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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 30, 2009 10:33 PM |
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I could care less if someone disagrees with me. What I am objecting to is people being allowed to call me stupid, dishonest, a fool, an imposter and other insults . Yet I am warned that no amount of provocation justfies me "holding up a mirror."
I also object when a moderators appears to take sides and not only allow people of a certain viewpoint to be insulted but engage in the insults themselves.
I mostly limit myself to religious discussions and DO NOT bring up religion in off topic places. But certain other people seem to usually get around to turning many threads into religion bashing threads even if the thread has nothing to do with religion.
When they make unsupported claims of the Bible saying things it does not say I back up my position with what the Bible actually says. That is not preaching.
I'm not asking for any negative QPs to be given just for the moderators to tell others not to engage in insults against those they disagree with.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted August 31, 2009 12:06 AM |
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Elodin, I'm sure you understand the meaning of the picture. Whether you really complain too much or not, continuing to complain will not help.
I've taken your side in this issue because I think it's the right thing to do. But keep in mind that you aren't completely blameless either.
I've had my say, you've had yours, and so have a lot of other people. Maybe it's time for everyone involved to step back and take a deep breath.
Not to trivialize it, but insulting one person is only a small part of a much larger issue in the OSM. This thread is five years old and half of it is just from this year. It's pretty much always the same issues being brought up.
People keep looking to the mods or the COC to fix things. Do people really need such things to know how to be civil? People need to do it themselves. Mods and COC should only be the last resort.
To be honest, I don't think the people at HC are capable of being civil. Because I think they've started to take things way too seriously. We aren't going to solve the world's problems here. We aren't going to win our battles for what we think is right or wrong. But the OSM has somehow evolved into that type of thinking. People seem to have lost the ability to understand the difference between discussing important issues, and trying to force people into their way of thinking at any cost to the civility of HC.
I'm guilty too. There are times I get so freaking pissed about things in the OSM I can't do anything but walk away. That's not right. The mood has become way too serious. It's become way too hostile. Everyone is in a state of attack mode or defense mode, not discussion mode. It drives me away, and it drives a lot of other people away.
Come on, it's not really that important. I don't mean the issues themselves aren't important. I mean convincing someone else you are right isn't that important.
At least two mods have already been driven from the OSM because of the hostility. The mods and the COC aren't going to solve the problems. The mods can't stop a raging bull without using extreme measures that would likely not be acceptable by a lot of people (which is why I turned down being a mod twice, my methods would have been very decisive).
Unless people want a very strong handed HC with no human touch and common sense in the enforcement of the rules, then the members have to do it themselves. The purpose of rules is not so that people can get as close to the boundary as they can without breaking the rules. The rules are for the exceptions. They are for the people who aren't capable of doing it themselves.
It's not always a matter of whether you are right or wrong. Sometimes people should refrain from actions simply because it bothers other people, REGARDLESS of whether they understand or agree why they don't like it. The fact that people don't like something should be sufficient reason.
It's up to the members to do it. It's their choice. But I don't think it's going to change. I think too many people refuse to back down. Too many people want the last word. Too many people want to point fingers.
It's up to the members to do it. Either things will change or they won't. Which way will it be? The answer to that question won't be found in this thread.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 31, 2009 03:36 AM |
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Concerning the last few Binabik's posts here...
Seriously, someone give this man a QP.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 06:23 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 06:29, 31 Aug 2009.
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I happen to agree about the QP for Binabik. Elodin, you are not aware of everything, so I will forgive what could have been considered an insult to us Moderators.
As Jolly, Corribus, and many others can attest they have gotten HCM's ad nausium about both actual and percieved insults. From me. Personally. Me and a few of them have even mixed it up in several debates, because I AM a spiritual person and strongly believe in respecting others beliefs. Several people on the board are religious, spiritual, christian, etc. Yet the one that seems to have the most problem is yourself. Before you get all hot, let me explain. When the other people who are spiritual (religious, etc) debate yeah things can get a little testy. Sometimes it will even get down to just 'flaming' each other. It is the nature of the beast.
