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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -TOWER-
Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -TOWER- This thread is 17 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 11, 2018 12:39 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 13:21, 11 Sep 2018.

JollyJoker said:
Obviously, when you play Tower with random heroes on impossible, and you get Piquedram and find Serena in the Tavern you are royally screwed, no matter what


Impossible mode deserve its name. Many games suffer from unbalance on highest difficulty, even Civilization on Deity works with only a few nations, AOW 2 too from what I remember and so on. That's why pvp play intermediate difficulty so they could a) have the funds for digging a decent hero then b) be able to pass the special low level dwellings, like in dungeon case.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 11, 2018 02:15 PM

Salamandre said:
Popcorn. I receive such warnings every week and even if I'm more amazing than you I just comply, I like order.

Also they have to justify their moderator fancy income.


I like order, too. But real order, not tyranny, and when someone calls me idiot out of the blue just because I told him to stop whining and feeling butthurt, and then a MODERATOR warns ME, instead of the one who started the insults... sorry, but that's not order. That's masked tyranny.

Anyway, whatever they decide I'm cool with it. I wasn't intending to spend my entire life on this forum anyway, cause I gotta get out of this damn house and make some money, or else.... well, else I won't be able to create the game I'm having in mind

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 11, 2018 02:50 PM

Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
Obviously, when you play Tower with random heroes on impossible, and you get Piquedram and find Serena in the Tavern you are royally screwed, no matter what


Impossible mode deserve its name. Many games suffer from unbalance on highest difficulty, even Civilization on Deity works with only a few nations, AOW 2 too from what I remember and so on. That's why pvp play intermediate difficulty so they could a) have the funds for digging a decent hero then b) be able to pass the special low level dwellings, like in dungeon case.
Yeah, but you didn't answer the actual question raised:

Quote:
and the question you can ask is, is it right to allow such a big difference in quality, when you could also get Cyra plus any Alchemist except Piquedram and Josephine.

Because hero "quality" has nothing to do with difficulty level per se.

In my opinion you should ALWAYS play with random hero (imagine a game with both players picking the same town - who picks first), but obviously, when there are so big differences in what you can actually get, random hero cannot be something you do in a competitive session, so my actual conclusion is that something is not right here.

So it's no wonder that WoG changed the crappy secondaries and that the amount of useless L2 creature specs is increased. Still, though...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 11, 2018 03:34 PM

monere said:
I like order, too. But real order, not tyranny, and when someone calls me idiot out of the blue just because I told him to stop whining and feeling butthurt, and then a MODERATOR warns ME, instead of the one who started the insults... sorry, but that's not order. That's masked tyranny.


I issued a general warning to everyone posting here, not just you. Your reply just happened to be the latest one in the (veiled) insults pinging back and forth between a few members and I used it as an example to point out why such postings aren't allowed here. Don't read what isn't there.

monere said:
@Maurice.... I don't care too much about what you have to say, or do...


You should, because I am acting as the local law enforcement, so to speak and as such try to maintain balance here and will call out anyone who is crossing or about to cross a line that's put down in the CoC. In this case it was you, Otuken and JollyJoker.
____________
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 11, 2018 03:42 PM

As I said many times, there is no problem in playing with whatever hero, granted you know the relation skills -> class, and win. The random choice was killed by the fan modification of templates, they are now closed and artificially allow very high level main heroes, so you get those offense, armorer and logistic skills kicking in and having priority, thus everything goes towards might hero pick. If you play Heroes 3 on the original template - no guards, no blocks, interaction with other player early, the main hero isn't important but how you grasp every square of the map before your opponent by using a flexible chain. For the 5 years I played in ToH, early vanilla, I never saw a main hero going beyond 10th level - maps were decent, not filled with utopias, relics and tomes crap, or at 10th level magic heroes are just as good or even better than might ones.

