when you try to progress and develop fast.
Since you play against AI I can see why tactics in final battle does not seem to be very useful to you. But that does not change the fact that it is bloody useful when playing against a human.
Cheers
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 12:01 AM |
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I just saw a guy selling the Sphere of Permanence for a few resources. How frequent do you think this would be if the probability of human enemys Dispel all your bufferings was the same it is with computer?
Sphere is one of my favorite artifacts against hard AI oponents, almost at the same level of Black Orb.
Most streams of good players end up with two heroes with the same creatures in the 1st and 2nd powerstacks and quite exactly the same secondary skills. While one can say it was the result of experience, it is today a pre-made choice. One player knows what to expect from the other.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2015 12:38 AM |
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This is what I was saying. You see a stream, you saw them all.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 12:54 AM |
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Salamandre said:
This is what I was saying. You see a stream, you saw them all.
Yeah, I was agreeing with you. Just found an illustrative example.
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 11:08 AM |
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2 main heroes with same sec skills?
I understand, it is good when heroes has the same ____ magic skills, but why have to collect exactly the same 8?
There isn't an absolute winner 8 skills collection.
I read somewhere here that one hero should have Scholar.
What about it?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 01:33 PM |
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swinm said:
2 main heroes with same sec skills?
Two mains, one from player A, one from player B.
swinm said:
There isn't an absolute winner 8 skills collection
No, there is a 7 skills absolute winner: logistics, earth, offense armorer, tactics, wisdom and air. The 8th is circunstancial.
swinm said:
I read somewhere here that one hero should have Scholar.
What about it?
Just use your brain: you want to pass spells from other heroes (namely scouts with spells you still don't have) to your main. So, one hero must have expert scholar and advanced wisdom.
It doesn't need to be the main and there are advantages and desadvantages in being the main. Advantages, everytime main meets a scout he updates his spells. Deadvantages, main loses a slot, everytime he meets a scout, the scout also learns all spells you know, so if you dismiss him you increase your enemy's chance of finding someone in the tavern with spells he still doesn't have.
But truth being said, I don't see the good competitive players so worried about this as I usually am.
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 01:40 PM |
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Edited by woj at 13:47, 27 Jun 2015.
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for beastmaster water may be better than air though
swinm said:
I read somewhere here that one hero should have Scholar.
What about it?
6 different heroes start with slow in spellbook
8 with haste
7 with shield
7 with dispel or cure
slow and haste are crucial spells, if you don't have them it may cost you a game vs human player. You only need a hero with scholar and a hero from tavern with that spell to teach them to your main.
expert scholar allows you to learn spells like town portal, resurrection, prayer without having to visit that town(which maybe on the other side of map) you just need a hero with expert scholar to transfer it to your main, big logistic advantage
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 03:25 PM |
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woj said:
for beastmaster water may be better than air though
Not the way competitive games are played nowadays. Most templates have enouch conservatories and hives to make 1st and 2nd powerstacks from them, so teleporting a few hydras will not be such a optimal option has you may think. Also, most of the times the so expect final battle will occur on the ground, not with a loser hidding behind the walls of his capital, that's reserved for AI.
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 04:08 PM |
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Edited by woj at 16:16, 27 Jun 2015.
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bloodsucker said:
woj said:
for beastmaster water may be better than air though
Not the way competitive games are played nowadays. Most templates have enouch conservatories and hives to make 1st and 2nd powerstacks from them, so teleporting a few hydras will not be such a optimal option has you may think. Also, most of the times the so expect final battle will occur on the ground, not with a loser hidding behind the walls of his capital, that's reserved for AI.
Mass bless(hydras 25-45, flies 2-5 etc), mass dispel/cure if you're lucky mass prayer(don't need haste then) and clone are very good for fortress. If you have prayer water is better. It's more probable to get haste but water spells are awesome for swamp.
But ok I guess you are right that in most cases air is more sure option, but it's not like water has only teleport. Anyways I hate to choose between those and dump lame resistance to get the 3rd school.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 04:29 PM |
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woj said:
But ok I guess you are right that in most cases air is more sure option, but it's not like water has only teleport. Anyways I hate to choose between those and dump lame resistance to get the 3rd school.
Sorry, I took your grin by "teleport", it was an extrapolation. I too would choose Water or Fire for the 8th skill (if presented) but my point was not what I would choose, was how confident one can be Water is not in adversary's set of skills and how this preditability means competitive game (in most used templates) is fixed on these choices.
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 11:28 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
No, there is a 7 skills absolute winner: logistics, earth, offense armorer, tactics, wisdom and air. The 8th is circunstancial.
This 7 skills set is far not winner on maps with lot of islands. (I know you play on only land in human vs human)
Well used Archery > Armorer imo
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