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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered
Thread: Runes & Steel - dwarven road to being overpowered This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted June 29, 2008 08:11 AM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 08:14, 29 Jun 2008.

@Elvin
No one told me, i tried it myself.

I admit, it was a very close victory.

You need magic againts dwarf, any magic is ok, though i try summoning once, and suffer very terrible lose.

I forgot something, as i've said in previous page, dark magic is very good for creeping (dwarf), and very good againts orc.

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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted June 29, 2008 09:45 AM

I've beaten dwarf in castle with orc. They've got pathetic damage. You have rage and good defense that makes you almost untouchable. Add to this your high attack. Orcs shouldn't loose.
Not destruction wins in dungeon's case, but the constant pressure they put to the dwarf army. High initiative army with good attack sustained by destruction.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 29, 2008 09:52 AM

I've had some games with stronghold vs fortress and they can be very challenging lategame, of course you must make sure to have the right shatters.
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WarLore
WarLore


Famous Hero
servant of urgash
posted June 29, 2008 10:56 AM

Quote:
Quote:


(also it's difficult to find utility for that harppon strike) .  


I like to drag attackers into the moat with it during a siege, very handy if they decide to stand right in front of it waiting until the walls go down

so do i. it is totally ownage
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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted June 29, 2008 11:08 AM

That's fun and solid example of harpoon strike tactical usage, but do you consider dragging a creature into a moat ownage?

I like to drag creatures into Firewalls or from blocked Rune Patriarch so he can shoot.


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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted June 29, 2008 12:20 PM

Harpoon strike use depend on many situation.

Basically you want to use harpooner if you don't have access to soldier luck, however with soldier luck, i choose skirmisher, especially againts faction with low hp growth (sometimes chart is useful), still i often go with harpooner.

Quote:
I've beaten dwarf in castle with orc. They've got pathetic damage. You have rage and good defense that makes you almost untouchable. Add to this your high attack. Orcs shouldn't loose.
Not destruction wins in dungeon's case, but the constant pressure they put to the dwarf army. High initiative army with good attack sustained by destruction.


Your dwarf enemy build determine his victory againts orc.

I use the morale combo+retribution and its dmg isn't suck, quite high, especially with rune of beserking, and orc dmg can be nullified.

Your army won't do much dmg, even of you have high atk, the greatest asset of dungeon is its destructive and artifact merchants.

I dunno if you fight a dwarf rusher or another thing. I always laugh at warlock army, unless its dmg is boosted with elemental chains. Still, without very very strong spellpower, your creature will be massacred easily.


Quote:
I've had some games with stronghold vs fortress and they can be very challenging lategame, of course you must make sure to have the right shatters


That's why i said that it's very close victory. Orc and dwarf almost equal in late game under normal circumtances, however a little luck in dwarven player will change anything, it's not the lucky strike, it's something like getting dark magic, usually orc doesn't anticipate this and take the wrong shatter, also, how good your runes againts the orc determine this. But in 2 town, you usually have the most needed runes againts orc. The best skill in light magic againts orc is divine vengeance, so i choose dark over light.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 29, 2008 12:24 PM

Incorrect, you always except that the opponent will have it. If you play dragon hill or master of disguise for instance it's almost set in stone. You just have to know the maps you play and their spell availability.
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted June 29, 2008 12:33 PM

Yeah, but if you set a rule to random the map? I usually use that rule with my friends, we never like a map that is too familiar to one of us, if only the RMG is good, we will always use that feature.

But your insight is true for most player.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 29, 2008 12:51 PM

I think random does not offer any chances to learn spells other than native except maybe a utopia. There I'll simply go for shatter light.
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted June 29, 2008 05:06 PM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 17:30, 29 Jun 2008.

That's why i said if the dwarf is lucky. Dark is 2% for dwarf.

About the spell, don't be mistaken, by random i mean it's not using RMG, we just randomize the existing map, we rarely create maps via RMG, in some maps, the chance to get dark spells for dwarf is high.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 29, 2008 06:45 PM

What do you mean randomize map?
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted June 30, 2008 10:04 AM

Hey, it's simple just randomize the map (not with in game feature).

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 05, 2008 12:10 AM

I had an online game with dwarves today, the first in a long time now. I was lucky enough to get Ingvar and after improving my defense I got enlightenment from a hut, destructive, basic attack->frenzy and luck that I eventually got to expert.

Except the silly shieldguards with vitality and battle frenzy what was interesting was how much destructive helped me in creeping. Since I had Inga as a secondary she taught me lightning bolt when she returned from town to bring fresh troops which I had not considered until now. The dwarves can work just fine with a lvl 2 destructive and shieldguards, the matter is that there are already many things to build on week 1 and you have to keep moving so you don't fall too much behind in creeping.

