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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 08:24 PM |
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Nargott said:
@thGryphn:
Why did you write this, if I said that these numbers (caps) don't work?
At TotE 3.1 exactly, but at 3.0 or at MMH5.5 exe I haven't check, so there is a small probability that I'm wrong, but you must check it before discussing the change of caps which is most likely technically impossible unless fixing in exe.
Look, I don't appreciate the bossy and over-confident attitude.
Second, where/when exactly did you say the caps don't work? You just assumed wrongly that I'm using a theoretical model (wtf?), while I am using the damage calculation formula that is known to be factual for ages. Now, if you claim that the caps do not work as I say they do, you have to show that they don't work.
Third, mine was a long post and yours ninja'd me, so I hadn't read whatever you wrote (which wouldn't stop me from writing what I wrote anyway, but wth).
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 08:35 PM |
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When I had wrote about caps:
Quote:
I had also suggested to change the upper and lower limits of damage modification (due to difference between stats) to 2.5 and 0.4, respectively.
These numbers don't work if you don't fix it in your exe.
You may set these stats upper than caps and make sure that the caps do not work.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 02, 2017 08:37 PM |
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Quote:
Recently, I can not open any games created by the editor. The game crashes with an error message. Even if I create a simple random game with no other settings with the editor, this game crashes. I am using ToE 3.1 and MMH5.5 64 bit. Does anyone have some tips on settings in Windows 10 (bootcamp partition)?
The last time someone reported this, he made clean reinstall and it was gone.
Quote:
An alternative value of 120 translates to DamageIncreaseCap=4.0 and DamageDecreaseCap=0.25. The positive about this is that it gives a much larger effective range for D-A and A-D, which in turn keeps rewarding A and D boosters even in late game.
I will probably set it to this, at least to make the defaultstats look good , but if the game stays at 3 and 0.1 it is not a big issue since differences above 80A are mostly theoretical.
Quote:
Don't understand why this idea is better than enforcing and rising in price high-level spells. So these negative numbers look very strange.
The benefits are fairly obvious if you look from the perspective of balancing games of different length.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 09:01 PM |
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Nargott said:
When I had wrote about caps:
Quote:
I had also suggested to change the upper and lower limits of damage modification (due to difference between stats) to 2.5 and 0.4, respectively.
These numbers don't work if you don't fix it in your exe.
You may set these stats upper than caps and make sure that the caps do not work.
OK, I see now, but whether they work or not is not established.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 09:03 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 21:12, 02 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
The benefits are fairly obvious if you look from the perspective of balancing games of different length.
For me are not obvious. Because even if you have ~80 mana in "early game" you may use 40-mana high spells at least once if they are more effective than original 20-mana spells, for example.
thGryphn said:
OK, I see now, but whether they work or not is not established.
In 3.1 TotE is established that doesn't work, so until it is refuted with checking at MMH5.5 exe, it can be considered as non-working.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 02, 2017 09:12 PM |
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Quote:
magnomagus said:The benefits are fairly obvious if you look from the perspective of balancing games of different length.
For me are not obvious.
Ok then I will try to explain it again simple:
It allows for less damage early, more damage late and no change in the middle.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 09:13 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 21:18, 02 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Ok then I will try to explain it again simple:
It allows for less damage early, more damage late and no change in the middle.
So this is fair for my variant too.
You can use low-level spells more efficiently because of higher cost and damage or influence, but unless you have much mana in later game, you can't use top-level spells many times, so overall magic influence is lesser in "earlier" game when we compare enforced low-level spells with older high-level spells for the same low cost (~20 mana).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 02, 2017 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
So this is fair for my variant too.
yes if you want to categorize spells more strictly to phases of the game and have them grow less with the hero.
EDIT: Your method also creates less room for accommodating to +50% and -50% elemental artifacts.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 09:36 PM |
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magnomagus said:
EDIT: Your method also creates less room for accommodating to +50% and -50% elemental artifacts.
Why?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 02, 2017 09:39 PM |
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Quote:
Why?
There are only a few spells for every element, so if the aligned spell is too weak or too strong because of lack of scaling the artifacts become useless.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 02, 2017 11:26 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 23:47, 02 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
There are only a few spells for every element, so if the aligned spell is too weak or too strong because of lack of scaling the artifacts become useless.
I don't think so, because this system support cheap spells too, as they have more profit at influence per mana.
In later game if you have implosion for 20, you want to play it often, because 20 mana is cheap, but if your implosion cost 80, even if it is 2 times stronger, in PvE you must use actively cheaper spells because don't have enough mana.
So it is the general profit of system 5-10-20-40-80, you can't use similar spells from the same weight cathegory. At the most important moment you want to use the most powerful spell, at the less important you must choose less powerful (or have very big knowledge). So all spells weight cathegories may be in-demand at different moments during the battle.
Imagine the final battle (more clear example) and 200-300 mana, in which situation 5-mana spells are more in-demand:
1) there are only cheapest top spells for ~20 mana
2) there are expensive top spells for ~40-80 mana
In first situation you simply spam top spells for ~20 mana during all the battle, because when you don't have expensive spells, you have less reason to save your mana.
For example, your mana spent may be like:
1st spell = 80
2nd spell = 80
3rd spell = 40
4th spell = 20
5th spell = 10
6-9th spell = 5
Total = 250
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dredknight
Honorable
Legendary Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 02, 2017 11:55 PM |
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What Magno refers to is that the demand for huge mana of your spells will require high starting damage.
