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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 01:33 PM |
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Quote: Ban elemental balance?
No reason, with phantom & mind control there are enough tricks left, so all pieces of puzzle fall into place.
Quote: Do you have QM always when playing Destructive?
Yes, you can balance area spells at that cost that limiting their utility only for rare situation, because cost is the less important thing while 10 or 20 is cheap (for 200+ mana pool), but if you start nerfing the damage, for example, to "equal" implosion and meteor shower, then you fail with it, because having implosion with greate damage and meteor with poor damage no one wants to use meteor at 99% times.
I'm not sure what you are saying, because I'm not nerfing any spells. But if destructive casters constantly need to switch between different damage spells, that is a good thing, because it enhances the mind game and makes the gameplay less repetitive.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 01:38 PM |
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Quote: Hello, its me again. About this error rmg map load failed it appears on every H55.map without lake map template. When there is no water on map loading fails but when there is water it just works and there is no RMG map prefix in lobby.
Hello dicanio, thanks for coming back on this, the included water maps were processed with RTMG tool from Simonak that changes the folder structure of the map to Multiplayer instead of RMG.
RTMG Download
So somehow that fixes the issue in your setup.
Be careful however when using this tool, it will put a conflicting RTMG.pak in your data folder, so you always need to remove it after using the tool.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 01:43 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 13:55, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said: No reason, with phantom & mind control there are enough tricks left, so all pieces of puzzle fall into place.
You simply choose the most expensive way to solve this problem. And don't see how much expensive.
Ok, at one time I also indulged in similar reshuffles, when it seemed that this would be better but later refused this. Try it, suddenly it will work in this concrete case?
Quote: But if destructive casters constantly need to switch between different damage spells, that is a good thing, because it enhances the mind game and makes the gameplay less repetitive.
There will be no switch, only single-targeting spells if you try weakening area spells at primary damage, not secondary cost (but mana cost also may breake).
Yes, in TotE there are overpowered area spells, but it is very easy to overstep the stick in the other direction if weaken the area spells too much. Doing their cost higher is weaken and nerf.
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dicanio
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2017 01:46 PM |
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So there is no way to use ARMG to play LAN?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 01:59 PM |
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@dicanio: ? I just posted the likely solution, you need to
1.generate ARMG map
2.open and save it with RTMG tool
3.activate scripts with reanimation
4.delete RTMG.pak from the game's data folder.
lots of people have played ARMG maps in LAN, but I cannot explain why it doesn't work in your case (without RTMG).
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dicanio
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2017 02:04 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:07 PM |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2017 02:08 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:10 PM |
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Quote: Yes, in TotE there are overpowered area spells, but it is very easy to overstep the stick in the other direction if weaken the area spells too much. Doing their cost higher is weaken and nerf.
Can you list the costs of your damage spells?, because I'm not sure what we are even discussing here.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 02:12 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 14:41, 24 Sep 2017.
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So if you bravely move spells from one school to another, maybe you should look into alternative school division? Such as H3 system (Fire/Water/Earth/Air). At one time, I was addicted to this idea and even developed my own version of grouping spells, but as a result refused because can't distribute perks from the skillwheel for it enough good.
Quote: Can you list the costs of your damage spells?, because I'm not sure what we are even discussing here.
I had created list of area coefs, so multiplies them to single damage of spell, add any estimations of perks which you wish, and get cost simply proportional to square of relative total power of spells.
For example, line of LB/Fireball/Meteor (which have similar single damage, without counting any perks):
LB = 5 (base), Fireball = 15, Meteor = 25, Implosion (forced to 50 as in MMH5.5) is 30.
And Chain Lightning (1.6 LB Single) = (1.6*1.25)^2 = 4 times more = 20.
And Deep Freeze (2.0 LB) = 2^2 = 4 times more = 20. But plus vulnerability ~30-40 mana is fair (doesn't look weaker than Implosion).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:14 PM |
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@dredknight: that map does not have the multiplayer folder structure, I was talking about, Dicanio's error report is quite convincing on this. it might be interesting to add this feature to mapmixer even.
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dicanio
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2017 02:17 PM |
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Maybe there is problem with gameranger, what vpn are you using?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:21 PM |
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Quote: So if you bravely move spells from one school to another, maybe you should look into alternative school division? Such as H3 system (Fire/Water/Earth/Air). At one time, I was addicted to this idea and even developed my own version of grouping spells, but as a result refused because can't distribute perks from the skillwheel for it enough good.
