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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -TOWER-
Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -TOWER- This thread is 17 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 · «PREV / NEXT»
ebonheart
ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted May 03, 2016 12:45 PM
Edited by ebonheart at 12:48, 03 May 2016.

Anil said:
Not a very good town. Below average town. Because;

1) Lacking hero department. Has a lot of bad Heroes. Has only 1 gold speciality unit. Neela is good but scholar is useless.Solmyr is good but can be stopped, with pendant of negativity, cursed grounds, thorgrim, orb of Inhibition, Recanter's Cloak.

2) Slow town. Opposition will almost always get first attack with faster units.

3) Very Expensive town. Tower is probably doomed to lose in small maps.

4) No magic resistance or immunity (Except Titans)

5) Native terrain is problem.

6) Gremlin, Gargoyle and Genie are below-average units.

Also this town is not enjoyable. Use mass slow spell and shoot with your shooters. Very ordinary.



I find this town to be in the top tier ranked 1-3.
1. Wizards are bad main heroes but excellent secondary ones. Neela is robust if no greater hero shows up in the tavern.
2. Slow town but with the most durable army. It also puts more preassure on your enemy both army and spell wise as they are outclassed in ranged firepower and need to advance, and if they do, the tower can counter with a mass slow.
3. It is indeed weak on small maps but a master gremlin stack on d1 on small maps is quite powerful.
4. Uhm you forgot golems. You also forgot that gargoyles and golems are immune to certain spells and effects, eg vampire drain.
5. The native army does not suffer this penalty.
6. A 300-700 Gremlin stack (depending on map losses and workshops) can be even more deadly than the Titans in the endfight if left unchecked or powered by the M-genies. The gargoyle is weak but you save them to be used as dragon fodder anyway. M-genies are awesome, either as a secondary buffer or blocker of own/enemy ranged troops or as a retail soaker when split to 1. it is also not too shaby damage wise if the enemy unit has burnt its retaliation.

As for your last line, how you feel about playing the town has nothing to do with how the town performs.
Ps: The best artifact for tower to have is the very same red orb that you proposed as a counter to Solymr (who is pretty snowty). Since the enemy can't tie you up in time without coming in 2 waves of advancement.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 03, 2016 05:13 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 17:19, 03 May 2016.

I think the idea that Tower is bad cames only from MP, where the melee units taken from banks have an heavy role and they used quite effective tactics to nullify the shooters.
I've heard a lot of trash talk about how HotA new banks for tower and stronghold shooters made the town more playable and Archery better. Non-sense, if your enemy is over you in two/three weeks forget Tower (strangelly enouch if you can fight him in 3/4 days choose Tower), you not only need giants and castle, you need to upgrade the Cloud Castle for it to be as effective as any other town.
But if you are going against AI with strong blocks on the way (like Jebus for instance) then Tower line-up is quite effective, you only need to be lucky with the creature banks in your way to overcome the lack of strong fliers.
If playing a XL or XXL map against several AI opponents the game will not be over in three weeks like it happens in MP and after several months of play creature banks are way less valuable and the moment you get another town that allows you to reinforce your line-up with a strong flier you have it all.

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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2018 06:04 PM

I have no idea why was Tower buffed in hotA even though Tower had needed to get nerfed. Their top units are ridiciosly strong plus 7.th level dwelling is too cheap.

Titan's dwelling require total 25.000 in HotA while for example  Forsaken Palace require 35.000 gold although Titan is much more superior unit and in my opinion the best 7.th level unit. It is ranged unit and ranged units were supposed to be a bit fragile but 300 HP is for Titns are too much. Also they deal huge damage. Definitely imbalanced unit.

Naga Queens are also too powerful 110 HP+30 fixed damage and no enemy retaliation ability? Another game breaking unit.