When it gets to far, we step in, break it up..and things cool down for a bit. They don't take things personally, however. Unfortunately you seem to take everything personally. Maybe it is that you might be a tad to sensitive? I have said it quite often. You can be a very enligntening poster. I've learned a thing or three from your posts. Honestly, however, you seem to take offense over everything, even small things. So maybe you need to step back and take a bigger picture approach.
I am personally fed up though. So I will tell you what. I am willing to step away for a bit. Let Angelito and Shadowcaster decide things here. Stop bothering to try to get people to act like grownups and show a little decency. I'll leave it to the community to decide this. Should I just sit back drinking boobin and tossquilas?
The OSM has lost Pan because of the catch 22. We are wrong if we do, we are wrong if we don't. Kooky is gone from the squad. The OSM needs to grow up a little, or there might not be anybody left.
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Message received.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 31, 2009 06:31 AM |
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I think you need to be reasonable Mytical.
If someone is insulting then step in. It's part of the job.
If it's within the COC then no need to be.
I think within reason.
Sometimes people need to speak out to get differences done.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 06:49 AM |
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Thing is Acu, I am reasonable. Most people here have no idea about what has really happend. Worse, because I value people's privacy, I can't really even explain it. People not wanting to post in the OSM (no naming names) because of the toxic atmosphere. Endless HCM's complaining, whining, and such. If I let things slide, I get one type of HCM. If I act, another. Both negative. I now know why certain mods got fed up with the OSM. There is NO correct way to do it. NONE.
You can't make even a majority happy, let alone everybody happy. This forum is supposed to be a place where people can debate freely, about anything. Yes, there are rules..but like Binabik said, unless things get really out of hand, they shouldn't actually be needed. People should be mature enough, and intelligent enough to have debates without resorting to name calling (or insults in general). Lets look at every other board, even the VW. For the most part, it is decent there. Sure there are some problems, but it is a much more relaxed place.
The OSM shouldn't be a place where your hackles rise and you start hissing at each other. People WILL have different opinions then you, they WILL think you have lost your ever loving mind, and they WILL tell you so. If you think Harry Potter is a deity that talks to you through your Ipod, that is your thing. Doesn't mean that if you bring passages in from Harry Potter that people are going to think the same.
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Message received.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 31, 2009 06:55 AM |
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That is what I have been saying for yrs lol.
Your doing your job, people like it or not.
Being a mod also means not making friends when it comes to doing your job.
If they hate you for it then that is on them.
As long as your fair.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2009 07:55 AM |
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Kill one, save a thousand  But then we can always silence 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 31, 2009 08:57 AM |
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I think people are taking Angelito's reply way too serious with the baby pic.
If he did not do it, I probally would of & not gave a rats crack lol.
The dude was crying on here & I would of advertised it 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 10:41 AM |
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One person alone is not guilty of that Jolly. There are many here who have that particular problem. Some are even CORRECT that they know things that others don't. (For instance Corribus..he knows things I could never even pretend to understand). When the problem starts, however, is when two of these people meet. If their absolute truths conflict (and they often will for there is no such thing as absolute truths. I am sure many will disagree with that statement..) then it turns into something like two rams. They just keep slamming their heads into each other, with their fingers in their ears screaming "NANANAN I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" ((Or so it seems))
I can be as guilty about that as anybody. Sometimes I realise I am slamming my head against a wall, and will just walk away from a conversation. Others can't seem to do that (even I get pulled back in from time to time as you well know). We all have somewhat of an Ego. Its hard to be the bigger person and just 'let it go'. If you ignore somebody's post long enough, they will get the point. Some people as long as they get a 'rise' out of people will just not stop. As soon as they realise they are no longer doing so...they get bored and leave.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted August 31, 2009 10:47 AM |
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JJ, that post is a perfect example of what has driven two mods and numerous members away from HC. It is 100% pure confrontation that misses the point entirely.
Good job JJ, you just made HC a worse place to be.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 10:53 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 10:58, 31 Aug 2009.