The damage was not spectacular but then again it didn't have to. Had I gotten icebolt things would have been a lot better but anyway. I remembered that for all their weakness in creeping they can tackle ranged units easier than most ie lots of master hunters that can barely scratch your armor. Fire off a few eldritch arrows/lightning bolts and they are weak enough for the stocky guys to proceed and merrily slaughter them.

Another thing to consider is how effective the combination of defense, enlightenment and power of endurance is I could simply not believe how much damage they can absorb. Here is a replay.

Another thing I could hardly believe my eyes was when the enemy demonlord cast frenzy on my 183 shieldguards which then hit my battleragers and killed...4(!) of them Note that he had also cast weakness and suffering on me but 183 shieldguards with Ingvar's bonus..? Was lvl 17 btw.

In the evening I thought I'd test the dwarves on School of Sorcery and wow were they good in the beggining. Note that you get 5 water/7 air elemental joiners, +2 power, +1 knowledge and mage guild starts at lvl 3 which is immensely helpful for every faction but it serves to illustrate that they just need the correct circumstances for their strength to show. Namely a small power boost and an early destructive spell.

I used to believe that taking 2 magic schools with them is a waste but I have long since changed my mind, the combination of light and destructive is amazing. It's easy to start leveling destructive and pick up light later when it will be more effective. A pure destructive build is also viable, you can always aim for empathy if you don't get sorcery. Regardless, fire spells wth ignite are powerful and they have the means to double it with priests or flamelords. Not that deep freeze with rune combinations can't cause enough pain

Finally I am too beginning to fear rune of charge. There is already luck and certain runes that make a first attack painful but now it's also easy to get retribution that takes into consideration bonus above 5 morale. The first attack can be overwhelming..
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2008 07:41 AM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 10:06, 05 Jul 2008.

Completely agree with you.

Yup, power of endurance is a lot better than preparation, i dunno, maybe my dwarf is not the defensive type, using preparation means to stall and hold your ground, that's why i always choose power of endurance, the main reason is to easy my creeping.

Yeah, ingvar is imba, if i'm not mistaken, 20 archangels only kill 3 if not 5 shieldguards with lv 10 ingvar and exp defense + power of endurance. You're very lucky indeed, getting ingvar from random

Yeah, i've told you, retribution and leadership is the only cheap way to boost your creature dmg, it's boost is insane if you also have runic attunement, normaly it's 5 or 6 morale = 50 or 60% more dmg, with arties, 80% or more bonus dmg is possible. Add your runes, and only a few faction can defeat you in late.

Imo inferno is the hardest opponent, stronghold is close/equal, still i usualy have easy time againts stronghold.

Haha, i told you, rune of charge and rune of beserking is too imba for tier 1 runes

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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted July 05, 2008 08:23 AM
Edited by samiekl at 08:24, 05 Jul 2008.

Light and destruction combination is very good, dunno why people don't take it more often. I played as dungeon once vs this combination and it was a close one. Keep in mind that i crept almost twice as much and luckily i was inspired to pick up attack and equip some luck artifacts, otherwise dwarf would've laughed at my stalker-abusing.

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2008 10:01 AM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 10:04, 05 Jul 2008.

There are not enough slots to take the other core skills.

Still, the combination depends on many things too.

Light+destructive is good. But, in general, it need sorcery.

That leave you only two more slot, while there are four core good skills too, enlightment, leadership, attack and defence, and probably luck too (but i rarely take luck, i usualy use luck bonus from arties).

If you take light+dest, in my version, you must take not only sorcery, but you must take enlightment too, so, there is 1 slot more.

Attack and leadership are like a pact couple, imo their synergy is very very effective for Fortress, both must be taken, or don't take both of them.

However, if i must take either attack or leadership, 100% i prefer leadership, since attack is worthless without retribution, but that runic attunement + expt leadership gives you 5 morale (without arties and another booster), with this, slow fortres's creatures can act far more often. Not only that, the Divine guidance is very useful too.

Defense is a must againts fast faction, fortress's creatures rarely act more than any other factions, and they usually become the victim of first strike, so defense is almost an absoulte perk for fortress. Not only that, it has power of endurance which realy help in creeping, and also in later fight if you don't have light magic.

So it's a very hard choice.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 05, 2008 10:49 AM

shame warlock's luck needs so many stupid pre requisites now. It used to be the top choice in vanilla H5 for warlocks.

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2008 01:29 PM

Yup, most people said it's because dark ritual is a waste of lv, but imo magic resistance is the same.

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted July 07, 2008 11:53 AM

7 not so usefull skill points to get a chance at warlocks luck ... it's hardly worth the investment... better get sorcery and enlightenment, at least it helps in creeping too

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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted July 07, 2008 12:42 PM

Actually luck is pretty useful, the perks are a total waste though. And the randomness (warlocks luck may not trigger exactly when you need it most) makes it not worthy

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