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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered
Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered [ This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 (7) 8 9 10 11 ]
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 21, 2008 05:59 AM

I have only tried that with Ossir and in that map you start with upg tier 1, tier 2 and you can build hunters the first day. Also has some chests for fast leveling. Actually sylvan cannot take them all out week 1 as ghosts, hunters and their respective upgrades are too much. The rest are easy, except for squires/vindicators that need you to be careful with with hunters and sprite distractions - and of course wait until they are in range before you waste your shots. I think it's possible to take them out with hero and sprites alone by luring them to follow and using hit&runs. Should you upgrade the hunters it will be a piece of cake.
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Pinkspear
Pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted January 21, 2008 04:42 PM

Yesterday I tried BfH with dwarves, even though I hate playing with them, so my advices may be not the most reliable but I noticed a few things:

1. Start with ingvar. His shieldguards are able to take down any lvl   1-2 creeps easily, along with non-shooting lvl 3s (squires, minos etc.).

2. Don't take destructive and war machine skills. I got triple ballista and tent but the ballista dealt pathetic damage, and the biggest loss was about 5 shieldguard in a tough fight so I think tent doesn't worth it. Destructive on the other hand is too slow without sorcery and is not powerful without enlightenment. Though I got +6 spellpower artfact week 3 and slippers with implosion, the damage wasn't too good.

3. I think luck and light magic is the way to go with them. Also if you play ingvar get preparation asap, with pre-requisite def. formation this ability is a killer.

4. I still have only theories how to break in week 4 with them. The main problem is that you need magic AND creatures AND runes to be effective. Though if you get resurrection and/or divine vengeance and ressurection rune blackies and shieldguards may do the job.

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted January 22, 2008 07:10 AM

leadership with empathy helps increase the rate of casting, so I think it's also a good choice
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 22, 2008 07:41 AM

Quote:
leadership with empathy helps increase the rate of casting, so I think it's also a good choice

It is, only downside is, that this build excludes Warlocks Luck, because you need:
LEADERSHIP - Diplomacy + Empathy
ENLIGHTENMENT - Scholar + Arcane Exaltation (prereq for Empathy)
DEFENSE - Vitality + Defensive Formation + Preparation (excellent skill for caster, creatures have more hp, more defense, attacks first and morale triggers even it they defend)
DESTRUCTIVE - Master of Fire + Secrets of Destruction + Ignite (usually best way, Armageddon + tiers immune to fire + Runes + Preparation)
SORCERY - pretty much anything, Distraction way against casters, or Arcane Excellence if you are short on mana

Too bad that Dwarves have 30% to gain Spellpower, so Enlightenment + Arties + SP-up perks are essential. Nevertheless, they are good Armageddonists.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 22, 2008 08:05 AM
Edited by Elvin at 08:07, 22 Jan 2008.

Oh yes The thing is that they are not good destructive casters early and have to rely a bit on might or light - Helmar comes to mind. Tried the other day a game I did not finish, got Ingvar as secondary(I still consider him cheap for a main ) so my Helmar had an impressive number of shieldguards day 1. Those with righteous might and divine strength are really good hitters, give them battle frenzy and they are killing machines.

Unfortunately I was not offered attack and vitality came a little later. Even with their boosted damage and numbers many died because the mines were guarded by tough melee as maulers and minotaur guards. Even the slow moving steel golems caused me some casualties. I guess they just can't take everything week 1 as some other factions but blackbear riders are a nice compensation later. Maybe that was intentional because the dwarves are a very strong faction from midgame on.

In any case I will continue the game and post my findings about facing stronger creeps by week 3-4. Probably 4 because I don't see myself getting logistics. Will probably build bears on the second town as I'm still in week 2. Not surprisingly by beginning of week 2 I usually have 10-11 level and with dwarves I had 8. And had to be close to town to get the blackbears from a secondary
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Pinkspear
Pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted January 22, 2008 12:56 PM

The problem with dwarves is that they lack some heavy-hitter creature or mad casting skills to creep high level creeps during earlygame. It seems to me dwarves remained endgame winners even with Tote changes.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 23, 2008 10:20 AM
Edited by Elvin at 10:20, 23 Jan 2008.