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Even if you disagree with somebody, you should respect their right to think however they want. If you just simply can't agree with them, nor discuss with them, then don't. If you think they are incapable of discussing, just don't try. Answer other peoples posts, talk about other aspects of the topic, and otherwise ignore them. If they ask why they are being ignored, ignore them.
Edit : This is more to the other mods, but please chime in. I suggest an 'amnesty' thread. Everybody gets a chance to say anything they want no -qp(within reason people). After 24 hours the thread is deleted. No quotes from that thread, and nothing is brought up from out of that thread. A chance to get things off peoples chest.
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 31, 2009 10:57 AM |
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Quote:
The dilemma is about Elodin saying that what he says is right because he is enlightend and knows the truth, with the consequence that he CANNOT be "wrong with some things".
It is unfortunate that you continue to make false claims about me sir.
Show where I have said "I am right because I am enlightened." Show me where I have said "I am enlightened." Show me where I have said because I am Pentecostal (speak in tongues) that you must believe what I say. Sir you are perhaps unaware that there are a great many Pentecostals in the world.
Any person can look at my posts and see that I back up my claims with Bible verses. Sometimes lots and lots of Bible verses. I have stated repeatedly that the New Testament is the source of Christian doctrine not any personal experiences that I have had. And it is on the Bible that I make my case.
You on the other hand have been making claims that Christians are this or that or the Bible says this or that and can't back up your claims.
Quote:
Which is the frustration then: no one wants to believe Elodin "in good faith" - his personal experience of enlightenment would be necessary for that; which is then what Elodin doesn't seem to get: that no one without his personal experience of enlightenment WILL believe him.
I'm sorry but you continue to make false claims about what I base my arguments on. I base my theological arguments on the Scripture.
Quote:
Which at a certain point is BOUND to become preaching/lecturing.
Sir, when a person is discussing Christianity or what the Bible says it is quite appropriate to quote the Bible.
It is unfortunate tha you now appear to be trying to paint me as a religious nutcase. I don't care if care if you think Pentecostals are nuts but I do think that you are taking quite a low road in this action.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 11:15 AM |
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Elodin. Here is the thing. Please read this with an open mind. I know several very good Christians that disagree with your interpretation of the quotes (I show them this site quite often). Now I am not saying yours is worse then, or theirs better then, but the thing is..it doesn't matter.
Quite simply...
1) you can post quotes from the bible to the cows come home. WE don't believe it to be the 'ultimate source'. NO THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS SAYING THAT 2+3=7. You believe it to say 2+3=5, we believe it to say 2+3=7 and WE are saying 2+3=5. You are never going to convince us, especially the way you are going about it, that it says 2+3=5. ((To borrow your example)). It would be the EXACT same as me telling YOU that Mein Kemp is the ultimate authority on things (no I don't believe that, just an example).
2) There ARE other interpretations of the bible. Regardless if you wish to acknowledge the fact or not. Just talk to ANY Catholic, Protestant, Old time Babtist. ANY ... AT ALL. Even a local preacher has acknowledged this fact.
3) Christians are human, Humans Err. Thus Christians Err. Even with 'killing' or 'murder'. That is where FORGIVENESS comes in. Implying (please note, I am not saying you are implying this) that the second a Christian kills (or murders, or whatever you wish to call it) he is not a Christian goes against the essence of the bible. Which is based on Forgiveness.
4) Using scripture to 'bash' things that are against Christianity is counter productive. You just push more people away. Not sure why this is not obvious to you. I am not saying do not use scripture, but expressing your OWN thoughts might go a longer way.
5) Forced politeness doesn't really help either. It comes accross as sarcasm and will not get any better reception. Talk to us as equals. Open and honest. Be a human that happens to be Christian. Not a bible thumper that happens to be human. You will get a lot further, and you might find that the tone changes rather quickly.
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Message received.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2009 11:36 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:38, 31 Aug 2009.
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@JJ&Elodin
Why don't you both just.. drop it? Simple enough no?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 11:37 AM |
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Yes sir . Dropping it sir 
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Message received.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 31, 2009 11:37 AM |
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2 Cents
I completely agree with Binabik. Nothing to add
JollyJoker, I understand you point, but don't point the finger at Elodin or Binabik. Give them a break will you. I have not forgotten your Discussions with GOW in CH, and we know to which conclusion that led.