But that kind or gameplay is stressing as is based on constant skirmish so you ahve to pay attention to every move and every hero, then people wanted safe build-style game, with one big battle at the end. And this is how the game became unbalanced.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 11, 2018 06:20 PM

Ok, I understand.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 11, 2018 06:32 PM

there is such a thing as a 'restart phase' in multiplayer. the usual is 113, meaning you get 3 first day restarts OR 1 second day and 1 first day OR 1 third day restart. in this case you can regenerate the map if you assume you were affected by any of the so called imbalances

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted September 11, 2018 06:34 PM

Salamandre said:
As I said many times, there is no problem in playing with whatever hero, granted you know the relation skills -> class, and win. The random choice was killed by the fan modification of templates, they are now closed and artificially allow very high level main heroes, so you get those offense, armorer and logistic skills kicking in and having priority, thus everything goes towards might hero pick. If you play Heroes 3 on the original template - no guards, no blocks, interaction with other player early, the main hero isn't important but how you grasp every square of the map before your opponent by using a flexible chain. For the 5 years I played in ToH, early vanilla, I never saw a main hero going beyond 10th level - maps were decent, not filled with utopias, relics and tomes crap, or at 10th level magic heroes are just as good or even better than might ones.

But that kind or gameplay is stressing as is based on constant skirmish so you ahve to pay attention to every move and every hero, then people wanted safe build-style game, with one big battle at the end. And this is how the game became unbalanced.


I have noticed that tournament community prefer to play on quite the same conditions:
1) 1 human player vs 1 human player, no more than 2 human, no computer players. Only red human vs blue human.
2) "fat" random map sizes of each template, not "lean". For example, 2sm4d(3) suitable both for M size and L size. Players always prefer L size.
3) 160% difficulty (or 200% but with not strong monsters).

So, they think that it is Heroes 3, but it is only little part of Heroes 3...
HotA oriented on current tournament fashion and often make rebalance for better playing on such specific conditions.
If someone wants to change game one should fit templates (for random) or maps to game mechanics but HotA doing opposite...

For example, in original game Necropolis actually quite balanced on "lean" sizes, 200%, strong monsters, + comp. players. Because of in such conditions Necropolis will not get very huge skeleton army from his respawn zone, it may have difficulties with early upgrade of Vampires and sometimes it may have difficulties with computer players.

BTW, current most popular playing conditions lead to quite monotonous game, though it require gaming skill, of course. What we can see always: 1) 8 heroes on first week 2) breakthrough to other zones on first week 3) almost no development of starting castle 4) finding Dragon Fly Hives or Griffin Conservatory.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 11, 2018 06:44 PM

It's not Hota's fault, this style of gameplay existed and was predominant for the last 15 years. A majority of people prefer safe developing, build their main as they wish without worrying that opponent may steal resources, kill scouts and play the attrition card. Hota only optimize what players already like.

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted September 11, 2018 06:53 PM

Salamandre said:
As I said many times, there is no problem in playing with whatever hero, granted you know the relation skills -> class, and win. The random choice was killed by the fan modification of templates, they are now closed and artificially allow very high level main heroes, so you get those offense, armorer and logistic skills kicking in and having priority, thus everything goes towards might hero pick. If you play Heroes 3 on the original template - no guards, no blocks, interaction with other player early, the main hero isn't important but how you grasp every square of the map before your opponent by using a flexible chain. For the 5 years I played in ToH, early vanilla, I never saw a main hero going beyond 10th level - maps were decent, not filled with utopias, relics and tomes crap, or at 10th level magic heroes are just as good or even better than might ones.

But that kind or gameplay is stressing as is based on constant skirmish so you ahve to pay attention to every move and every hero, then people wanted safe build-style game, with one big battle at the end. And this is how the game became unbalanced.


This is probably very much true!

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted September 11, 2018 07:00 PM

Salamandre said:
It's not Hota's fault, this style of gameplay existed and was predominant for the last 15 years. A majority of people prefer safe developing, build their main as they wish without worrying that opponent may steal resources, kill scouts and play the attrition card. Hota only optimize what players already like.


May be so, but 1) HotA people is part of tournament community, so they play in such monotonic heroes 2) they seriously argue about shortcomings of original game bearing in mind only some specific aforementioned conditions 3) aggressive promotion of HotA + always on forums there are peoples which constantly advice to other people update soft to HotA ))

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 11, 2018 07:36 PM

I remember now why I stopped caring. Thanks, guys.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 12, 2018 01:30 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 13:43, 12 Sep 2018.

Ben80 said:
I have noticed that tournament community prefer to play on quite the same conditions:
1) 1 human player vs 1 human player, no more than 2 human, no computer players. Only red human vs blue human.
2) "fat" random map sizes of each template, not "lean". For example, 2sm4d(3) suitable both for M size and L size. Players always prefer L size.
3) 160% difficulty (or 200% but with not strong monsters).