I don't know other people's specific PvP rules but I always ban tower along with Rampart in HotA

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 03, 2018 06:21 PM

To play In The land of Nod in SoD, and then HotA and WoG. It after you can speak about Tower also Conflux in other thread. A orthodox map
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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2018 06:35 PM

Every town can be stronger and weaker in specific maps but I mean Titans and Naga Queens are imbalanced units. I consider this town overpowered in HotA.
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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 03, 2018 06:54 PM

No worries, I wrote to all member. Ok Titan and Naga Queen, I can't say anything, to play In The land of Nod, you can see Tower has cultural/spirit game.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 03, 2018 07:05 PM

Ok, here's my opinion on Tower:


Advantages

The biggest advantages are without a doubt the tier 6 and 7 creatures. Sure, people will always say that their specials (mana reduction of the magi, the library building, etc.) are pluses, too, but... all these pluses wouldn't be able to bring victories for Tower if it wasn't for the sturdy Titans and the nasty Naga Queens. Those 2 creatures are the keys to defeating Tower in my opinion. You dispose of them first and fast, you've won. You don't dispose of them first and fast... good luck defeating Neela in late game then!

So, first of all, it's the NQs and Titans. Then, another advantage I see is Neela. Despite of her crappy skills (which in WoG, which is what I'm playing anyway) they are easily fixable with the various WoG specific objects, and Neela becomes the 1st hero choice on XL maps with underground. I haven't tested this, but I have a feeling Tower + Neela might be able to defeat even Galthran in month 10+ due to her Armor special. Even if she can't beat Necro, I still think Neela is the 2nd advantage Tower has.

Third advantage: the iron golems, especially on Neela. I rarely use those golems (they are too slow to carry on the adventure map), but they are so sturdy (and resistant to magic, too) that on Neela they are nearly unkillable. Not by tier 1-4 creatures anyway, you would have to use your top tier creatures against them. They make for good decoy in long-lasting battles

Fourth advantage, albeit not as big as the other 3: yeah, the magic specialties of this faction (the library building, the magi's ability to reduce spell costs in half, the magic resistance of iron golems, the wall of knowledge). Like I said, these are not too big of an advantage, but in fast games, on small / medium maps I think these little things could help Tower pull a miraculous victory against factions like Fortress, Necropolis, or Stronghold.


Disadvantages

Like many people are saying, the biggest disadvantages of Tower are - in my opinion, too - the creatures' speed and their buildings' cost. Tower is too expensive, and a bit too slow overall (they could have used 2 more speed), which makes them hard to pull victories with on small / medium maps against certain Factions. On L / XL maps, however, and with a good (moderately rich) native area... Tower will pull out the big guns (Titans and NQs) and they'll be hard to beat... probably;

Another disadvantage I think is their heroes' starting skills. Many of Tower's good heroes (Neela, Fafner) start with crap skills like scholar, or magic resistance. Sure, in WoG this is not an issue as I've explained above, but I'm assuming this discussion is about the original version of Heroes 3, so...



Best creature(s) and why

Obviously, the best Tower creatures are the Titans and Naga Queens for reasons...

Titans: best shooter in the game, mind spell immunity (can't be berserkered, which is neat), and LOTS of freaking HPs for a shooter. They also hate Black Dragons, and you know the saying: the enemy of my enemy is my friend

Naga Queens: no retaliation, lots of HPs and damage, and good att / def ratings.

Apart from the 2 obvious picks for the best Tower creature I'd also like to mention the... iron golems. I know that not many people talk about / like them because they're too slow (which I agree with), but they are pretty useful in various circumstances (defending the town, against Vampire Lords, or taking retaliations of strong enemy creatures). Their HPs and magic resistance makes them suitable for all these actions, and I like them a bit more than Master Genies for example, even though I'm not carrying the golem on the adventure map.


Worst creature(s) and why

Worst Tower creature?? Well, I've never thought about it, but I'd have to leave this "honor" for the Gargoyles. They're not really weak, per se, but since I must specify which creature I deem the weakest... well, I can't pick the master gremlins as they're the only level 1 shooter and they're good enough to butcher all other level 1 creatures, and I can't pick Master Genies, either because - even though they're squishy - they can cast spells to make the nasty Titans even nastier, so... I'm picking the Gargoyle as being the weakes, but realistically I don't think Tower has any weak creatures. Slow? Yes. But not weak

Special buildings

Artifact merchant wins the title for Tower's best special building. Too bad you never have enough money to buy all of the good items you get at the AM, but theoretically it is better than all other special buildings of Tower.

