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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered
Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · NEXT»
feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 01:23 PM bonus applied.
Edited by feluniozbunio at 14:49, 15 May 2007.

Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered

Heyah

Playing Dungeon non stop became little boring so i decided to change the clan lately. That gave me the opportunity to check out some new castles. With an inspiration from Doomforge i decided to take closer look at dwarfs. I haven't had too many games under my belt still but i don't think ill have much time to play soon so i wanted to write something while im still in the game. Moreover i got quite surprisingly good results too.

Let me start, as usual, from the hero. Ingvar. This is my favorite hero. He makes your defender ridicules above any imagination. You get almost 100 of them right from the start and from day 1 or 2 they have 14 hp. Later in the game they become even better and are significant force in final battle. Usually in the end each one has 2-3 damage, about 18-20 hp and stats of a lvl 5 creature (not counting hero's stats bonus).

Skills needed.

Here starts the headache. You got so many possibilities that its difficult to choose the right one. So far i've came to 2 builds.

Since i start with Ingvar i got


exp racial  - refresh runes

exp defense - vitality

exp attack  - battle frenzy (this is a must!)

exp enlightenment - intelligence

exp logistics - if you can get it, do it ,if not, take luck

exp light magic - perks for spells you have


This build is good in big maps and long games. With such hero and proper play you have so comfortable end game and you don't need to hurry anywhere. Only think that can really make you hurry is heaven with paladin training

Note: watch out for Master of Abjuration. When you get this perk you will have to take Eternal Light too, which is not very useful in most cases.

I switched some skills and perks in order to decrease lvl requirements and i kept most important only.

Here is another one:


exp racial  - refresh runes

exp defense - vitality

exp attack  - battle frenzy (this is a must!)

exp enlightenment - arcane intuition, tap runes, mentoring

exp logistics - (luck and perks if you can't get logistics)

exp destructive magic - master of fire, ignite


This build is about armagedon ignite combo. Tap runes ensure that you will have mana for your spells and enlightenment is necessary since it allows tap runes and it increases mana and spellpower. It's a pitty that there is no luck in this build but there is simply no room for it. Perhaps defense could go but when you play with Ingvar as you main hero you get it from the start. Anyway, defense is a very good skill too.

Mentoring its a funny addon, it may give you diverse benefits depends on your luck with skills. More armagedon suicide bombers anyone?
I'm still not sure about this mentoring thing so use it at your own risk. Perhaps intelligence instead all those 3 perks is just better. And since this build is supposed to be for small maps you may not have enough experience for so many lvls.

Keep in mind that this build leaves you vulnerable for dark magic.

Just a comment about dwarven luck. Its not as good as it may look but if you feel you need resistance,its better than nothing, just don't overestimate it.

I think that light magic is better for dwarfs (mainly due to resurrection creeping) Without resurrection those magics are comparable but this single spell makes huge difference, especially  on maps where you kill hordes of lvl 6 or 7.What is more it gives you many counters.

magic immunity, cleansing - against dark magic

teleport - very good during siege, good frenzy counter and tactical spell

mass spells - very good boosts, counter for ranged armies

Destructive is quite useful too but not as much as light.


Now its time to the hard part.

Economics. This subject gives you even more headache then hero&skills. Fortress is soo resources consuming. You will find yourself not available of doing many buildings fast, but don't you worry. Choosing dwarfs you set up for a long game (or at least you don't mind if it takes long) You just build up your city as fast as you can and don't be nervous that you cant do many dwellings fast, you'll get them...

Try to maximalize number of your lvl 1-3 creatures. These guys are essential. Then focus on doing thanes berserk and dragons. Priests have so ridiculous requirements that you can forget about them right from the start, unless you play 1 town rich map maybe.



Creeping


Good faction needs good creeping. So far i have got three ways of creeping with dwarfs.

1) war machines .. like for every other faction they are good at creeping. Its just that you don't have skill slots for them so this option is out.

2) magic - this quite good method, with destructive magic hero its quite easy to creep, you just need to watch out at level of you mana.. you don't have too much of it.

Some time ago ive been using Erling a lot because of his sorcery. With it he can creep very efficiently.
I still consider him as a good hero vs magic factions because of his distract ability.

3) So what if you dont have neither magic nor machines? You got your tough guys! Believe me, your defenders can cut through everything with very little losses, just make sure you use their shield wall ability. Later on you can add some more troops in order to decrease casualties even more. I usually don't use runes while creeping since most useful ones cost wood and ore which you are lacking horribly.


