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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered
Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 05, 2007 02:28 PM

I think the Runes are overpowered... Firstly they are too cheap, and secondly, they don't waste the creature's nor the hero's turn.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 05, 2007 02:44 PM

Well they are pretty strong in endgame and a combination of light/luck and runes is deadly. Normally a mass haste can be countered but you had the rare swift mind so he could not counter that in time.

He should have had better placement though, what did he expect against dragons and warlords? Placing units close against dwarves is asking for it.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 05, 2007 02:47 PM

Yeah but let's look at Rune of Resurrection... if you have enough resources to cast it on all stacks (not a big problem since it's so cheap - I mean in endgame), it's like having 40% more resistant troops! (not counting Refreshing or other runes)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 05, 2007 02:51 PM

Quote:
I think the Runes are overpowered... Firstly they are too cheap, and secondly, they don't waste the creature's nor the hero's turn.


third, without them dwarves are wimps so they kinda have to be strong in order for this whole faction to prevail ^_^

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 05, 2007 03:02 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 15:03, 05 Jun 2007.

You know, after some MATH tests (with which this game works whether you like it or not), the following creatures are overpowered in the Fortress faction (for their growth and cost):

- Defender and especially Shield Guard (if you do some calculations based on the cost, you'll find out that the Shield Guard is as good as the Defenders in (cost_of_ShieldGuard/cost_of_Defender) numbers. This means they get the Shield Wall ability FOR FREE.
- Bear Rider and especially Black Bear Rider (the Bear Rider is already overpowered for its cost (and growth), not to mention the Black one which receives the Paw Strike ability FOR FREE as above - and Paw Strike is one hell of an ability that triggers almost all the time)
- Thane and Warlord (they may not seem overpowered, but considering they deal double damage to the first target ALWAYS and have a special that goes through all the creatures in the chain with half damage... plus immune to lightning, plus teleport, plus speed 8 and init 11!)
- Fire Dragon and Magma Dragon... have you seen how much defense they have?!? Sure, the damage is low but the Hit Points are high... Not to mention they have Fire Breath, Elemental (Immune To Mind Control!), Immune to Fire AND Fire/Magma Shield.

The following creatures are 'normal':
- Rune Priest/Patriarch
- Skirmisher

and the following are underpowered:
- Brawler/Berserker (trust me, I did my calculations with the cost so even in large numbers they're still underpowered)
- Spearwielder (because it has only 2 shots)

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted June 05, 2007 03:24 PM


@ Elvin:

Well, he too did not know what to expect since
this was the first time one of us picked dwarves
Obviously he shall not repeat the same mistake
But, i keep thinking that he might be right about
overpowered thing. Because, rune of charge is easy
to get, cheap to use, deadly for the enemy.
I mean, my berserkers reached poor nightmares in their
first move and slaughtered 80% of the stack! But much
much more important was the fact that my 19 magmas
reached his cerberus and mistresses behind them and
fried them to dust!
And that artifact that makes his army has 20% less ini
is also obtaniable in long games. Who knows what would
this same fight look like if he got to play with nightmares
and cerberus before me, or if he used meteor shower with
pit lords. Although i think that inferno is little weak
in general, but who knows...

@ Doomforge:

I don't really think they are that bad without runes. Their
heroes get nice stats, there are plenty of more than useful
perks and they have several fantastic units so i think dwarves
might even prevail without not only extensive usage of runes but using them at all

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted June 05, 2007 03:26 PM

The artifact that reduces his initiative 20% is overpowered and greatly effected the outcome of your match.
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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted June 05, 2007 03:34 PM


@ Istari:

True, but don't forget that it is the only artifact
that reduces enemy initiative, while there are many
that affect your own. Ring of celerity, speed , than
several other that improve ini of certain type of units
but again there is only this one arty that reduces it.
But like i said, who knows what would that same battle
look like under some different surcomstances.
Plus i wonder how good would dwarves do against haven,
sylvan and dungeon

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 05, 2007 03:37 PM

Against haven - depends, I think haven is such a powerhouse that it can be beaten only by rushers.
Against sylvan, I'd say good.
Against dungeon, well, they will most likely rush and map control you away, so I think dungeon has the upper hand.

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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted June 05, 2007 03:39 PM

Quote:


What's eMpik?

Here's how I understand refresh rune.

Example 1 you use charge on your bear riders.  On hero's turn you use refresh rune selecting the bear riders.  On bears turn refresh rune is available again.

Exmaple 2 you use rune of ethereal on your bears and wait with them.  Then you use rune of charge.  On your hero's turn you use refresh rune selecting the bears.  In this case, one of the runes will be refreshed, but it's 50-50 whether it is charge or ethereal.  On your bears next turn you will see which one was refreshed because you will be able to use it.