High starting damage will make the +50% artifacts very strong. Basically you can wipe out one (or many of area spells) with single blast in PvP and PvE which reduces tactical approach (one cast decides it all) in PvE and PvP, makes the game too easy for mages and last but not least breaks the balance because mages will destroy completely Might heroes.
I remember from our talk where you said that in defense you had a perk with 15% magic damage reduction and everyone considered it weak.
There are two reasons:
- magic damage is just too low and unflattering
- WGE mod architecture makes it broken because it utilize too few troops. In order to balance destruction, its spells damage is lowered so they kill just a few units. At the end the 15% perk just saves a piece of those few units which is nothing compared to your hyper strong other perks that give bonuses of 400% and can be used to break the enemy in a split second because he did not have the chance the balance back the perk or dark/light bless/curse spell that he used half ATB before his hero turn comes.
Also high flat damage will require lowering the damage from spellpower which will make the spell unusable in the late game due to low damage increase and high mana cost.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 12:06 AM |
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@Nargott:
You can keep arguing about it, but nothing will change that maximum scaling is more flexible, also there are not enough spells to have 1 element in each of the 5 categories (5-10-20-40-80), so if an enemy blocks one with -50% you are more likely to have a problem in your system.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 12:16 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 01:29, 03 Oct 2017.
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dredknight said:
What Magno refers to is that the demand for huge mana of your spells will require high starting damage.
Why starting damage?
Why not 90 * (Spellpower + 1), for 80-mana Implosion, for example?
Quote:
There are two reasons:
- magic damage is just too low and unflattering
- WGE mod architecture makes it broken because it utilize too few troops. In order to balance destruction, its spells damage is lowered so they kill just a few units. At the end the 15% perk just saves a piece of those few units which is nothing
I don't understand why you use an absolute scale, not relative scale. 15% is 15% and works the same way to 6 knights-army or to 120 knights-army. If you use same percents, the character of the battle will remain the same.
You write that 15% utilizes just a few units. So T3 spell by warlock kill ~50% of top enemy stack in WGE, is it weak to kill 3 knights from 6? I doubt that T3-spell in your later game can kill ~50% of top stack. So real influence of killing 3 knights in WGE is giant while killing 30 knights in your game (if you have 100+) is not.
If you ask, killing N creatures is great or not, it's impossible to answer it if you don't see at army size (current number of these creatures).
So weakness of 15% is not that 15% means too few units, but that 15% is only 15%.
Quote:
hyper strong other perks that give bonuses of 400%
What perks are you talking about? I do not remember that.
Average perks are only +25% stronger than in the TotE.
Did you mean "magic rush" when you cast Haste and Might spells on the same target increasing DPS to 400% total? So this is strong magic, but not perks.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 12:45 AM |
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Quote:
What Magno refers to is that the demand for huge mana of your spells will require high starting damage.
I'm sorry dk, but that was not what I was referring to. Fundamentally a negative base value allows me to apply the highest possible multiplier without overpowering early game.
It is however more important on low level spells than high level, because on low level it has very positive impact on neutrals like druids & archmages.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 01:17 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 01:33, 03 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
@Nargott:
You can keep arguing about it, but nothing will change that maximum scaling is more flexible, also there are not enough spells to have 1 element in each of the 5 categories (5-10-20-40-80), so if an enemy blocks one with -50% you are more likely to have a problem in your system.
But you have several T5 spells, haven't you? And T4 have 70-75% relative power.
In TotE if enemy blocks your Earth (Implosion and Meteor), you have the same problems.
dredknight said:
15% magic damage reduction and everyone considered it weak.
Although, the trick is that 15% is considered weak even by players of RTA (PvP arena) which is played without that mod (with "hyper perks" and "few creatures").
EDIT:
magnomagus said:
it has very positive impact on neutrals like druids & archmages.
Positive - yes. Very or not, it's a difficult question, depends on how many druids you start punching (with how much Spellpower per stack).
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dredknight
Honorable
Legendary Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 03, 2017 08:16 AM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
What Magno refers to is that the demand for huge mana of your spells will require high starting damage.
I'm sorry dk, but that was not what I was referring to. Fundamentally a negative base value allows me to apply the highest possible multiplier without overpowering early game.
It is however more important on low level spells than high level, because on low level it has very positive impact on neutrals like druids & archmages.
And this too  . I just wanted to point out whatever else I can get in mind.
I am trying to stop convincing @Nargott but he kind of gets me every time...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 12:26 PM |
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To determine spell multiplier at none, basic & advanced level: I mostly use expert level x0.8 x0.6 x0.5, which means 15% is weaker than shattering a level and 20% is equal to the first shattered level.
Of course it is supposed to be weaker, since shattering takes more valuable secondary skill slot.
armorer + forge master is sometimes powerful enough to make difference between winning and losing vs strong destructive caster. I have seen this in duel tests many times. But it is more risky than shatter destructive.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2017 01:34 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 13:42, 03 Oct 2017.
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Basic shattering influence only to 1-3 level spells and only the one magic school, so 15% armorer is stronger than 20% shattering, because is more universal (lower damage from 1-5 level destructive spells and lower magic damage from non-destructive sources also).
15% armorer is weak in TotE, because equals only to ~+2 stat (while normal perk is about +2.5 stat), so in your stats equals to +3 (3.33%) or +4 (2.5%) and may be considered even as strong (because many other "+2" perks are weaker).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 03, 2017 01:57 PM |
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