Yes long time ago, I went through the same thought process. But now I like division Light/Dark/Order/Chaos better. My current moves do not conflict with Lore.
(In my latest plan I'm not moving magical immunity, I only move puppet master, arcane armor & teleport)
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2017 02:28 PM |
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@magnomagus, I made it by hand and activated scripts by hand. Not sure what messed up.
@Dicianno I can join you in game ranger so we can test the issue.
my nickname is the same there I am in the ToTe channel drop me a message.
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dicanio
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2017 02:30 PM |
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Okay, i found the problem, the MMH55_64.exe is problem, when i host the game it says the version is 3.0 and rmg map load failed, when i started with default h5_game.exe it says its 3.1 version and map is loading but 8 skills isnt working - i can click and click on this option in hot seat but it wont become marked.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:33 PM |
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Quote: @magnomagus, I made it by hand and activated scripts by hand. Not sure what messed up.
If it was made by hand I guess you started working from an RMG map because the folder structure is RMG.
@Nargott: I didn't know your base values like LB=5. But this is enough info, at least we pretty much agree on meteor shower. I think you exaggerate Implosion because in many battles tier 5-7 stacks don't vary much in strength (at least not in current H55 creature balance).
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2017 02:34 PM |
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Alright I think I know where is the problem.
Game ranger uses default h5_game.exe file always.
So to use the mod in MMH55 all players should:
1. Rename h5_game.exe -> h5_game(original).exe
2. rename MMH55_64.exe -> h5_game.exe
3. Launch game ranger and point to the h5_game.exe unless it is already detected.
4.Make a game and wait all players to join.
If you do not do this you will either play with broken mod or not at all. Same goes if just some of the players have done the change above and others have not. Let me know if you have done those changes as this will shed some light on where is the issue.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:38 PM |
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Quote from multiplayer guide on Moddb:
Quote: Tunngle has proven to be very stable and reliable, Gameranger can also work but you have to use a trick, rename the H5_Game.exe file to H5_Game_original and rename the MMH55.exe file (or MMH55_64.exe) to H5_Game.exe.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 02:46 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 15:07, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said: @Nargott: I didn't know your base values like LB=5. But this is enough info, at least we pretty much agree on meteor shower. I think you exaggerate Implosion because in many battles tier 5-7 stacks don't vary much in strength (at least not in current H55 creature balance).
5 from TotE. You may count 6 if you wish so, this is only multiplier (if 6 then fireball 18 not 15 etc.)
In PvP HRTA 5-7 tier stack doesn't vary much too. But even original Implosion (x2 damage to single relatively to meteor) looks not much worse than a meteor and has a good application.
There is important not only power of target unit but DPS, danger and current position on ATB, which are differ. So targeting single target has great value. Having 3 different targets for meteor often is less important than having double damage to single most important target. So meteor is stronger when it can damage 4+ targets that maybe not often as you want (if you play PvP, not versus AI who let you damage 5 stacks not only to meteor, but for fireball also).
So having your:
Quote: Implosion 2.5xLB = 15 mana
LB = 6 mana
means that player never wants to use LB instead of implosion, because implosion have the same ratio of damage per mana and 2.5 ratio damage per tempo (one turn of the hero). So x2.5 cost is unfair very much.
So if you have option what to do: play LB 1 time per turn, or play LB 2.5 times per turn (= Implosion) without any additional overpayment, you never choose to play single LB 2.5 times slower.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 03:07 PM |
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Quote: In PvP HRTA 5-7 tier stack doesn't vary much too. But even original Implosion (x2 damage to single relatively to meteor) looks not much worse than a meteor and has a good application.
It is also worth mentioning in regular games tier1-4 start growing much earlier sometimes, so can be relatively stronger than in duel games (where numbers are often fixed on weekly growth). For H55 I need to take this into account.
Quote: means that player never wants to use LB instead of implosion
In Hero vs Hero battle this is intended, I consider LB PvE spamming spell. 15 mana was calculated minimum cost, I estimate true value around 20 mana currently, but may do some more comparison testing. I also think 40 is more valid cost for empowered implosion than 60.
Also in H55 all spells are vulnerable to corruption perks for all factions, that will boost cost by 50%. I like this as good spamming counter for might heroes.
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