So, they think that it is Heroes 3, but it is only little part of Heroes 3...
HotA oriented on current tournament fashion and often make rebalance for better playing on such specific conditions.
If someone wants to change game one should fit templates (for random) or maps to game mechanics but HotA doing opposite...

For example, in original game Necropolis actually quite balanced on "lean" sizes, 200%, strong monsters, + comp. players. Because of in such conditions Necropolis will not get very huge skeleton army from his respawn zone, it may have difficulties with early upgrade of Vampires and sometimes it may have difficulties with computer players.

BTW, current most popular playing conditions lead to quite monotonous game, though it require gaming skill, of course. What we can see always: 1) 8 heroes on first week 2) breakthrough to other zones on first week 3) almost no development of starting castle 4) finding Dragon Fly Hives or Griffin Conservatory.



it's just the way it is. when you reach a certain level of expertise in gameplay, you understand that in order to succeed in multiplayer you have to play efficiently ( having 8 heroes, sometimes not building your main town ) - those things that you mention

if you think that this type of play is not heroes, then competitive multiplayer just might not be for you, and that is fine - you are not alone

otherwise you can give me any type of map with any conditions, HotA or not - it does not matter, i will still be on top, because:

1) i can number crunch well, meaning i know what monsters i can defeat from the start of the game, without having to build up army week after week and waste time
2) i can utilize all 8 heroes on map to quickly scavenge and consume the area
3) i know what works and what doesn't on the battlefield, since i constantly play not against AI but players of similar skill as mine

and so matter of fact is that if 2sm4d3 was played on M size game would end on 1st week a lot of the times. the one with the best start would usually rush opp succesfully

while 200% templates like M Balance-200%, M Skirmish-200% are/was quite popular some time ago, albeit not on HotA. but most of the times templates chosen on HotA are by players who are quite new to the whole multiplayer concept and they simply choose the ones they are most familiar/comfortable playing, like Jebus, which is easy to play, but difficult to master

and no, Necro is certainly not any more balanced with Galthran allowed, no matter if it is "extra lean" or "extra fat"

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 12, 2018 01:46 PM

Not so easy to rush someone first week, if he sends several magic heroes with 1x5 single stacks of whatever combined to 4-5 magic arrows every battle. Then he might build castle and siege is almost impossible with early army. Hit&run is hard to avoid if your main risks a rush without first sending scouts to secure.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 12, 2018 01:54 PM

it is true on certain templates, but 2sm4d3 is plentiful with hives/conservatories/external dwellings

you are also forgetting the fact that attacker can have a strong magic hero ready or 1x5 magic arrow heroes behind him to aid in scout neutralization or castle siege

surrender scenario is also likely. defeat most of army - surrender - then finish off 2nd week

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 12, 2018 01:57 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 13:59, 12 Sep 2018.

If you plan to rush first week, you need careful and precise hero chain so they can bring the every day new army to main. So you can't have powerful magic heroes backing your main. That's the risk of rush, you expose your main hero and usually he (or large part of his army) dies to hit&run.
____________
Era II mods and utilities

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 12, 2018 02:25 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 14:26, 12 Sep 2018.

you may think in theory it is like that, but in practice is a lot different, especially on this template. opp will not stay near his town in desperation just waiting for you to come. he will be doing stuff far away from town most likely and will not even see you coming, since you will be coming from an adjacent zone and not the main road. even if it so happens that he is fully prepared with his magic scouts, week 1 surrender is not that expensive

so we are talking about an M map here, with a likely scenario of 1st week rush, on L same template rushes happen mid 2nd week frequently, in comparison

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 12, 2018 02:34 PM

What you are talking about, is a metagame: find and cash out the (expected) troop-giving creature banks and rush opponent.

It's not Heroes of Might & Magic 3.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 12, 2018 03:35 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 15:37, 12 Sep 2018.

no. what i am talking about is small map sizes not worth wasting time on multiplayer. there are other fairly popular templates on XL sizes like Extreme, Clash of Dragons, Frozen Dragons, True Random and others with the experience of "building up" that you seek. they are more rigid templates with less versatility but more time for a full experience, if that is what you call Heroes of Might & Magic 3

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 12, 2018 04:08 PM

I suppose the RMG isn't good enough when you have to limit yourseld to a couple of templates.

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