On the 2nd spot I'll put Library of Enlightment. The other special buildings are good, too. Each one of them is useful, but these 2 win the title as "the best special buildings" easily


Building order

Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean in which order we build the town, well, I think the order is pretty straightforward (and the same in all circumstances): get Master Gremlins, Naga Queens and Magis ASAP so you gather resources for the Titans. The magic guild is only to be built as needed to go past a nasty monster blocking your way to the delicious resources that Tower needs... plenty of. But otherwise, Tower doesn't need high level spells (4 and 5) to farm. Just pick Neela, rush the Gremlins, Nagas, and Magis, and job done!


Hero classes

I'm not familiar with the pros and cons of hero classes in general, so I'm not gonna comment on this aspect. All I know is that Neela and Fafner are the best heroes to pick in the games I play (that last at least 12 months), and I don't have to worry about any other hero.


Good / Bad on what kind of maps

As I've said earlier (and as many other people agree on), Tower is mostly good for L / XL maps (preferably with underground, too) because they need time (resources, actually) to build the Titans. The Titans are the ones carrying the entire Tower army to victory, and without them... well, you get the idea

So yeah, L / XL maps are the maps that Tower thrives on, because the other sizes are not rich, or don't give this faction enough town to build their most important creature

OWN subjective rank in a townranking, from 1st (best) to 9th (worst)

F*ck! This is a hard one. I'll try to be as honest as I can, though, but I'm not gonna include Cove as I've never played HotA. So, here it goes...

1) Necropolis (not because of the town creatures per se, but because of the f4ggot necromancy skill);

2) Castle (AAs are too powerful, while all other Castle creatures are the best for their tier, or among the best anyway);

3) Rampart (one of my favorite towns, but the reason I put it on the 3d spot is not because it's my one of my favorites, but simply because it's one of the towns I rarely lose with. Mephala, Kyrre, and Ryland are too much of a cheat heroes to ignore this town, where you also add the fact that the Rampart creatures are pretty good on their own, too);

4)Tower (I would say that Tower, Rampart, and Dungeon are tied for the 3d spot, but since I can only choose one town for each spot... well, I picked them in the order of favorites);

5) Dungeon (2 good shooters, good spells, good specialists, good amount of HPs and damage nicely distributed among the creatures, so, good town overall. Like I said, I'd put it at #3 along with Tower and Rampart, but since it's the one I like the least of the 3...);

6) Fortress (another one of my favorite towns, and one that I rarely lose with. Had I not be forced to rank these towns in a particular order I would have put Fortress along with Tower and Rampart and Dungeon, only slightly behind Castle and Necro, but... I have to rank them );

7) Inferno (I think Inferno is only slightly better than Stronghold due to the superior speed and the annoying fire shield of the sultans, so I'm putting them at #7 even if I can not play Inferno well);

8) Stronghold (I love the behemoths, I really do. But one strong creature is not enough to win the game. Goblins and wolf riders die too fast, ogre never get enough action because they lose 2 turns to they reach the opponent + 1 turn to bloodlust the monkeys, while cyclopes... well, you never get to use them in quick games because they're too expensive, and in longer games almost all other towns reach them in 1 turn, except for Tower, but then Tower shoots them down with the Titans. I really wished to put Stronghold higher in the list cause I like the monkeys, but they don't give me enough reasons to do it, so here they are sitting nicely at #8 in my rankings);

9) Conflux (and lastly, my 3rd favorite town. I genuinely feel that this is the weakest town, despite of what other people say. The Phoenixes and Magic Elements simply die too fast, when they're the ones who should carry Conflux to victory, so...)

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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 05, 2018 04:42 AM

Conflux has one of the best high level units. No idea why do you consider it the weakest town. 80 HP is very reasonable for a unit that has hydras abilities also they are the cheapest 6.th level units. Just look Naga Queen's cost. 2 times more expensive but not 2 times more durable than Magic Elementals.

Phoenis is squishy but wouldn't you prefer having 2 phoenix instead of 1 Black Dragon?
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 05, 2018 09:43 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 09:44, 05 Sep 2018.

monere said:
The biggest advantages are without a doubt the tier 6 and 7 creatures. Sure, people will always say that their specials (mana reduction of the magi, the library building, etc.) are pluses, too, but... all these pluses wouldn't be able to bring victories for Tower if it wasn't for the sturdy Titans and the nasty Naga Queens. Those 2 creatures are the keys to defeating Tower in my opinion. You dispose of them first and fast, you've won. You don't dispose of them first and fast... good luck defeating Neela in late game then!