Elodin, You know we don't share opinions regarding religion, but you really must stop present your own opinions as truths, for arguement's sake. People like JJ will dive on that like Vultures and drag long, pointless conversations (in which you yourself participate with much pleasure, I see). Not to mention that it annoys others.
You see, the problem that people don't participate is IMO (I'm not saying that it is like that, I may be completely wrong lol ) is caused by many factors.
First of all, certain members seem to have an almost masochistic pleasure in constant argueing and proving their right and other's wrong. Most OSM participants do not like to read other people's struggle for being right, or their own personal vendetta's. OSM is about discussing Life, in all of it's components - but not to argue (or preach) about it.
The Effects are logical: People leave OSM and crawl into the more pleasant fora (or under rocks), just to escape the drag-on-quote-wars in OSM. Don't you guys just see that there is no Nessecity of replying to every single detail in your rival's post? Like Binabik said, just because you are ALLOWED to express certain views doesn't mean you SHOULD express them.
Elodin just preaches his own (IMO dogmatic) views, to ultimate off-topicness, and JollyJoker ALWAYS feels the need to tell others what's right and what's wrong. I'm not saying that they are the only two people who are responsible for this mess. Their predesessors (EG: Mvass and TheDeath), had their slice of the Agruement Cake as well.
So let me ask you a question in return: Is it really that important to express your opinion, even if it contributes NOTHING to the thread, on the contrairy, if degenerates it to a drag-on Debate? Is it?
People are repulsed by all of this: (pointless!) Arguements that never end, Half-truths and Opinions that are presented like facts, and the Urge certain members feel to counter the previous two, eventhough they have no authority to do is.
Arrogance. Inaccuracy. Interference. The three things that destroyed OSM.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 31, 2009 11:39 AM |
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I don't think you are reading my posts.
Quote:
1) you can post quotes from the bible to the cows come home. WE don't believe it to be the 'ultimate source'.
Surely the Bible is the ultimate source when talking about what the Bible says or defining Christian doctrine.
Quote:
2) There ARE other interpretations of the bible.
Most verses are very easy to interpret. Ther are not different interpretations for every verse.
Statements like "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar" can only be interpreted on way. The context of "1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" can only be taken as no Christian murders. Anyone who claims to be a Christian who murders is a liar according to the Bible.
Quote:
3) Christians are human, Humans Err. Thus Christians Err. Even with 'killing' or 'murder'.
Yes, Christins err. No, they don't murder. They don't blow up abortion clinics or shoot abortion doctors. The New Testament disagrees with your position and it is the New Testament that defines Christianity.
Quote:
4) Using scripture to 'bash' things that are against Christianity is counter productive.
I'm not the one who has been bashing things. Show me where I have been bashing things.
Quote:
5) Forced politeness doesn't really help either. It comes accross as sarcasm and will not get any better reception. Talk to us as equals. Open and honest. Be a human that happens to be Christian. Not a bible thumper that happens to be human. You will get a lot further, and you might find that the tone changes rather quickly.
That is rather funny. I am not the one who has been insulting people. I have been appealing to the moderators to stop people from insulting me and asking one of the moderators to stop insulting me.
I have not been talking down to others. I don't go around "Bible thumping." But if we are discussing the Bible or Christianity it is certainly appropriate for me to quote the Bible.
I do not mean this to be an offensive statment to anyone. I don't think it matters how I speak. I can continue to speak in a normal tone. I can speak with utmost politeness. I will still be condemned and insulted because of my beliefs and to be honest I expect that ther willl be no repercussions for them doing so. That is just my opinion based on current events.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 11:47 AM |
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Then it may just be time to close down religious threads. Since nobody can seem to get along, and nobody wants to give any. Just lock them, do away with them, and if anybody brings religion up penalize.
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Message received.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2009 11:56 AM |
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Come on, silence those who are asking for it at the given time After the first few times they may get the hint. And of course give a break for the rest to enjoy the discussion.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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