Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered
Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 07, 2007 08:59 PM

Quote:
Magma dragon gets killed by a hero attack, by vorpal swords, by empowered lucky spells, by harm touch even. Each faction has a number of counters.
Well so do all tier 7s...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 07, 2007 09:05 PM

Yeah, and magma dragons are also the weakest damage dealers and their init isn't amazing; their specials also have nothing to do with offense. And given that they have multiple ways to bypass their insane def-hp supremacy, they just need the runes in order not to become the worst of all level 7s.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 07, 2007 09:11 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 21:15, 07 Jun 2007.

Quote:
Tell me which of their units are good, then. and why

ShieldGuards/Defenders - Overpowered compared to other similar tank units such as the Footman/Zombie etc.

Bear Rider/Black Bear Rider - Overpowered, especially the Black one

Thane/Warlord - Overpowered (not considering the Dwelling... but this is not the way to do it! [I mean, making the dwelling expensive because the creature is overpowered] because it can happen to be rich in resources at times... just check YOUR great battles thread - you had around 90 rare resources)

Fire Dragon/Magma Dragon - Overpowered.


Want some math calculations? Ok, I'll choose Defender .vs Footman for a start. (based on cost, otherwise it's not fair since the Footman is tier 3 and the Defender tier 1)


Footman cost 90, Defender 24, so 3.75 Defenders equal 1 footman.

3.75 Defenders deal 3.75 damage; with attack 1 vs 8 of footman, they deal 3.75/(1+(8-1)*0.05) = 3.75/1.35 = 2.77

1 Footman deals 3 damage; with attack 4 vs 4 of defender, it stays 3

3/2.77 = 1.083, so the Footman is with 8.3% better in damage... or not
If we apply initiative (I know this method is a rougly approximation, but initiative is even BETTER than this, since it gives more actions, not only more damage), we multiply 1.083 by (0.8/0.9) and get 0.962 (since the init of defender is 9 and of the footman only 8). The inverse of this number is 1.038.

So far, the Defender is with 3.8% better than the Footman.

Now comes the really overpowered thing, the Hit points.

3.75*7 = 26.25
26.25/16 = 1.64!

1.64*1.038 = 1.7!!! This means the Defender is with 70% stronger than the Footman! Both have Speed 4, both have enraged and both have Large Shield. The difference is that the Defender has the Armoured ability and the Footman Bash... I know Bash is stronger than Armoured, but 70%?!? Come on, it should've been around 10-15%!


The ShieldGuard is even more overpowered. Despite the Defender's overpowered stats, the ShieldGuard receives the Shield Wall ability almost FOR FREE, making him even more strong for the price!

Let's see:
ShieldGuard cost 40 Gold, 40/24 = 1.66

1.66 Defenders do 1.66/(1+(5-1)*0.05) = 1.383 damage
1 ShieldGuard deals 1.5/(1+(4-1)*0.05) = 1.304 damage

1.383/1.304 = 1.06 (Defender deals 6% more damage)

1.66 Defenders have 1.66*7 = 11.66 Hit Points, 1 ShieldGuard has 12!

11.66/12 = 0.972
0.972*1.06 = 1.03

So, the Defender is only with 3% stronger than the ShieldGuard, but the upgraded version has Shield Wall ability, and I don't think it's worth only 3%, right? (the ability, I mean)



I can show you why the other creatures I mentioned are overpowered with the same calculations, but you just tell me with who you want me to test 'em... it should be someone similar to avoid "this ability is much better than that one!" things.
Also, note that there are more overpowered creatures out there for each faction, but no one has 4 (and even high level ones!) like the Dwarves. (1... maybe 2 MAX for others)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Lednah
Lednah


Hired Hero
posted June 07, 2007 09:12 PM

Talking about magma dragons: I noticed the fire shield don't do fire damage when unit with bewrserk rune attacks it. Of course there is no retaliation, but the fire shield always do fire damage when you perform melee attacks against it - even if you kill the dragons the shield still do damage. So this appears to be a bug.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted June 07, 2007 09:15 PM

Quote:
Yeah, and magma dragons are also the weakest damage dealers and their init isn't amazing; their specials also have nothing to do with offense. And given that they have multiple ways to bypass their insane def-hp supremacy, they just need the runes in order not to become the worst of all level 7s.