I would argue that it is the endurance and nature of the Tower troops in general that is their biggest advantage. Since the Tower has the best ranged firepower out of all towns the enemy will always be forced to move in quickly to nullify your ranged units. However, if the Tower hero has tactics (and the enemy does not, or of less skill) the battle quickly becomes a nightmare for the enemy. The Tower also works very well with powerful artifacts. Best of all would be Red Orb (the irony that the most magic oriented town of all is best when no magic is present), as the enemy won't be able to cross over in time with a lot of units.
monere said:
So, first of all, it's the NQs and Titans. Then, another advantage I see is Neela. Despite of her crappy skills (which in WoG, which is what I'm playing anyway) they are easily fixable with the various WoG specific objects, and Neela becomes the 1st hero choice on XL maps with underground. I haven't tested this, but I have a feeling Tower + Neela might be able to defeat even Galthran in month 10+ due to her Armor special. Even if she can't beat Necro, I still think Neela is the 2nd advantage Tower has.
Neela is not bad but she is not exactly awesome either. I would say that the second advantage of the Tower is the Master Gremlins. If preserved well during the map cleaning and with additional Gremlin dwellings present, the stack can grow so large it will hit even harder than the Titans.
Due to this fact an enemy needs to split the forces up to tie up Tower's 3 archers.
monere said:
Third advantage: the iron golems, especially on Neela. I rarely use those golems (they are too slow to carry on the adventure map), but they are so sturdy (and resistant to magic, too) that on Neela they are nearly unkillable. Not by tier 1-4 creatures anyway, you would have to use your top tier creatures against them. They make for good decoy in long-lasting battles
Sometimes they are handy in the end battle. Yet they are usually used to soak up damage or blows when clearing the map of tougher creature stacks. That said, they are sturdy creatures.
monere said:
Fourth advantage, albeit not as big as the other 3: yeah, the magic specialties of this faction (the library building, the magi's ability to reduce spell costs in half, the magic resistance of iron golems, the wall of knowledge). Like I said, these are not too big of an advantage, but in fast games, on small / medium maps I think these little things could help Tower pull a miraculous victory against factions like Fortress, Necropolis, or Stronghold.
In quick games it can be handy yes. But in long games it is not much to cheer for as you seldomly get to build it in time and since the Tower wants to scour the map for the Red Orb it becomes a waste should it be found.
It should be noted though that the Tower's 6th and 7th creature dwellings on the map are rather easy to fight, especially with the help of a little magic.
monere said:
Like many people are saying, the biggest disadvantages of Tower are - in my opinion, too - the creatures' speed and their buildings' cost. Tower is too expensive, and a bit too slow overall (they could have used 2 more speed), which makes them hard to pull victories with on small / medium maps against certain Factions. On L / XL maps, however, and with a good (moderately rich) native area... Tower will pull out the big guns (Titans and NQs) and they'll be hard to beat... probably;
Tower is expensive to build up and it is very hard on resource scarce maps. However people tend to forget that while some unit dwellings like that of the Magi, Genie and Naga are expensive in resources, the Cloud Temple is the cheapest for the first tier. Upgrading however is a different story.
monere said:
Another disadvantage I think is their heroes' starting skills. Many of Tower's good heroes (Neela, Fafner) start with crap skills like scholar, or magic resistance. Sure, in WoG this is not an issue as I've explained above, but I'm assuming this discussion is about the original version of Heroes 3, so...
Yup. No argument here.
monere said:
Obviously, the best Tower creatures are the Titans and Naga Queens for reasons...
I would add in Master Gremlins aswell.
monere said:
Apart from the 2 obvious picks for the best Tower creature I'd also like to mention the... iron golems. I know that not many people talk about / like them because they're too slow (which I agree with), but they are pretty useful in various circumstances (defending the town, against Vampire Lords, or taking retaliations of strong enemy creatures). Their HPs and magic resistance makes them suitable for all these actions, and I like them a bit more than Master Genies for example, even though I'm not carrying the golem on the adventure map.
I think the reason Golems are shunned by both new and experienced players is that they are somewhat slow before upgraded and also lacking in offensive power. They are brilliant soakers though.
monere said:
Worst Tower creature?? Well, I've never thought about it, but I'd have to leave this "honor" for the Gargoyles. They're not really weak, per se, but since I must specify which creature I deem the weakest... well, I can't pick the master gremlins as they're the only level 1 shooter and they're good enough to butcher all other level 1 creatures, and I can't pick Master Genies, either because - even though they're squishy - they can cast spells to make the nasty Titans even nastier, so... I'm picking the Gargoyle as being the weakes, but realistically I don't think Tower has any weak creatures. Slow? Yes. But not weak
Gargoyle is the weakest creature of the Tower but the are quick, relatively durable and plentiful. Hence they are great vs the map.
Genies are also quite weak but on the bright side they have a respectable offensive power which can be useful in the end fight if one can stack them.
monere said:
Artifact merchant wins the title for Tower's best special building. Too bad you never have enough money to buy all of the good items you get at the AM, but theoretically it is better than all other special buildings of Tower.