After few more games ive got more experience in creeping with dwarfs and i must say its not bad. Basically the idea havent changed , i still use Defenders. When your hero is still low lvl you can use spearwielders and ammo cart for additional damage. Just surround your spearwielders with 3 stacks of 1 defender and place one more defender to guard ammo cart. You can have one more to suicide to steal counterstrike and for additional fury effect. Rest of your defenders goes for the war with whatever comes across. I find this method very good for low lvl hero.

Now. High lvl hero. What can we do about hordes of lvl 6 and 7? Simple. Send your little guy Things you need to creep the map is either resurrection or rune of resurrection along with refresh runes. You should get one of those in each game. (If you can't get rune you may try to lvl Igna if you find her- i use her always to get rune of charge or berserking)
When you got one of those things (or preferably both) you may move go conquer the world with just defenders.

Battle tactics

Place your defenders in the corner of battlefield. All scary monsters are large so you will be attacked by only one at a time. Let your defenders do that they are ment to do- defend. You with your hero in the meantime soften the attacking stack so he wouldnt deal so much damage to your dwarfs. When there are few atackers left dont finish them off, start attacking other stacks(preferably the one which will attack your dwarfs after the current one is dead) You just keep doing that until your dwarfs are getting low in numbers, then you use rune of resurrection or resurrection spell. After you use rune of ressurection just refresh the rune and use it again when combat is going to end soon. Resurrect your stack as many times as you want.

With this strategy ive killed 36 of black dragons week 3 day 1 with minimal losses (didn't have resurrection spell and i used rune couple times which always leaves some losses)

When you got an access to artifact merchant, keep an eye for +1 damage artifact, it is soo good for fortress. If you go for armagedon then you probably want all fire protection arties and phoenix feather cape.

With all those remarks in mind you should get pretty solid hero and army in endgame. Now it's time for runes. They are soo powerful in late game. Make sure you know how to use them properly. Use refresh runes skill efficiently. Rune of resurrection is just crazy in endgame. Along with refresh runes its just wick sick combo, and thanks to you huge hp and defense its hard to wipe out any stack before it will be able to use it. Rune of charge is another lol, with it you just roll over your opponent in first move. I don't like dragonform rune, its effect sounds cool but it is not. Rune of berserking is very important too. Make sure you have both berserking and charge (using Igna if you have to)


All in all i feel quite comfortable when i play dwarfs. There is no need to rush and you can build up your army and know that you have the upper hand in late game. When somebody wanna try to rush you , just hide in your fortress. Few hundreds of additional little fellows from guard post will show any unwelcome guests where is the exit

Ive won a siege fight easily with  6 lvls lower hero with  opponents hero having ring of speed,celerity advantage of 15 points in might skills and some other good stuff while i had poor mans ice ring spell with ice mastery as a weapon of ultimate doom lol. Oh .. i had shackles in case he had realized his mistake and tried to run and look for an open air fight

Watch out for Phoenix in one castle small maps, tho. This spell just kills you too quickly , your army cant defeat it neither your hero. Only way is to kill his troops before he decimates your troops,which is difficult usually since you got some stacks puppeted/frenzied.


My conclusion after few more games with dwarfs:

In big 2 castle maps this castle just nukes everything

ps. Haven't played against mass paladins tho but i have the feeling that it wont make any difference

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 05, 2007 01:46 PM bonus applied.
Edited by Doomforge at 13:49, 05 May 2007.

yeah, dwarves are fun, and they don't need any units in earlygame save shieldguards+ingvar.. these guys hit suprisingly hard, and are next to unkillable with their perks and overall survivability. That just screams for destructive, btw. If you have a unkillable unit that does decent damage, you may want to add some good hero damage aswell. Unfortunately, sorecry is hard to get. You can take Erling, but ingvar is obviously better.

Ingvar can't get preparation too, which annoys me a bit, but the skill is ultimately not THAT great.. I'd just like to have it

And formations are very good, especially when you put weaker units (i.e. berserkers) next to magma dragons, which give helluvaboost to everything around them, especially to DEF.

also, keep an eye for that hero that learns runes spontanously when level-uping. She's great as secondary, and she'll appear sooner or later in your tavern. She'll most likely learn rune of charge and berserking quickly, and since you need both, she can pass them to main hero since he can learn only 1 of them in the rune guild.

btw, I'm not a huge fan of dwarven shooters, ok rune priests are fun with firewall, but they just don't work with the best runes, and their fire mark doesn't benefit magma dragons' fiery attack . Sadly. Their cost RIDICULOUS ammount of resources, too, I'd rather go for more spells&runes rather than extra runepriests. To be honest, warlords, magmas and berserkers do the killing (with ingvar and a bit of luck shieldguards can become suprisingly powerful aswell), and skirmishers+bears do the disabling. priests are just an add-on.