Come on, Fire Breath is offensive and surely you know that a magma dragon without runes is better than a spectral dragon and it's specials are more useful than say the archangel or arch devil.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted June 07, 2007 09:24 PM

They are not overpowered! They are just small hairy men! Leave them alone! ... Small hairy men need something to defend them! ... Thick skin, armour and plenty of runes! Thats how dwarves survie, just look out in the real world! STILTS! made for the dwarves!! ... My god, Long live DWARVS... Not overpowered just small and hairy, and yes light magic + rune = ROCKS ... Wuuhuu. Forge and Fire .. Now lets go have a beer lads! .
____________
Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 07, 2007 09:25 PM

Quote:
They are not overpowered! They are just small hairy men! Leave them alone! ... Small hairy men need something to defend them! ... Thick skin, armour and plenty of runes! Thats how dwarves survie, just look out in the real world! STILTS! made for the dwarves!! ... My god, Long live DWARVS... Not overpowered just small and hairy, and yes light magic + rune = ROCKS ... Wuuhuu. Forge and Fire .. Now lets go have a beer lads! .
Do you have some personal affection to these 'small hairy men'?

In that case I could start to cry for Necro being underpowered beside them

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 07, 2007 09:33 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 21:38, 07 Jun 2007.

Ok, now it's the Magma Dragon versus your beloved ArchDevils

Let's say they cost the same (even though the Magma Dragon is a little cheaper)

The Dragon deals 45*(1+(30-29)*0.05) = 47.25 damage.
With initiative included, it deals 47.25*0.9 = 42.525 damage.

The ArchDevil deals 51/(1+(40-31)*0.05) = 35.17 damage.
With initiative included, it deals 35.17*1.1 = 38.68 damage.

42.525/38.68 = 1.099 (the Magma Dragon deals 10% more damage than the ArchDevil)


Now the Hit Points:
280/199 = 1.4 (the Magma Dragon has 40% more Hit Points)


Overall:
1.099*1.4 = 1.54 (the Magma Dragon is 54% better overall)


Now the abilities:
ArchDevil: Teleport, Summon Pit Lords
Magma Dragon: Fire Breath, Magma Shield, Elemental, Immune to Fire

Elemental is both good and bad, but I think it's more to the good side, since it makes it immune to MIND CONTROL and Poison and other effects, but also immune to Resurrection.

So it's FireBreath + Magma Shield + Immune to Fire + 54%_better_stats = Teleport + Summon Pit Lords

IMO, above should be > instead of = right from the start. Even the abilities are better than those of the ArchDevil (or at most EQUAL)! Fire Breath is as wonderful as Summon Pit Lords and Teleport can be considered as Magma Shield (though IMO Teleport is weaker), not mentioning the Fire Immunity and the good part of the Elemental ability.

Quote:
They are not overpowered! They are just small hairy men! Leave them alone! ... Small hairy men need something to defend them! ... Thick skin, armour and plenty of runes! Thats how dwarves survie, just look out in the real world! STILTS! made for the dwarves!! ... My god, Long live DWARVS... Not overpowered just small and hairy, and yes light magic + rune = ROCKS ... Wuuhuu. Forge and Fire .. Now lets go have a beer lads! .

Ok... but they are certanly NOT POOR like Doom said (even stronger than others)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 07, 2007 09:35 PM

Mind implosion imminent...
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 07, 2007 09:37 PM

Quote:
Mind implosion imminent...


LOL, you've seen nothing
I just did A LOT of these calculations to test various creatures, and now I seen how terrbile balanced some of them are (especially the tier 5+ ones tend to be overpriced)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 07, 2007 09:40 PM

Actually that wasn't aimed at you You just got to post faster!

