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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: WCL: We want to fight you!
Thread: WCL: We want to fight you! This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · «PREV / NEXT»
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 30, 2007 09:59 AM

Quote:
100% agree with you.
Should tell, that all players have shown a high class of game. I hope, that communication between our resources will not be lost because of unsuccessful comments.
I hope so too. I am sure "Forrest" is just an exception, and the others are fine

If there is a free spot in the next tournament, I will change my mind and participate (If SAG wants me to be in that is!).
Maybe next tourney we play YOUR rules, but OUR tournament and game setup style? So exactly the other way around than this time?

And I would love to see at least 1 game allied 2vs2. I may even install TE version AND Hamachi to get such a game going
____________
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Forrest
Forrest

Tavern Dweller
posted July 30, 2007 11:22 AM

Quote:
I hope so too.


Sorry
I was wrong.
Very glad that all made off in a friendly atmosphere.

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Devangle1984
Devangle1984


Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
posted July 30, 2007 11:58 AM

I agree with stinger, hope our comunication does not disrupt  with the end of this tournement. I would love to play the others, if opportunity gives way. Too bad heroes by is not in english but hey, im sure we will have future exciting tournements as this.

HC will always be here as a meeting point for us. Hope there will be another tournement as this soming at us shartly as dirk suggested

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted July 30, 2007 12:48 PM
Edited by liophy at 12:55, 30 Jul 2007.

As SAG said - everyone has his own conclusion. Mine is the following.

By now Heroes.by has larger group of top players. If we talk for a single one - its not nown if marreti or paladin is better, but the facts are,that from 5 games 4 went to heroes.by. And if its true that Bayzet beat Dead2002 5-1 its even more convincing.

So - this mean, that they have better way to teach themselfs. Probably the real live exchange of knowledge is better. Thats from the tourneys they do in internet cafes. Or its the money, that gives real motive to improve? I dont know, they hate to explain whats the reason to have so many top players.

The positive thing for WCL, and for everyone, is the way this games were documented. The saves talks a lot, but probably its good to attach videos of the most decisive battles.

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Sir_Four
Sir_Four

Tavern Dweller
HoMM 3.5 Dev. Group
posted July 30, 2007 01:08 PM
Edited by Sir_Four at 13:28, 30 Jul 2007.

Quote:
And I would love to see at least 1 game allied 2vs2.

That's very seldom thing for us. Exclusive

Quote:
I may even install TE version AND Hamachi to get such a game going

TE version is interesting by itself. Just try.
____________
Sir Four
HoMM 3.5 WoG & TE Development Groups

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 30, 2007 04:37 PM

So you don't like teamplay in heroes.by league?

I have to say I play 80% team games and 20% 1vs1 games nowadays. It is just more fun. And players can learn a lot by watching the ally's moves. This is how many new players became pretty good.

But well....if it won't happen, the world would still spin around..
____________
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Sir_Four
Sir_Four

Tavern Dweller
HoMM 3.5 Dev. Group
posted July 30, 2007 05:38 PM

Quote:
So you don't like teamplay in heroes.by league?

Less than 1% games

Quote:
I have to say I play 80% team games and 20% 1vs1 games nowadays. It is just...

1 vs 1 games take much less time and you can improve your skill faster in games whith no alliances and AI-players. If you need to learn something new - it's better to view 1-1 game of top players (or saves of such game after each turn)
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Sir Four
HoMM 3.5 WoG & TE Development Groups

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Sir_Four
Sir_Four

Tavern Dweller
HoMM 3.5 Dev. Group
posted July 30, 2007 05:57 PM

But the most important in skill improvement is to read top player games reports. There are always many reports in our heroes.by forum (in russian of course =)) where players describe game situations through way from 111 to ff. It's VERY usefull.
____________
Sir Four
HoMM 3.5 WoG & TE Development Groups

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Devangle1984
Devangle1984


Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
posted July 30, 2007 06:05 PM

Well tats too bad that everything is in russian, maybe its time that the site has an english translation option too, will be more interactive to a wider variety of players that way, unless heroes by, prefer to keep to their own ways and is comfortable with whats going on now.