And the cripple+thunderclap+paw strike stops everything, namely arch devils, titans and such. Haven has divine guidance to minimize its impact on combat, though ~~

Finally, runes.. berserking+battlefrenzy on warlords and dragons + lucky strike = everything lies dead. The bolts and breath attack is extremely deadly to clustered packs.. doesn't work against haven again , since the griffins are mainly somewhere in the sky, and palas are next to your units, while squires and marksmen being the only ones close to each other, but against necropolis, dungeon or academy it rocks.

Next, light magic.. Definitively a source of power for dwarves which lack stats. Mass righetous might is godly, but mass haste is equally important. The defense is already high, but mass endurance makes units such as magmas insanely tough. Finally, ressurection paired with rune of ressurection on a severly crippled stack, then refresh rune/greater rune and the unit is back to full strength

Dwarves have poor chances against a good deleb/havez(with flaming arrows)rush, they are generally susceptible to warmachine rushes in earlygame. Of course in their town they are next to undefeatable due to ridiculous guardpost, but a smart player will just steal their mines and resources with scouts, and that way, destroy their vulnerable economy. Yes, I think that it's the best way of fighting the dwarves: h3 style minestealing. without all that shiny junk lying on roads, dwarves are small puppies. They also need a lot of luck to get a good set of runes and spells. Finally, frenzy spell cast by a fast necromancer (don't forget how much the ATB is randomized) means a sad death for your army, which, clustered together in formations, will just kill itself. Watch out. Fallen knights also can do this trick.

Also, a warlock with pendant of mastery can also score some kills, if the warlords+luck won't wipe his army first, ofc



Btw, I think that dwarves, despite their defensive look, need to.. charge. BEst runes need some casualties; if you defend, the enemy will just focus on one unit, kill it, than go to another, and you won't be able to activate berserking&battlerage that way. So, rune of charge, retaliation to get some casualties, then our favorite berserking and battlerage, then ressurection. That seems the best way for me.

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted May 05, 2007 05:39 PM bonus applied.

I'm not a big fan of Ingvar but i Would recommend you to try: Helmar - his Light magic buff is awesome!! I got 2 builds for him.

Light - Abjuration, Eternal Light, Wrath

Logistics - Pathfinder, Snatch, Swift mind

Defense - Protection, Defensive formation, preparation

Luck - Soldiers luck, magic resistance, Dwarven luck

Random - Either Enlightment, Attack or War machines

Here we got Light, which he will be spamming, endurance, Deflect missile, Divine strenght. We got swift mind for quick buffs, snatch for a little treat and else we couldn't have Swift mind. We got defense because I like to be safe. Luck, again a safety. Random - Enlightment for the little goodies, att because they are weak in offense, war machines because they can be mad with those too.

Second build

Light - Abjuration, Eternal Light, Wrath

Enlightment - Arcane intution, tap runes, mentoring

Leadership - Diplomacy, Runic attunement, Empathy

Luck - Soldiers luck, magic resistance, Dwarven luck

Random - Go for anything offensive

Here we need a second hero: Inga - With her little gift you can learn all runes by Getting Helmar to High lvl and just say Hello to Inga. Empathy to make your hero control the battle. Light Because he starts with it and the same as first build . Luck . Again safety. This build is actully better for Destrucktive Hero, why? Empathy. But also with light, you get quick turns you ressurrect, buff or anything else. The offensive random is because Empathy can become very brutal and needs something to work with it.

For creature discuss, i cannot believe you have so much faith in warlords!! I only believe in Berserkers and bears - As Ive said so many times before: Luck, rune, Special, Great hero = Great dmg - That means those too, because they are fastest, can eleminate every everything. Thats how i like to creep! warlords are 3 to move on ATB, my battles are over by their turn ... and they cost a lot ... But so do Priest -

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lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 06, 2007 05:13 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 17:28, 06 May 2007.

Quote:
Ingvar can't get preparation too, which annoys me a bit, but the skill is ultimately not THAT great.. I'd just like to have it


I think this ability is being overestimated. It sounds cool but your opponent almost always has other targets than prepared stacks and therefore you lose an action with your units. From my experience there is no need for so unreliable tactics. You just charge, then resurect then finish of remainings

Who said that dwarfs lack stats? I had a fight vs Inferno , his hero had OVER 40 attack and still his units were boucing of my stacks like they would hit the wall. And when my turn was comming his stacks was perishing after one blow. This fight was even without any light magic tricks on my side.