About statistics and such I admit that I wouldn't bother to do it but I enjoy reading it if only to have a more tangible evidence to the units' effectiveness.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sanyu
Sanyu


Known Hero
posted June 10, 2007 05:45 PM

Err... lets see... fortress has horrible creatures but powerful racial ability = balanced

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 10, 2007 06:56 PM

Quote:
Ok, now it's the Magma Dragon versus your beloved ArchDevils


try magma dragon vs. pit lord, smartass What's wrong? Pit lords won with 0 casualties? xD

Come on comparing units like that is pointless.

Magma dragons are fun, but only with runes. Otherwise they are just something meant for heroes and spells to tear apart. No thinking player will waste time attacking them their power lies within the runes and spells.. use them with necropolis and you shall see.

How ironic.. I try to convince you that you shouldn't take all the factors into consideration.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 10, 2007 08:34 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 20:35, 10 Jun 2007.

I get the point of what you say.

But this still does not prove that the fortress has weak units. Just tell me why you find the ArchDevil better than the Magma Dragon? And yes, I'm not comparing 1vs1, if I had to compare the Pit Lord, I wouldn't take the Vorpal Sword as a powerful ability into consideration

As you see, I didn't compare 'Who Wins' in a 1vs1 fight, I compared their stats and abilities.

The conclusion: Mamga Dragon has 54% better stats and the abilites at least as good as the ArchDevil's. So, even if you may not accept the idea of being overpowered, it is not weak!.

The Fortress units are NOT weak! You maybe think that because they are all tankish and the hero is tankish too. But, just because you don't like tanks doesn't mean the units are weak

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 10, 2007 09:40 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:42, 10 Jun 2007.

Oh, I just love tanks! I hate weaklings that perish after a gust of wind, like blood furies, you know

But the problem lies elsewhere. I would never call a level 7 unit a tank. Because of their low total hp, there are millions of ways to destroy them without caring for their superb defenses. You know, vorpals, destructive, harmtouches, hero melee attacks, sharpshooters' special, raiders' charge, marksmen's piercing shot.. The level 7s actually can die quickly because of these things. That's why it's better for them to be fully offensive: they can at least do the damage and THAT cannot be evaded. High defense, for units with low total HP, can be.

And, I love magma dragons. Why would I have one on my avatar if I did not? The point is this great crature needs a lot of buffs to become a truly powerful unit. Fortunately, fortress has the ability to use them.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted June 10, 2007 09:44 PM

These are no longer overpowered, just see those new alts! They kick these little hairy guys way to hard!
____________
Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 17, 2008 03:10 AM

It has been a long time since anyone posted here. Does anyone play the dwarves with TotE? How have the alternatives and new skillwheel affected your game?

I feel really rusty with them, back when I played them in 2.0 I was not used to multiplayer pace and lately saw for myself that fighting certain units early will just give you casualties. And I mean minotaurs guards, steel golems, squires.
Of course by week 2 that won't matter because blackbear riders have amazing creeping potential. With tactics it's bye bye shooters - no sweat.

At first I was concerned that they'd lose battle frenzy because retribution seems a lot more important in the long run but then memory mentors were introduced and new maps tend to have one accessible. Creep with frenzy then forget it and aim for retribution And if you did not get hastle you keep it anyway and aim for power of haste. They can also get a pretty good magic build.

Anyway what really concerns me is high level creeps early. Suppose you aim for battle for honor week 3-4, how would you do that? Rune of resurrection is not always the one you get to use just shieldguards nor can you always afford a mage guild 5 and still have your units/runic guild. Destructive with warlock's luck and ignite will deal with it efficiently I'm sure but what about might? Another I'd try it blackbear riders with soldier's luck/mass haste/leadership but not sure it can take care of 4 devil stacks. Or even worse what about archangels that will instantly hit your large units?
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 20, 2008 05:02 PM