I continued my game and I guess it was not as disappointing in the end. As foretold I built all but the priests and upgraded the first 4 tiers. At first I believed that I would not build runic guild 3 so I skipped it but was I ever wrong. By week 4 you can spare the money and either of the lvl 3 runes would have helped a lot.
Also I was unlucky to get -2 luck and morale because of week and no soldier's luck even if I got luck a few levels before the fight with the 45 archdevils. If I had I'd probably have used battleragers and skirmishers though berserkers with mass haste and stormwind(lower initiative for enemy) worked like a charm. Arcane crystal would have probably helped to block the devils from attacking them with 0 defense but in the end rune of resurrection with refresh rune greatly lessened my casualties.


My skills



Replays: Pack of untamed cyclopses week 4 which was piece of cake but I did not pass through that place earlier and the 45 archdevils week 4. Total casualties 11 bears and 12 berserkers.


Seeing that it would have worked to use only shieldguards with endurance/rune of resurrection and kill the others with direct spells and tap runes/refresh rune combo. Anyway preparation is good but power of endurance is something else

If instead I got thunderclap rune I'd have to use the old fashioned way Btw with this hero you don't need more than mage guild 1 for this map.

Edit: Thanks Anakrom
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 23, 2008 11:13 AM

Thanks for your post Elvin. You made right decision to pick Berserkers over Battleragers, because Battleragers are far more useful when you have Soldierīs Luck and maybe Preparation - I am personally using them after casting Mass Haste to steal some weak retal (to raise attack and initiative) and then to attack enemy key stack and keep Bashing them (Rune of Berserking comes handy). Without Soldierīs Luck are Berserkers way better (no retal) - only thing that I will have to find out is if Power of Endurance raises Berserkers attack rating after activating their ability, I am still not much sure about that one. Stormwind was pretty smart choice, I wouldnīt think about that one, but its actually tough decision, because if I see in Tavern that enemy is Nathir or such, I usually head for Fire Resistance (to stop Master of Fire defense penalty and lower damage, but I havenīt tried in TotE yet, maybe fire-proof creatures are possibility), Abjuration + Supress against Knights (Marksmen + buffs), Eternal Light against Necros - too bad that Light has so many useful perks.
I agree about that Preparation, its good mainly for casters, might dwarves with runes can storm enemy troops, so Power of Endurance seems much better. Does Power activate Sacred Hammer speciality?  I never used Power and Helmar much, so I will have to try both Battle for Honor and Helmar. As soon as I will complete my exams from History of Prehistoric Aegean - I fully understand you in that point about Urban History.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 23, 2008 01:37 PM

Yeah I noticed something about Greek archeology Stormwind was a tough choice because I was also offered adv luck and it was that unlucky week two. Even -1 luck is too much because by statistics every 1.5 rounds roughly(less with mass haste) you'll get an unlucky hit. Btw you may have noticed that the harpooners were worth it to bring the devils closer to the berserkers

About light magic both power of endurance and speed trigger sacred hammer but also allow you to be picky in the light perk section. And personally I find defense and attack crucial at least for a might build. They with light and luck give a pretty solid hero, only thing I'd miss is tap runes that is mostly for magic heroes or retribution but I'd pursue that in a long game. Guaranteed mass haste is hard to give up if you don't get the spell.
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 23, 2008 03:01 PM

Harpooners can be very tricky, too bad that they lose Crippling Wound, so its better to split them in stack of Skimishers and Harpooners and use both abilities - their damage isnīt that high anyway, but Cripple and Harpoon can provide great help. Helmar is scary, with Power of Endurance and Sacred Hammer its like +12 attack and defense to your whole army, if you are lucky enough. Thats more than creature specialists, and for whole army, sounds very nice. Defence and attack are essential imo too, Vitality shines with dwarves and opens road to many useful perks. Attack is needed, too bad that Battle Frenzy, which is perfect for early Shieldguard and Spearwielder creeping, blocks path to Retribution. But imo is Leadership least needed from might skills - Attack, Defense, Luck and Light Magic are way to go. And on smaller maps player canīt achieve level 25+ anyway, so if I donīt have Haste in my guild, I would head for Power of Speed - prereq is Battle Frenzy anyway, great for small maps, and Tactics helps bears to reach shooters guarding mines. I find Offensive Formation weaker in endgame anyway (maybe because I donīt see its direct impact on battle), because I usually charge enemy with all I have as long as I have numbers + runes, and that bonus its significant if your army is scattered all over the battlefield.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 23, 2008 03:51 PM

Something else that I'd like to try is Inga with a destructive build. She's tailor made for quick empathy and destructive is a fairly common skill. Should you get sorcery and luck it's gonna be one heck a time

But for warlock's luck Erling is a better pick. Though he'd miss the free runes. Somehow with dwarves I feel that no matter which one you pick something is missing. Ebba for instance has tactics and easy battle frenzy but unupgraded bears die easily in the first week which is annoying. Invar is awesome(even overpowered) but then I miss sacred hammer Helmar on the other hand may not get battle frenzy fast and will not pursue destructive. Then Karli starts with the best skills luck and soldier's luck..