On the 2nd spot I'll put Library of Enlightment. The other special buildings are good, too. Each one of them is useful, but these 2 win the title as "the best special buildings" easily
Nothing to add here.
monere said:
Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean in which order we build the town, well, I think the order is pretty straightforward (and the same in all circumstances): get Master Gremlins, Naga Queens and Magis ASAP so you gather resources for the Titans. The magic guild is only to be built as needed to go past a nasty monster blocking your way to the delicious resources that Tower needs... plenty of. But otherwise, Tower doesn't need high level spells (4 and 5) to farm. Just pick Neela, rush the Gremlins, Nagas, and Magis, and job done!
Do no upgrade the Gremlin dwelling during W1. You trade in best case a Citadel for it and in the worst case a Cloud Temple. While the Master Gremlins are great vs the map you get more out of your unpgraded friends since it is more likely you will have the Offense skill and you will be relying a lot on melee once your Nagas and Giants come into play.
monere said:
I'm not familiar with the pros and cons of hero classes in general, so I'm not gonna comment on this aspect. All I know is that Neela and Fafner are the best heroes to pick in the games I play (that last at least 12 months), and I don't have to worry about any other hero.
Maybe in eternal solo games they are. But I would argue you are better of picking Aine/Neela for multiplayer.

Nevertheless, it is a sturdy Tower, I mean town.


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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 05, 2018 04:43 PM

I have problem at defeating decent Tower players, I'd be very grateful if skilled players help me.

Since as I said this town should be banned due to several reasons. Their 7.th dwelling is way too cheap even cheaper than Forsaken palace and Portal of Glory and unlike dragons upgrading them doesn't require mage guild level 2 and 3.

60 Max damage and 300 HP for a shooter that also has no melee penalty? Sorry but it is cheating. But probably there may be ways that defeating Tower since I haven't seen any skilled player that bans Tower.
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted September 05, 2018 04:53 PM

Speaking about Tower:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43966&PID=1457948#focus
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 08, 2018 04:52 PM

Otuken said:
I have problem at defeating decent Tower players, I'd be very grateful if skilled players help me.
Since I am short on time I shall be brief and to the point.
1. Pray they lose a lot of Gremlins/Nagas/Giants on the map or that they have issues building the town.
2. Pray they do not get their hands on the Red Orb (then it is game over pretty much in a fairly equal end battle).
3. You need to cross the field before the Tower can shield in the troops. This means spells like Haste/Prayer is next to mandatory.
4. Make sure you got Tactics at Expert. Cause if you let the Tower have a "free round" to organize the troops you are in severe trouble no matter what town you rock.
Otuken said:
Since as I said this town should be banned due to several reasons. Their 7.th dwelling is way too cheap even cheaper than Forsaken palace and Portal of Glory and unlike dragons upgrading them doesn't require mage guild level 2 and 3.
The truth is most players would argue it needs a buff. The Tower is indeed a very powerful town when fully upgraded, but it very difficult (even for experienced players) to accomplish this while at the same time preserving the troops. The town is also quite sluggish in nature which means quick creatures on the map can really harm you.
Otuken said:
60 Max damage and 300 HP for a shooter that also has no melee penalty? Sorry but it is cheating. But probably there may be ways that defeating Tower since I haven't seen any skilled player that bans Tower.
Titans are good but they don't come cheap. They are also vulnerable to implosion and lack speed.