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Sir_Four
Sir_Four

Tavern Dweller
HoMM 3.5 Dev. Group
posted July 30, 2007 06:29 PM

Not all good players can speak english well. May be some of this forum users or heroes.by forum users who speak english and russian good enough could post here translations of the most interesting games reports from time to time. We'll see.
____________
Sir Four
HoMM 3.5 WoG & TE Development Groups

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Devangle1984
Devangle1984


Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
posted July 30, 2007 06:42 PM

true, but iam sure with help of sag we can get english translation to ur main site itself, i think its very good to play different players with different veiws of gameplay

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Sir_Four
Sir_Four

Tavern Dweller
HoMM 3.5 Dev. Group
posted July 30, 2007 06:47 PM

And first of all I suppose it'll be good practise for your own top players to post their games reports in special sub-forum.

P.S. Our forum reports isn't any kind of "top secret". You just need find a person or several who can translate it.
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Sir Four
HoMM 3.5 WoG & TE Development Groups

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Sir_Four
Sir_Four

Tavern Dweller
HoMM 3.5 Dev. Group
posted July 30, 2007 06:51 PM

Quote:
we can get english translation to ur main site itself

Our SITE contain much less info than our FORUM. But it's near to impossible to translate all forum info. So I think it's unreal.
____________
Sir Four
HoMM 3.5 WoG & TE Development Groups

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Devangle1984
Devangle1984


Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
posted July 30, 2007 06:54 PM

oh yes very true, i agree on the forum translation bit, i presume that there could be a part of the forum open to english audience maybe, and yes you are right we should have a walkthrough from players from this end to share their experiece, but hc itself is vast and has alot of stretegies and things as such.

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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted July 30, 2007 08:38 PM

Quote:
And if its true that Bayzet beat Dead2002 5-1 its even more convincing.


Bayzet defeated Dead2002 1:0 making TOTAL score WCL - Heroes Online Training Center 1:5

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_XSI_
_XSI_

Tavern Dweller
posted July 31, 2007 12:32 AM
Edited by _XSI_ at 10:31, 31 Jul 2007.

WCL/Heroes.By?Heroes Community

Hi, if help needed and you decide to change some things in russian/english, i gues i could help a bit
If some HC/WCl members need some translation from russian, maybe i could do that But not all forum translation of course just some topics or most interesting comments or games.

Smthg about tourney and comment to heroes.by forum posts and heroes community forum posts about our player and tourney.

To be honest, i didnt learn something from game saves, because all things i saw, where just very well made, but nothing new for me, so i think, nothing special for other WCl team members as well.
About a quote: WCL top players need to improve dnt find very true, because i believe our knowledge of the game is same as yours and its almost impossible to create new strategy.
As i saw in games saves speed is your favorite strategy
so is my and black knight and deads0202 and devangele and i gues marreti's as well. Interesting thing in all game saves:
Paladin taking vyvers hive week 1 day 3-4 vs dead, bayazet conservatory 20x5 week 2 day 2 with tower vs black knight. Thats probably all interesting cause didnt do that so early with tower or fortress, but nothing special, all of us got some interesting moves during all those years of play.
Actually if you could teach me something i dont know, i would appreciate that a lot
What i think about heroes.by games? : YOU are very good, you got the moves, you got the knowledge, planning and strategies, but you god d*mn lucky as well i can bet 4 money, 3/5 of games was not only mastercraft but luck as well, 1 thing different and would be no 5-1.
I saw the game saves, i know what im talking about.

Together with devangele, i would be happy to play any of you, because i like to play with top players.

TE version is very nice in my opinion and i wouldnt mind to play it, even oposite i would like to play it instead of SOD (my personal point of view )

So you find me in GS or Hamachi, i will gladly accept offer to play, as always, rules is thing to discuss is it our or your rules, i dnt care very much, can adopt to any so fell free to contact me.

And the last word about tournament, very nice idea, very nice tournament and especially good players, respect to all of you.
Didnt like tournament sistem so ;(
every 1 play's game with every 1 would be more reliable and more interesting i gues, because: more fair statics, more different players games, more chances to express yourself, show what you got  and more fun  

Thx for you time
GOOD LUCK
_XSI_

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Balamut
Balamut


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2007 11:04 AM
Edited by Balamut at 11:29, 31 Jul 2007.