I wish it was that way with other factions.
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 23, 2008 05:31 PM

Iīve tried Destructive dwarves several times, and choice of hero took me pretty long time. Dwarven heroes are overally good, but as you said, something is alway missing.

INGA:
+ Assures you, that you will get Rune of Ressurection, keystone for caster. Good for small maps, same as Destructive. Rune of Etherealness, Magic Immunity and Dragonform are useful too.
+ Enlightenment boosts exp from very start of game.
- Weak creeping, enlightenment wonīt save you. Defense and Destructive needed badly.
- Too bad that Scholar blocks Graduate and Wizardīs Reward, but there is nothing that can be done about it.

ERLING:
+ Advanced Sorcery opens path to Walockīs Luck/Arcane Excellence. Moreover, Sorcery has 2% to appear when you level-up. My favourite pick, mostly because of that terribly low chance of getting Sorcery.
- Creeping is pain, until you get Eldritch Arrow or other useful spell, than its managable.
* Strange thing about him, I played with Erling several times, and he seems to be getting Spellpower more than others, +6 SP during 6 level-ups, strange huh?

HELMAR:
- Combination of Light and Destructive isnīt my cup of tea really
- Special isnīt that useful for Destructive casters

EBBA:
- Attack is good skill for dwarves, Tactics is useful, but for pure caster...
- Fortress has Tiers 1,3 and 4 unusable until upgrade

INGVAR:
+ He is overpowered
- He is overpowered
* I used him alot, but seriously, he is way too strong - easy creeping, Vitality - way to Preparation, lot of creatures - I would feel lame if I abused him.

SVEA:
+ Starts with Destructive
- Also, starts with Master of Storms

KARLI:
+ Very useful skill, Soldierīs Luck is most useful skill for dwarves
+ Specializes in creature which come in numbers, makes creeping faster and slows down enemies. Ideal for caster.
- Sorcery has 2% to pop up, otherwise he would be my favourite.

For dwarven caster is most difficult question: Warlocks Luck or Empathy? Getting both is possible, but you will lack Defense - which is skill, that can save you - buys you a time (guess why Dungeon and Academy doesnīt have it). Empathy requires Enlightenment and Leadership - first boost exp, SP and Defence, wow. But Leadership is 4 skills because of faster casting (its not bad anyway, Diplomacy can win game) - I would not choose that against Necro. Warlocks Luck requires Soldierīs Luck and Arcane Brillance - you need SL anyway, because of Cripple, Paw Strike, Bash and Mark of Fire. Arcane Brillance is +2 SP, not bad anyway. Hard decision.

In ideal case it would look like:
Empathy way - Fight starts, you defend with all you have + Runes of Etherealness/Magic Immunity, morale triggers, you cast like crazy. Enemy reaches you, Preparation + Defensive Formation shows him meaning of word Hell.

Luck way - Fight starts, defence + Runes, lucky Preparation + nasty Fortress abilities (Mark of Fire + Bash). Flamelords can put Mark of Fire on target, so only splitted tiers 5-7 comes to mind. One stack of Magma, 2 Lords, 4 Patriarchs - after one turn, everything but Magmas will lie dead, but if you will have some luck, key enemy units will be marked - and Lucky Ignite Armageddon should do the work. Can be used as "hit and run" - Shieldguards, Spears, Bears and Battleragers are quite killer with runes anyway. Attack enemy with fire-proof units and  when Magma will be low on numbers, run. I tried that only once against  Inferno, and Familiars reduced my mana only to 3 Armageddons with Ignite, but anyway, his army was in ruins, I just rehired in city and attacked with large numbers of lower tiers + runes. Quite funny game. So my favourite for caster is Erling, but as I said, I prefer might dwarves, so I not experienced with Destructive - moreover, Fortress rocks mainly with Armageddon, without it its not that funny. Iīm looking forward to next report from your playing experiences Elvin, I havenīt fully appreciated Empathy strategy yet, so Iīm curious about someone elseīs opinion.
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Orodruin
Orodruin