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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 08, 2018 08:55 PM
Edited by Otuken at 20:56, 08 Sep 2018.

Ebonheart said:
Otuken said:
I have problem at defeating decent Tower players, I'd be very grateful if skilled players help me.
Since I am short on time I shall be brief and to the point.
1. Pray they lose a lot of Gremlins/Nagas/Giants on the map or that they have issues building the town.
2. Pray they do not get their hands on the Red Orb (then it is game over pretty much in a fairly equal end battle).
3. You need to cross the field before the Tower can shield in the troops. This means spells like Haste/Prayer is next to mandatory.
4. Make sure you got Tactics at Expert. Cause if you let the Tower have a "free round" to organize the troops you are in severe trouble no matter what town you rock.
Otuken said:
Since as I said this town should be banned due to several reasons. Their 7.th dwelling is way too cheap even cheaper than Forsaken palace and Portal of Glory and unlike dragons upgrading them doesn't require mage guild level 2 and 3.
The truth is most players would argue it needs a buff. The Tower is indeed a very powerful town when fully upgraded, but it very difficult (even for experienced players) to accomplish this while at the same time preserving the troops. The town is also quite sluggish in nature which means quick creatures on the map can really harm you.
Otuken said:
60 Max damage and 300 HP for a shooter that also has no melee penalty? Sorry but it is cheating. But probably there may be ways that defeating Tower since I haven't seen any skilled player that bans Tower.
Titans are good but they don't come cheap. They are also vulnerable to implosion and lack speed.


The problem is that as you said your success againt tower is rely on your opponent's mistakes. If Tower player can get red orb and/or tactic skill game is totally game over. Having three shooters provides huge advantage. Master gremlins are also great cost effective units, they came always with big numbers. This town start strong and remain strong.

Getting Giants/Titans is easier than getting dragons, archangels or archdevils and they are clearly better than them in full scale battles.

This town even get buffed in HotA. Their dwellings require 7000 less gold and high level dwellings no longer require Mage Tower. Also they start with more gargoyles and golems.

I believe that there are only two towns in SoD that need buff which are Dungeon and Inferno. Tower was supposed to be get nerfed.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 08, 2018 09:28 PM

Otuken said:
Conflux has one of the best high level units. No idea why do you consider it the weakest town. 80 HP is very reasonable for a unit that has hydras abilities also they are the cheapest 6.th level units. Just look Naga Queen's cost. 2 times more expensive but not 2 times more durable than Magic Elementals.

Phoenis is squishy but wouldn't you prefer having 2 phoenix instead of 1 Black Dragon?


Both Phoenixes and MEs are squishy. And if those 2 die fast... well, no other Conflux creature is able to carry this faction to victory.... and they DO die fast.

But, take into account that the feedback I give on this forum is EXCLUSIVELY based on my personal games against my friend in hotseat mode where we would play randomly generated XL + underground maps, and we wouldn't be allowed to touch each other until month 12. We would first explore and clear the map at our own pace, develop the towns we were lucky to find each, we would also build our armies and only then we would fight one epic battle at the end of the 12 months.

And in this type of games my friend (who would usually play Castle or Necropolis - therefore the 2 strongest and faggiest towns in the game - would beat the hell out of my Conflux. He would occasionally play Stronghold or Dungeon when he would get bored of beating me with the gayass Castle and Necro towns, but when he'd play those towns I would usually beat him, but almost never with Conflux, because... well, because Conflux is too freaking weak)

Also, yeah, I would prefer having 2 Phoenixes over 1 Blackie, but I would still lose ,... I always prefer Phoenixes over Black Dragons for 2 reasons: 1) I don't like Dungeon, and 2) I LOVE Conflux. Even though the harshest defeats have come when I've played Conflux I still love that town (actually, the Magic Elementals mostly). Even my HC usermane is "monere" so go figure!

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 08, 2018 09:52 PM

@Ebonheart...