Clear?


eMpik is a shop. With very nooby versions of Heroes. They don't work on-line (even specialists from Cd-Projekt- distributor, couldn't help me )and refresh rune doesn't work at all. I tried to use it, as you said...
Nothing just happened...
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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted June 05, 2007 03:42 PM

Quote:
- Fire Dragon and Magma Dragon... have you seen how much defense they have?!? Sure, the damage is low but the Hit Points are high... Not to mention they have Fire Breath, Elemental (Immune To Mind Control!), Immune to Fire AND Fire/Magma Shield.

Spearwielder (because it has only 2 shots)


What about the skirmisher?

Also, the Firedragons are reisistant to ressurection which is annoying.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 05, 2007 03:45 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 15:46, 05 Jun 2007.

Quote:
and refresh rune doesn't work at all. I tried to use it, as you said...
Nothing just happened...
Try this: Use Rune of Berserking (or whatever was named that which gives you two attacks), attack with the creature AND perform the second strike. On the next creature's turn, it will say 'already used' on this rune, so you cannot use it again. BUT, if you use Refresh Rune with the hero on this creature, it will be able to use it (the Berserking rune) again.

Quote:
What about the skirmisher?

The skirmisher is in the 'normal' section because it's not underpowered nor overpowered.

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted June 05, 2007 04:18 PM

Overpowered, Hmm... They are tough, defence is high, But nothing else is great about their stats - They got a lovely skill tree, where you can make a destroyer of a hero or a buff master ... Runes give them the power the stats doesn't - They overpowered if played well...

Zombielord, i can you see you are a zombie, your brain not good for thinking Berzerker = A mighty mother****er ! They are many, high att, fast and add up ligt buffs, luck, rune and speciel ability and you got this games best killing machine. True if they are killed before they act, they suck - But... Not going to happen...
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 05, 2007 04:23 PM

they are something like cerberi. THey live to deliver a powerful first strike. After that they are dead.

That has its uses.

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Lednah
Lednah


Hired Hero
posted June 05, 2007 05:27 PM

I noticed the warlords are always do about 2.5 times more damage then predicted (without a lucky hit). For example the pointer says "2-3 killed" but the actuall kils are 7-8. What is the reason for this difference?
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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted June 05, 2007 06:18 PM

The reason is


stormstrike:

Storm Strike
Besides usual damage, this creature strikes the target with lightning (non-magical damage), which then hits another
enemy creature if one is standing near the target, continuing on in this way until the chain is broken. The lighting’s
force is equal to that of the attack.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted June 05, 2007 08:36 PM

Broken staff, normally inferno owns fortress with their 1st strike(nightmares atacks thanes, cerberi something else), gating(rest of the stacks, succubi are shielded of course so they gate too) and sky high attack.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 05, 2007 11:40 PM

So you has staff of the netherworld and were lucky enough to have swift mind. Why are we even arguing it?

In any case maths are but a small part of the game. Overpowered you say? Brawlers and skirmishers aren't really good and have you considered what you need to pay for the thanes and priests? The thanes are obtainable on week 3 at best and the priests don't come in play until week 4-5. If you build dragons you'll get the thanes even later. And until then it is not advised to use brawlers because they are ineffective unless upgraded but also very vulnerable.
And what of building a mage guild? And rune guild? The dwarves need both when they can't even ensure they'll build their dwellings in time. They can't even depend on ignite because it is a gamble that may or not help. If they go for rune guild only you won't have the money but also restrict yourself to a lesser mage guild.
Only by the time they have built everything do they get an advantage but getting there isn't as easy if the opponent prepares before them. And they will almost never get logistics. They cannot deal good damage and their magic is ineffective in the beginning plus they can only depend on shieldguards, spearwielders and blackbear riders initially.

The real imbalance is in the guard post really, not the rest. Remember, might or magic alone can deal with them outside of town under normal cicumstances.
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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted June 06, 2007 09:24 AM


@Elvin:

You are probably right. Like i said, i don't have enough exp
with fortress. But the fact is that in this particular game,
i built priests dwelling pretty fast (maybe even in week 2, but
not 100% sure) and i somehow managed to get everything important
built by the end of week 4. Although, don't forget it was the Key
to victory map which has mines very close to castle and fair
amount of random piles of resources available. But all in all, i
see your point. You just think it's the path to developing dwarves
to their full potential that makes them not beeing overpowered, but
if you succeed - enemy has no chance

Did anybody have a game Fortress vs Haven (or Sylvan or Dungeon) that
he would be willing to describe here?

Later guys

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 06, 2007 09:48 AM

That should be an interesting match Haven can gather a good number of paladins backed up by marksmen and imperial griffins, I wonder how they could deal with a pure might faction as I never got to test it with a human player. And it's not just the might part but bringing down a more powerful stack than them. Runes would sure be a necessity in this case both the protective and offensive ones.
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