Adventuring Hero
posted February 11, 2008 01:36 PM

Has anyone noticed how powerful the thunder thanes are? I mean, they're not only tough to kill, that chain-lighting-like ability gives me a headache every time I play against Fortress faction, 'cause if they attack first, it's enough to diminish most of my army. I play mostly with sylvan and shall I tell you, the only thing that saves me is the pristine unicorn's child of the light ability, with that I ressurect two diferrent stacks at once. One possible solution would be to lower the thane's speed with artifacts, so they can't attack me first.  
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elmek
elmek


Adventuring Hero
posted February 11, 2008 02:02 PM

Quote:
Has anyone noticed how powerful the thunder thanes are? I mean, they're not only tough to kill, that chain-lighting-like ability gives me a headache every time I play against Fortress faction, 'cause if they attack first, it's enough to diminish most of my army. I play mostly with sylvan and shall I tell you, the only thing that saves me is the pristine unicorn's child of the light ability, with that I ressurect two diferrent stacks at once. One possible solution would be to lower the thane's speed with artifacts, so they can't attack me first.  

To reduce the storm strike effect, you need to keep your units spread against them. Tight formation is not a best idea against Thunder Thanes, do not keep units next to each other to break the chain.

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Ebbafan
Ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 12, 2008 01:40 PM

dwarves are the best! i just found out you can combine berserk and battle rage runes, tremendously damaging, i tell you!

did anyone ever get absolute protection? can't imagine how powerful that would be!
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elmek
elmek


Adventuring Hero
posted February 12, 2008 06:48 PM

I recall watching some replays with AP in action. Never got it myself, prefer light over destr&summoning

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Drunk_Lord
Drunk_Lord


Known Hero
very happy hero :)
posted February 14, 2008 08:52 AM
Edited by Drunk_Lord at 08:53, 14 Feb 2008.

@ebbafan
Runelore is like something like having ur own magic. U can use it so much directions, that nearly everything is possible.
For this just don't ask
Attack-Path to retribution
Leadership-Runic morale thing(u need it for retribution)divine guidance also is pretty good
Luck-exp lvl(no perks)
Light-Master of Wrath
Exp Runelore-Rune of Battle Rage + Rune of Berserking
It's an overkill with thanes morale(enchances the possibillity to combine runes), probably lucky attacks, retribution, haste(why not righteous might with Helmar ). I have done thisalready and it's sweet: Thanes got in the middle of enemy ranks, OMFG berserking + luck + battle rage = got thanes ? This really kills u opponent in one action
Also rune of battle rage + rune of thunderclap + soldier's luck is annoying too
Note that there's one free skill slot for a skill of ur choice

Now here's another one which is very good too:
Enlightenment-just on exp lvl
Light-masters of wrath and abjuration
Attack-again go for retribution
Leadership-Attunement
Luck-on exp lvl
Exp Runelore-Rune Of Dragonform
With increased stats from enlightenment + ednurance + righteous might(and fast) if Helmar's special work u get +12 ATT\DEF + high skills from enlightenment and now here it comes...     RUNE OF DRAGONFORM U get crazy amounts of ATT\DEF If dwarfs can become even more annoying that's the way Great if u cast a mass haste and now u can begin slamming ur opponent to the ground

P.S. can u guys tell me, does rune of dragonform triggers twice? For example I use it once and get 12 ATT. If I use it another time before the effect had weared off, will I get 24ATT? Thanx


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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted February 14, 2008 09:04 AM

Quote:
P.S. can u guys tell me, does rune of dragonform triggers twice? For example I use it once and get 12 ATT. If I use it another time before the effect had weared off, will I get 24ATT? Thanx



No.  When your creature gets its turn again that ends the effect of the first use of the rune.

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Drunk_Lord
Drunk_Lord


Known Hero
very happy hero :)
posted February 14, 2008 09:25 AM

thanks
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 14, 2008 09:53 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:54, 14 Feb 2008.

I've started to wonder if it's a good idea to "break" with fortress on those hg like maps.

You miss a lot XP, true, but you can not do it quickly anyway, so what's the rush? The longer you stay there, the bigger your chances are Leaving it to your opponent is perhaps the way of playing this faction.

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