Well, with TotE, I donīt find my gameplay much different. Alternatives arenīt that shiny as Sylvan etc.
Mountain Guards are way worse than Shieldguards, Shield Wall is pretty essential for early creeping.
Harpooners have pretty decent damage, and can be helpful in final battles. I tend to upgrade Spearwielders quite late, because of Crystals needed to build dwelling. But in first few weeks is Crippling Wound better for creeping, so I stick with unupgraded ones.
Whitebears are weaker against undead and such, and their special doesnīt trigger that often as Paw Strike does, moreover, Blackies are creeping machines.
Battleragers - I was sceptical about them, but after some time of using, I found out that they suit my strategy better than Berserkers. They have +5 hp, and they come in numbers, so they last longer, Bash is triggered quite often (Soldierīs Luck) and their passive specials are nice too - level 4 upgraded, but 16 attack, 11 defense and initiative 13 if they fight large creature after being wounded. Sounds maybe complicated, but they are very helpful in final battles and are usable in case you have Preparation, not like Berserkers.
Rune Keepers - I had them only few times, they have higher attack, but I like Firewall better.
Flamelords are amazing if you split them into several stacks, use their skill (Mark of Fire) and then Armageddon-till-death. Dwarves have Tier 5,6 and 7 immune to fire and with high defence and hp, so chance to win the fight is quite high. But anyway, I prefer Thunder Thanes because of ability to hit multiple enemies. Flames for casters, Thunders for might heroes.
Lava somehow sux, I like Magmas because of defence.

TotE skillwheel offers Warlocks Luck for casters (Luck is must anyway), access to Teleport Assault and easier way to Preparation (Vitality and Defensive Formation are pretty good). New perks in Enlightenment, Sorcery and Destructive boosts mainly caster heroes.

Early creeping depends on main hero. Ingvars creeping potential is pretty strong. Karli is ok too, but its better to avoid shooters, on the other hand, walkers are easy. I usually put all Sperwielders to corner, and surround them with stacks of Defenders, containing about 4 each. Rest of Defenders is on the opposite side of battlefield. Creeps tend to attack smaller stacks, but Shieldwall reduces losses, while Spears have full range and Cripples enemies. Strong Defender stack is used to deliver final blow. Battle rage is pretty needed. Other way are Warmachines. Nevertheless, Erling have quite bad creeping early, Sorcery wonīt help you much, without Destructive and spell.

I never played Battle for Honor unfortunately. Canīt be Devil/Angels just avoided by using Instant Travel? I usually play might dwarves, so I would try to Cripple them + Preparation + Rune of Thunderclap + Ressurection spell, but if they reach you in first turn, only hope is to block them through small stacks + Tactics. That Blackie strategy should be working too Elvin, but it is quite unpredictable, I would try it only in case I would have Ressurection spell.
____________
Result matters

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 20, 2008 08:01 PM

Ok a few basic things about the map. Has second town guarded by 10 air and fire elementals which you should be able to take during the first week. All 4 mines have lots of tier 3 and gold mine lots of earth elementals. You can only break through lots of titans or lots of archdevils(turn into horde by week 4) and instant travel is disabled. Oh and there's a tier 3 generator so you could gather a good army of bears.

Anyway that's just one map. I like creeping intensive maps where you must defeat powerful neutrals early, much like let's fight. The deal is that I don't know if that is balanced for all factions. Dungeon, academy, sylvan, orcs I know that they can play fast and deal with hordes of tier 3 in mines week 1, lots of tier 7 to break week 2-3, some  hordes of tier 5-6 during week 3 and horde of archangels by week 4.
Luck plays some role of course, most should have trouble dealing with emeralds anytime soon. Or titans.

Preparation and rune of thunderclap seems a good alternative that I had not thought of When I get the time I'd like to give them a shot in tough maps. Thanks for the comments anakrom
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
forest001
forest001


Known Hero
posted January 21, 2008 11:50 AM

Quote:
Dungeon, academy, sylvan, orcs I know that they can play fast and deal with hordes of tier 3 in mines week 1, lots of tier 7 to break week 2-3, some  hordes of tier 5-6 during week 3 and horde of archangels by week 4.



can you tell me how to defeat horde of tier 3 in week one as a sylvan?
because i found it very hard. thanks in advance

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0776 seconds