And one more.. dont let your opponent to capture your castle, lol.

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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2007 09:32 PM

Isn't Helmar better than Ingvar?
1. While casting Light Spells you gain Righteous Might for free
2. You can reach preparation
3. In longer games u can reach Absolute Protection
Are Shieldguards such an extraordinary power while boosted?
Don't think so...
Ingvar can be good at turtling, but when catched at the open air he isn't so frightening opponent (look at those screens from fight between Ingvar and Ossir in Fortress vs Sylvan thread)...
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 06, 2007 09:39 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 21:55, 06 May 2007.

Quote:
Isn't Helmar better than Ingvar?
1. While casting Light Spells you gain Righteous Might for free
2. You can reach preparation
3. In longer games u can reach Absolute Protection


In my opinion, no. Here are my reasons.

First and most important reason is that Ingvar has much easier creeping than Helmar. This alone makes him better. But this is not everything. He starts with triple growth of defenders that are great. Thanks to Ingvar your defenders are a powerhouse in endgame and im not talking about guard post but open air fight. He starts with vitality which is good for dwarfs and more important he has it from start and thanks to it it decreases his casualties while creeping even more.

And about your remarks

1) Cool, you get 1 spell for free, but you can cast this spell anyway using 0,5 of your initiative - poor bonus for a speciality

2) For me preparation isn't good, i wouldn't even take it if i got the chance.

3) Dream on boy...

Oh and those pictures that you are talking about reveal that person who was playing dwarfs wasn't very good player, he had so much smaller army.

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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:06 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 02:53, 10 May 2007.

Anyway he could win all the time...
And that about 0,5 init. Sry, but bull****, cuz I was talkin' 'bout his Sacred Hammer ability. And when he would cast 2 mass spelss ( Haste + Endurance for exaple ), there is a great chance that all of his unitez would get Righteous Might for freeeeeee (with no hereo init. loosin').
And preparation IS good. Cuz when black dragons try to fry your Warlords, your Warlords would smash their dreams with rune of Thunderclap (maybe), or even without it kill 1/2 of em...
...or all
And if you had good itemz, all of your unites would act fast enough to perform defence and prepare to next enemies' strikes...
Btw, I have good luck lately and my dreams do come true
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:10 PM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 22:17, 06 May 2007.

Yeah, preparation is suck, in late game, dwarf rarely stall, charging to the front is better.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:11 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 22:15, 06 May 2007.

I know you were talking bout sacred hammer ability.. and for me it sucks.

His dragons would simply attack some other stacks and you would lose move with your warlords only.

Quote:
all of your unites would act fast enough to perform defence and prepare to next enemies' strikes.


You mean if you have ring of speed and staff of netherworlds, right? With those 2 you have free win anyway so you can take anything you like.

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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:17 PM
Edited by Lesij at 22:19, 06 May 2007.

Quote:
Yeah, preparation is suck, in late game, dwarf rarely stall, charging to the front is better.

Don't most of the dwarves have huge def?
That allows 'em to stand their ground and use defense ability. When enemy attacks them preparations makes him to crash on them as wave crashes on the shore.  
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:22 PM

Still, i prefer super cheap and easy creeping than preparation and sacred hammer.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:27 PM

Quote:
Don't most of the dwarves have huge def?
That allows 'em to stand their ground and use defense ability. When enemy attacks them preparations makes him to crash on them as wave crashes on the shore.  


Unfortunately, they don't have the "stand your ground" perk which would be marvelous with preparation. :-X

I agree with ChaosDragon btw.. swift creeping is always better than a better speciality, especially with such a resource-demanding faction.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 06, 2007 10:35 PM

Sacred hammer is more valuable than you give it credit for. For one Helmar can choose his master perks. With master of wrath he can't go wrong anyway but with another master he can cast 2 mass buffs at once than can turn the tide of battle. For instance righteous magic+haste is awesome on its own but any combo is good plus it can be a real headache with eternal light against dark magic. But in any case, think about it: 12x5=+60% damage, maybe less if opponent has a high defense along with another buff. The dwarves need a damage boost anyway and coupled with luck it can give a great advantage. I have found that I can tackle creeping fine without Ingvar even if he is simply magnificent in it.
Preparation can be just the icing on the cake with the right strategy but I'd rather not depend on it as well.