Quote:
To be honest, i didnt learn something from game saves, because all things i saw, where just very well made, but nothing new for me, so i think, nothing special for other WCl team members as well.
I used to say that there is an edge in game technik . But game playing consists not only from fighting neutrals. If you have no troubles in reading our forum - you can find what CmapuK posted about level of game playing
Quote:
About a quote: WCL top players need to improve dnt find very true, because i believe our knowledge of the game is same as yours and its almost impossible to create new strategy.
Your knowledge of game is the same, that;s right. But i think we have advantage in tournaments experience. And i think it's important advantage, though it can be quickly neutralized
Quote:
As i saw in games saves speed is your favorite strategy
so is my and black knight and deads0202 and devangele and i gues marreti's as well.
I am still looking at saves. If your favorite strategy is speed why Maretti took for main Jabarcas, while he had Moner with pathfinding gived on second level? And our players are agreed that Maretti's resp was little better, than Stinger's . Devangel in his game have two ways: quick breaking into the center or staying home for a while. Though DC_Vasya game was the shock to our top players as well .
Quote:
Interesting thing in all game saves:
Paladin taking vyvers hive week 1 day 3-4 vs dead, bayazet conservatory 20x5 week 2 day 2 with tower vs black knight. Thats probably all interesting cause didnt do that so early with tower or fortress, but nothing special, all of us got some interesting moves during all those years of play.
That's else one difference - we have a bit more aggressive play-style. And it was born in a lot of tournaments with single- or maximum double-elimination system.
Quote:
Actually if you could teach me something i dont know, i would appreciate that a lot
I don't think our players could teach you something new in fighting neutrals. But I am sure, that if you play with us or take part in our tournaments - your game style would change

Quote:
And the last word about tournament, very nice idea, very nice tournament and especially good players, respect to all of you.
Didnt like tournament sistem so ;(
every 1 play's game with every 1 would be more reliable and more interesting i gues, because: more fair statics, more different players games, more chances to express yourself, show what you got  and more fun

Participating in tournaments is quite different from organizing them I organized or took part in organizing more than ten tournaments. Long one have lots of question to be resolved. And i don't think we can make one with everyone-to-everyone games in nearest couple of months.

P.S. If my post looks to you as gimn of tournaments - you are right
Tournaments are the top of playing heroes.

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Balamut
Balamut


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2007 11:24 AM

Quote:
So - this mean, that they have better way to teach themselfs. Probably the real live exchange of knowledge is better. Thats from the tourneys they do in internet cafes. Or its the money, that gives real motive to improve? I dont know, they hate to explain whats the reason to have so many top players.

One of main feature in our site is ... bad reporting system
When we were creating site - there weren't any web-programmers among us. So we went such way: players who played a game post report about it directly in forum. Than i move data from there posts into database, calculate rating tables and renew site pages. Advantage of this inconvenient system is that when player posts report in forum he usually  write about game he just played. He describes it, write what he thinks about his own game playing and opponents game playing too. It is very interesting to read such reports and it's very useful to novices and information spreads with quite big speed. And of course it's very useful for analyzing your own games. Cause others are free to post what they think about your game.
Quote:
The positive thing for WCL, and for everyone, is the way this games were documented. The saves talks a lot, but probably its good to attach videos of the most decisive battles.

Videos of main battles is my dream too . I work in this direction, but my attempts give no result for now.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 31, 2007 12:53 PM
Edited by angelito at 12:54, 31 Jul 2007.

Quote:
I am still looking at saves. If your favorite strategy is speed why Maretti took for main Jabarcas, while he had Moner with pathfinding gived on second level?
That's easy to explain:

1. Monere has lower chance of getting earth magic and/or air magic due to the fact he is able to learn all 4 magic schools, while Jarbakas can't learn water, therefor he will learn earth /air much easier. His bad luck was, Jarbakas got fire magic offered as first magic skill on level 4, while Shakti (Stinger) on the other hand got earth magic offered at first.

2. Jabarkas (and barbarians in general) levels up in attack skill more often than Monere (or any other Planeswalker) does.

3. Barbarians get the better skills offered mostly. Planeswalkers have high chance for skills like Learning etc...


As I said before, Shakti (Stinger) would have had a much harder time if he didn't had that luck getting earth offered pretty soon and being able to cast mass slow on breaking guards (Nagaqueens, Ghostdragons). And the speed arties were a help in the dragon fly hive fights also, coz without, dragflies all would have had their turn first.