First of all, sorry for the late reply dude. I usually do reply quite fast cause I'm having this forum opened in the browser 24/7 and check the updates on the new posts every 20-30 minutes or so. But somehow, I have missed the updates on this particular thread, so I do apologize for replying so late.

Now, regarding your comments...

1) yeah, you do have a point about orb of inhibition. I've never thought about that, but it makes sense, indeed, that OoI is good for Tower, and I'd say is good because of how sturdy their creatures are (well, the Titans, NQs and IGs anyway, which are enough to pull victories in mid to late games if played correctly)

2) regarding the mater gremlins... you may be right again, but the way me and my friend used to play this game (one final battle at the end of month 12 after we had cleared the entire map and built our armies in the towns we would find) master gremlins didn't even make it into our final army, so I wouldn't know how useful they are ... It does make sense, however, that early in the game they are a force to be reckoned with since they grow in such numbers and spells like bless / precision are really powerful on level 1 creatures. So, yeah, in those  circumstances they can really be powerful, but... I couldn't have known that since I'm not a good Tower player. I like that town a lot, but I'm not good with it

3) I agree that Tower is expensive to build, however... I don't find Naga's building too expensive to build, nor do I find it expensive to upgrade, which is somehow logical, because with how expensive the Titans are to build and recruit it only makes sense that you make the tier 6 creature building easily available to build and upgrade. For me, the pain in the you-know-what are the magis (5 of each resource is preposterous for a tier 4 creature that's not even spectacular like the Mighty Gorgon, for example), and the... Genie's building, since - if I'm not wrong - that's a prerequisite to building the Nagas's building.

4) regarding the iron golems... I wonder if the frenzy spell works well on them...

5) regarding the gargoyles... how are they durable?? Plentiful, yes, they are indeed, but durable? I don't know...

6) Aine?? The gold specialist? Why would I pick a gold specialist? I mean, Ok, it's not bad since Tower does need resources early on, but for a main hero Aine's specialty is crap in late game. Do people actually play her as main??

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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 08, 2018 10:46 PM

Nobody picks Aine as main hero. They start with Aine for more gold then switch to a barbarian or overlord as main hero.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 08, 2018 11:44 PM

Otuken said:
Nobody picks Aine as main hero. They start with Aine for more gold then switch to a barbarian or overlord as main hero.


Well, the guy said Aine/Neela is to pick in multiplayer, and if we all agree that Neela is a good hero to play as main, then Aine would also be good because she's being mentioned alongside Neela, and this is the part that confuses me. If Aine is not good as a main (which we agree) why is she being mentioned alongside Neela? It makes no sense to me

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Otuken
Otuken


Adventuring Hero
posted September 09, 2018 12:05 AM

monere said:
Otuken said:
Nobody picks Aine as main hero. They start with Aine for more gold then switch to a barbarian or overlord as main hero.


Well, the guy said Aine/Neela is to pick in multiplayer, and if we all agree that Neela is a good hero to play as main, then Aine would also be good because she's being mentioned alongside Neela, and this is the part that confuses me. If Aine is not good as a main (which we agree) why is she being mentioned alongside Neela? It makes no sense to me


Aine is not as good as Neela as a main hero, they pick Aine as starting hero not AS main hero then they try to find better hero from tavern.

Normally Neela is better than Aine but I think Aine is better as starting hero than Neela because finding a hero that better than Neela is not hard task.


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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 09, 2018 12:09 AM

Ok

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 09, 2018 01:05 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 13:06, 09 Sep 2018.

Otuken said:
The problem is that as you said your success againt tower is rely on your opponent's mistakes. If Tower player can get red orb and/or tactic skill game is totally game over. Having three shooters provides huge advantage. Master gremlins are also great cost effective units, they came always with big numbers. This town start strong and remain strong.
The weakness of the Tower lies with the speed of its units, the town build up cost/order and map size.
Yet since most multiplayer games are fought on Jebus L/XL with a plethora of resources the Tower can effectively remove 2/3 of its main weak points.

The map fighting is a weakpoint if the map is surrounded by very quick creatures or ranged units. Then again, it is to almost every town that lacks a durable yet quick unit and/or magic.