Finally it's not the earlygame but the endgame that counts and Helmar be better in the end. He is not too bad in the beginning either.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 06, 2007 10:41 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 22:42, 06 May 2007.

Um Elvin i think you are totally forgeting about Ingvars ability. Without it your defenders are a poor tanks. Ingvar makes them decent warriors and this is better than extra spell (which you can cast anyway using 0.5 init if i may repeat myself)

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 06, 2007 11:01 PM
Edited by Elvin at 23:02, 06 May 2007.

Well, I tend to play with Karli so I have luck for damage and I also get def asap-this way I don't have much shieldguard action. But when I get another hero it's easy to get def->vitality and I can do fine with the ones I have in the first week. From then on I depend mostly on the blackbear riders though I will agree that Ingvar will always be better. I have seen that his shieldguards will survive and hit hard even later on.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 06, 2007 11:06 PM

Yeah , Karli and Ebba are ok too but i like Ingvar better.

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sq79
sq79


Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2007 09:55 AM
Edited by sq79 at 09:58, 07 May 2007.

Actually they do pretty bad against most races in the late game except against necro maybe, but i think ingvar is the best option for hero, that's no question for me though. Their main problem is initiative. They're very easily subjected to a full meteor shower from a dungeon hero since most of their troops have iniaitive less than 10, slower than sylvan, haven and academy(with arties) also..
As for creeping, i'm not too sure, but i don't think ingvar can creep as well as ossir, example, in the game, ossir with 80-90 hunters can already take on utopia and a throng of death knights without losses, that is probably something ingvar can't manage without war machines especially unless he want some serious losses..
Also other than academy with 2% logs but however there are blessed with the ability to take on fights easier than most races while most races can shoot to expert logs by the end of week1 normally. Since then ... the other faction will do 30% every day over fortress that puts them in a disadvantage. Over a long game, that is gonna hurt badly really.

Can't really say they can get overpowered even with runes..  

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2007 10:20 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 10:48, 07 May 2007.

Well.. i have played too few games to be certain anything but i think you are wrong in some points. Lack of logistics hurts , especially on maps with stables,true. But i already know that late game is good for dwarfs. Shower wastes every race so its not a feature of dwarfs only, and actually their rune of charge enables to charge warlock first turn, which is essential. Another thing that dwarfs have problem with is phoenix and mind spells. Without cleansing its bad, its not a disaster but if phoenix joins action and you cant control all of your stacks you just lost. About sylvan and heaven .. i think dwarfs should feel quite comfortable against those castles...time will tell

About creeping .. killing uncommon things like utopias and other tough neutrals. So far i have sticked to my standard procedure of Ingvar + defenders + destructive. Its not really good way since you lose your precious defenders but i cant figure out a better way , still. Perhaps war machines isnt a bad choice on some maps after all.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 07, 2007 11:14 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:16, 07 May 2007.

Quote:
but i don't think ingvar can creep as well as ossir, example, in the game, ossir with 80-90 hunters can already take on utopia and a throng of death knights without losses


It's possible on how many maps.. 1? Double castle maps with an external tier3 dwelling only. Try to play peninsula with Ossir, you'll understand..

Quote:
Also other than academy with 2% logs but however there are blessed with the ability to take on fights easier than most races while most races can shoot to expert logs by the end of week1 normally. Since then ... the other faction will do 30% every day over fortress that puts them in a disadvantage. Over a long game, that is gonna hurt badly really.


It hurts, but not in endgame, where the dwarven hero is a walking god. It hurts earlier, when you can't repel fast logistics-based annoyers sent at your mines and resources that lie close to you. They just laugh   at you and run. pretty annoying, i'd say. Especially if there are stables around. When I tried dwarves for the first time, my opponent totally outplayed me that way (he was playing inferno). I could do literally nothing about hordes of heroes running loose, stealing everything around. Extremely annoying. After he scouted my terrain and lost some scouts, he exactly knew where my heroes were. I couldn't counter that.


Btw, feluniozbunio, it's not heaven, it's haven(przystań tudzież nadbrzeżna warownia ). I know there are angels there, but it still does not make it a paradise Unless you play 1.00 klaus, that is. That's indeed imba paradise, then


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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2007 11:27 AM

Quote:
Btw, feluniozbunio, it's not heaven, it's haven(przystań tudzież nadbrzeżna warownia ).


Oh lol i never payed attention to the spelling. I guess i assumed angels are from heaven and i thought its heaven lol.

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