But anyhow....this is how random maps work....sometimes luck is on YOUR side, while the next time it is on opponent's side...
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 31, 2007 01:22 PM

There was a little discussion about this tournament in a different thread (WCL-thread), where it doesn't belong. Therefor I will copy all the posts and put them here in this thread, and finally delete these posts in the WCL thread to keep on topic discussion there.


CmapuK
Quote:
Hello

My name is CmapuK, I'm from Russia. I'm one of the players of Heroes.by, with which were a match not long ago.

I think we shown very good level of heroes playing (but sorry for my mediocre Enlish ) So, may be you will be more at interest in Tournament Edition.

And becides of playing (more 200 games on TE, and unknown numbers on SoD ), I'm the organizator of TE tournaments on Heroes.by.

I can see, that many questions about usability of some TE features here are just because you imagine that features on you rules. I can say, that we playing 2 variants of rules (2sm4d(3),2sm4d(2) 2sm4d OR 8mm6)

I can say, than many good players (and also that were playing in the match), count our rules, rather balanced, espesially 8mm6. I can say, that Jebus is interesting template, but it have some minuses (and our templates have them too) Take it easy please, we and you both have got used our rules

So, how can you use TE? You choose options that needed on Jebus or Balance, save them into .ini and .dat files, and just load them before the game (or do nothing if you always play 1 template) Some options a so, that many players at our site (an me too ) has sceptical opinion about their influence on balance in game. In fact, 5-10 games on TE (or even 1-2) - and you fogot, how could you play buggy SoD

The main thing is an interface - it's really great, and gives an economy of a lot of time, which you can use on more activity in game.

What can I offer to you:

- we can create a topic on forum.heroes.by, you can ask questions about TE, and we will answer (players who knows English). This topic is good, but only some entusiasts from heroes.by will visit it often
- Every season we begin a TE Heroes.by Cup, where our players fight for the name of the Winner of the Cup. May be some of your best players want to recoup in the Autumn Cup?
- There is a elite tournament on TE 8mm6 only for 10 strongest players (the name of tournament is "RealMen", or "Big 10" ). All your opponents from match plays there (and me too ) It's a pity, but in it there is no free registration, but anyone can take part in selection tournament for 3 tickets into the next tournament. The registration of selection longs for 19.08, and there are some very expierenced and good players in it too.

So you have an opportunity to recoup, to taste TE, and to get support from expirienced TE players.

If you are interested in some of that, please post here. If it will be 5-6 people, who will ask questions or take part in tournaments, we will create a topic on forum.heroes.by for more of our players to help you.

Best regards!


Angelito
Quote:
This sounds pretty interesting

One suggestions about your "qualifying" tournament to the Big 10 I got:
Due to the fact most of WCL (or LRH, ToH) players don't speak russian very well and would do hard to understand anything on your website (I tried but failed ), wouldn't it be possible to make something like a TE qualifying tournament on WCL, where the best 2(3) players will automatically participate in YOUR Big 10 tournament?
As you could see in this small tournament we just had with heroes.by players, WCL players have good skills also (and a handfull of very good players didn't even participate). So you could be sure, 2 or 3 very good players would qualify for your big tourney.


CmapuK
Quote:
The thing is the Big 10 is new tournament, and that players who were't invited in it will be playing in very hard selective tournament with 3 tickets only. And 2-3 tickets from here will seems it to be too easy entrances into Big 10.

Becides this, TE is new thing for you. And will be testing slowly So, if you will be practice with people already played TE, you knowledge about version will grows much faster, what is good.

And another one thing is we played you version and your rules, and won 5-1, so to the most players winning the match seemed easy And my invitation gives you opportunity to play at our version and rules, and to show you best gaming level for reabilitation or even winning So, I suppose, you have ambitions.

If there will be any questions, I can make topic, give you links or even register you on heroes.by. The button "post reply" is just like button at this site, and readable

Waiting for more of your opinions.


Sir_Four
Quote:
Quote:
My name is CmapuK, I'm from Russia.