The reason for why OoI (Red Orb) and Tactics are almost a free win for the Tower is as you already pointed out - its archers. If you face off vs a smart Tower player he/she will split the Titans, Magi/Arch Magi and Master Gremlins up from the top corner, to the middle to the lower corner. That way it is unlikely that the enemy can tie all 3 of them up in time and by doing so it might also mean that one can't get to hit the stack of Naga Queens.
Hence, mass Haste/Prayer is the obvious solution to this, and if the Red Orb is present that tactic is nullified. That leaves the option to cross via a greater Tactics skill or by getting a positive morale swing, which are both quite unlikely. A good Tower player would probably value Tactics on par with Offense due to the nature of the town.
Otuken said:
Getting Giants/Titans is easier than getting dragons, archangels or archdevils and they are clearly better than them in full scale battles.
Giants are indeed easy to get but the Titans are not. It comes down to the gem and gold luck on the map, yet most importantly the presence of a Trading Post. At least if one aims to have them M1W2D1-D2 like me.
Otuken said:
This town even get buffed in HotA. Their dwellings require 7000 less gold and high level dwellings no longer require Mage Tower. Also they start with more gargoyles and golems.
I do not play HotA so I can't speak for their balance there. Yet I do believe the Tower needed a buff when it came to starting troops.

@Monere
It was indeed confusing when I said Aine was a good hero. She is not a good hero but amongst the available heroes in the Tower setup she is one of the best. Hence it is a choice betweena solid main hero if nothing better shows up in the Tavern or taking the chance on the Tavern lottery and get a solid 350+ gold a day.
I believe that there are only two towns in SoD that need buff which are Dungeon and Inferno. Tower was supposed to be get nerfed.
monere said:
First of all, sorry for the late reply dude.

I expect replies to come every 24h - 3 months so no worries.
monere said:
1) yeah, you have a point about orb of inhibition. I've never thought about that, but it makes sense, indeed, that OoI is good for Tower, and I'd say is good because of how sturdy their creatures are (well, the Titans, NQs and IGs anyway, which are enough to pull victories in mid to late games if played correctly)

The most magic oriented town is best when no magic is present. Hah!
monere said:
2) regarding the mater gremlins... you may be right again, but the way me and my friend used to play this game (one final battle at the end of month 12 after we had cleared the entire map and built our armies in the towns we would find) master gremlins didn't even make it into our final army, so I wouldn't know how useful they are ... It does make sense, however, that early in the game they are a force to be reckoned with since they grow in such numbers and spells like bless / precision are really powerful on level 1 creatures. So, yeah, in those  circumstances they can really be powerful, but... I couldn't have known that since I'm not a good Tower player. I like that town a lot, but I'm not good with it

Hehe well my end battles used to happen around M1W2D5-M1W3D3, so it is difficult to compare to that.
monere said:
3) I agree that Tower is expensive to build, however... I don't find Naga's building too expensive to build, nor do I find it expensive to upgrade, which is somehow logical, because with how expensive the Titans are to build and recruit it only makes sense that you make the tier 6 creature building easily available to build and upgrade. For me, the pain in the you-know-what are the magis (5 of each resource is preposterous for a tier 4 creature that's not even spectacular like the Mighty Gorgon, for example), and the... Genie's building, since - if I'm not wrong - that's a prerequisite to building the Nagas's building.
The Naga dwelling is quite expensive to build measured in resource numbers but they are not concentrated like that of the gems needed for Upg Cloud Temple or a Cyclops Cave.
Yet you must also factor in that the Nagas themselves cost quite a bit.
monere said:
4) regarding the iron golems... I wonder if the frenzy spell works well on them...
It does, and quite well yet I have hardly ever used that spell with that Town in a multiplayer match or even single playing.
monere said:
5) regarding the gargoyles... how are they durable?? Plentiful, yes, they are indeed, but durable? I don't know...
16 health is quite a bit for a quick flying unit. A couple of them in a stack can survive longer than one might expect.
monere said:
6) Aine?? The gold specialist? Why would I pick a gold specialist? I mean, Ok, it's not bad since Tower does need resources early on, but for a main hero Aine's specialty is crap in late game. Do people actually play her as main??
You will never ever main her. Even Neela is quite bad (but better than no offensive alternative). You only pick Aine if you believe you will have good luck in the Tavern.

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