Just to make clear something =)

He wrote his russian nik with english letters which the most similar to russian ones. That transcription is't [Kmapak] but is [Starik] that mean "oldman" =)

Some kind of russian style you know =)


Angelito
Quote:
Quote:
And another one thing is we played you version and your rules, and won 5-1, so to the most players winning the match seemed easy
As already stated, 1 random game between 2 players wont tell too much. As far as I have heard, Devangel has played Vasya (or Paladin) a few times after he lost this one tourney game...and he won them ALL...
So we really should play a tournament style like: best of 3...each player of the teams plays all others of other team. That way we could have a better view how strong the players are...


Balamut
Quote:
Quote:
As already stated, 1 random game between 2 players wont tell too much.

Exactly! So how could CmapuK think that your players are equal to our big ten?
Quote:
As far as I have heard, Devangel has played Vasya (or Paladin) a few times after he lost this one tourney game...and he won them ALL...

As for me, difference between good and "top" player is seen exactly in tournaments. When you are playing tournament game it requires much more of you than in ordinary game for fun. Tournaments game are psychologicaly harder. For example, I have better statistics in my games with Paladin and Stinger . But i don't show so good results in tournaments. CmapuK knows me personaly, he knows my results in other games, not just with Paladin and Stinger. So i am not in big ten .

I want to say, that your players, who took part in these matches are good players, no questions. But are they top-players in our terminology? I can't say it now. The games should be played to clear that question, and if it is question about places in "big ten" tournament, than it should be TE games.

Quote:
So we really should play a tournament style like: best of 3...each player of the teams plays all others of other team. That way we could have a better view how strong the players are...

I am interested in different tournaments even if i am just organizator. And i think majority of our site members want to see such  matches at least one time for a season (three months). But i don't think that it would be SOD games. It is very inconveniently to play on old game versions. Think of it, as if you have to play on Restoration of Erathia. Main aspects of game playing are the same, but SoD is later version and i don't meet people who use black-and-white TV sets after they can afford themselves to buy color one.


SwampLord
Quote:
Can I ask if there are any plans to "buff" some of the weaker Level 7s, such as the Ghost Dragon?



CmapuK
Quote:
Quote:
Can I ask if there are any plans to "buff" some of the weaker Level 7s, such as the Ghost Dragon?


If this would be needed.

At 2sm4d and 8mm6, and many fix-maps vampairlordes and skeletons can be great enouth to make no need (or for speed only need) in Ghost Dragons.

So it was no need before to change GD stats.

Quote:
So we really should play a tournament style like: best of 3...each player of the teams plays all others of other team.


You will try playing on your rules until you team won?

So, you say that:

1. Your templates are balanced
2. 5-1 doesn't matter anything, because it is random templates

So, you don't think your templates balanced enouth, to make 3-4 generations (from 6) where you players should be won as better players?


liophy
Quote:
Starik, so you dont thing that there was luck factor?

I am not a lawyer of Angelito, but i thing what he said is that the score do not represent the real strenght of the team.

Do you like football? Its like in football - to see who is the best team you play championship in 38 rounds. And if you participate in knock-out tourneys theres always chance for surprises. The champions title means more than the cup trofy.

So, 5-1 means you are very good and almost certainly better. But if you play 38 games, i am sure that the score will NOT be 32-6. It would be 20-18 and you will not speak how you are sooooooooo much better.


CmapuK
Quote:
Quote:
Starik, so you dont thing that there was luck factor?




I saw some saves from the games and can say, that your players are excellent players.

But I think that our players were better and 5-1 in match is can't be anything to say about of "wont tell too much" What did you expect to get to see that we were playing better? Utopias on 113?

I don't think that it can be 32-6. Will it be 20-18 or not - is quite hard question.

The one thing I want exactly to get is for you not to say "they just were lucky, and we playing better".

There was one statement from here:

Quote:
I dont find ppl who play mostly fixed maps and a few weak templates very scary. Im sure I would wipe them out on the best templates


In fact, we won. You can be good players, but we were stronger at your rules and we are good players too. If you have any respect to players, who can win you 5-1, you can try their rules and their templates.

If you don't have any respect, so you agree, that weak players can beat you 5-1

UPDATED: I really don't think we "soooo" better. And really don't think it will be always 5-1. I just want for you to test our rules without bias of it. And trying not to allow for you to say "that was only unluck"



So please continue discussion from here now
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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