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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 ... 126 127 128 129 130 ... 140 210 280 350 420 490 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 22, 2011 05:53 PM

Quote:
I'm not complaining, just pointing at the fact that people are. And actually we do know that the neutrals won't be too many. Elvin or Cepheus said something like that some time ago.


If they said so, then it's true. A pity... But still, the game is not complete until all of the expansions will be released as well. I think it's safe to assume that more creatures will come with the expansions.
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Wckey
Wckey


Famous Hero
posted January 22, 2011 06:03 PM


Quote:
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care less if there were no Editor in the game. So I don't feel any need to be thanking them for that. It's because of the Editor, like Xhane admitted, that there is no RMG in the game. If in the end, I won't buy the game, this will be the main reason why.

I picked up the wrong words up there. Is not that I believe we should all thank them because they made one thing, it's just that people criticises them because the game doesn't have everything they wanted and I don't think it's fair, since they are trying to make the best they can to satisfy the fans. Not saying that you should love the game neither that you can't hate it, but saying they want the fans to make their work and that's the reason for them to implement an extra in the game is a bit exagerating.
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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 22, 2011 06:12 PM
Edited by Nelgirith at 18:13, 22 Jan 2011.

Quote:
@Wckey
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care less if there were no Editor in the game. So I don't feel any need to be thanking them for that. It's because of the Editor, like Xhane admitted, that there is no RMG in the game. If in the end, I won't buy the game, this will be the main reason why.

/facepalm
I don't see how the map editor could be the cause of no RMG Ubisoft is using the map editor to create their own maps/campaigns. The one we'll get will just be a more user-friendly version of it, so it's not like they're wasting 5 monthes worth of work to make us an editor.

Also, tbh, RMG have always been utter fail through all HoMM since all the random maps have been unplayable or full of bugs.

What killed H5 in the end was the lack of player-made maps because Nival's map editor was a big joke they threw at our faces, so if H6's editor is like H4's one, there's some hope.

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 22, 2011 06:18 PM
Edited by kodial79 at 18:27, 22 Jan 2011.

Quote:

Quote:
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care less if there were no Editor in the game. So I don't feel any need to be thanking them for that. It's because of the Editor, like Xhane admitted, that there is no RMG in the game. If in the end, I won't buy the game, this will be the main reason why.

I picked up the wrong words up there. Is not that I believe we should all thank them because they made one thing, it's just that people criticises them because the game doesn't have everything they wanted and I don't think it's fair, since they are trying to make the best they can to satisfy the fans. Not saying that you should love the game neither that you can't hate it, but saying they want the fans to make their work and that's the reason for them to implement an extra in the game is a bit exagerating.


Yeah, and like I said, I'm sure Ubisoft doesn't see the Editor like that. As their tickets to call it an early day off, that is.

Well, I'm not complaining. Not about the creatures at least. So far from what I've seen, I'm happy with it. And I'm sure they will not let me down.

But the RMG is not in, and that's a fact. For me and for many others, the RMG was the only way to go once you beat the SP. In H3 and H5, after the campaign was over, I relied on the RMG to keep on playing for months if not years. No Editor can replace that.

To be honest, I don't care about what other users make. I only downloaded one mod, that one that unlocks all campaign heroes for custom maps in H5. I never downloaded any maps or anything else. RMG had me covered, all the maps I wanted, any size I wanted, whenever I wanted them.

So ofcouse I'm going to complain about that. If that is gonna make them understand that we need it, and hopefully they will include an RMG ASAP.

@Nelgirith
It's true!
Xhane Q&A at CoG, I quote:
"CoG - Will the game ship with a random map generator? If yes, what sort of options will you have
with it?

Xhane - Unfortunately no, because we are focusing on the Map Editor, which is much more powerful
and flexible than in Heroes V and we want it ready for the game release."

RMG did not make the cut, for the Editor. You may have not liked it, but I loved it. Take that away from me, and I have no game to play. I don't want your user maps anyway!
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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted January 22, 2011 06:25 PM
Edited by Jabanoss at 18:34, 22 Jan 2011.

I agree with kodial I want a RMG so bloody much. (Hmm I need to work more on my idea of how to make the RMG even better, so I can post it in the RMG thread...)

I however am glad to see the editor before the RMG. Sure I would like to have both in the initial release, but to me the Editor is something that takes longer time to fully master. So the sooner map makers can get their hands on it, the better imo.
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Kenishi
Kenishi


Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
posted January 22, 2011 07:07 PM

Quote:
Uhm nightmares that are painted unicorns with their horns cut off and stupid abilities taken from other creatures that already excist, or even worse, werewolves that are created out of wolf heads put on sentinel bodies?

Not my style sorry.


This is one aspect I was thinking more on the likes of Total Annihilation where the game dev gave tools for the community to develop their own units without the” repainting” but from screech.

Quote:
The modability of the game is nothing more than a bonus and should not be an aim of the developers at all. The actual game is what's important. Personally I couldn't care less about most of the mods and yes, putting the limbs of one creature over the torso of another creature or changing a few colours seems kinda lame most of the time. That's just my own point of view and if someone gets offended - too bad for him, I'm not supposed to like everything I see. Nobody is.



True enough but maybe one of the game that did this has gained some pretty outstanding praises so it wouldn’t hurt to be taken in consideration
Quote:
The point is that Ubisoft can't be tasking us with the work they should be doing themselves


Missing the point i was trying to make, they are not tasking use they give us the tools and we (community) have the ability to use them or not, because they are not obligated to give us more neutrals or less, they give us a game they see as  finished and complete, know for the sake of discussion there are no Nightmares, Nightterror learns a 3D modeling program and creates  the Nightmare of her dreams and because of the tools given by the dev she can easily import them give him stats make him a neutral or replace a unit in any given faction if she wants to play whit them (Thank you in advance Nightterror for letting me use your nick for my explanation )

Quote:
it's just that people criticises them because the game doesn't have everything they wanted and I don't think it's fair, since they are trying to make the best they can to satisfy the fans. Not saying that you should love the game neither that you can't hate it, but saying they want the fans to make their work and that's the reason for them to implement an extra in the game is a bit exagerating.


100% agreeing

Quote:
What killed H5 in the end was the lack of player-made maps because Nival's map editor was a big joke they threw at our faces, so if H6's editor is like H4's one, there's some hope.


Maybe I should have been more politically correct and referred to the H5 editor specifically instead of the level of modding it could be achieved.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 22, 2011 07:07 PM

Quote:
Xhane Q&A at CoG, I quote:
"CoG - Will the game ship with a random map generator? If yes, what sort of options will you have
with it?

Xhane - Unfortunately no, because we are focusing on the Map Editor, which is much more powerful
and flexible than in Heroes V and we want it ready for the game release."

RMG did not make the cut, for the Editor. You may have not liked it, but I loved it. Take that away from me, and I have no game to play. I don't want your user maps anyway!
You are talking nonsense. The RMG is basically a function of the Map Editor. There is no RMG without an editor. When they say that there will be no RMG, this is not because there will be an editor. It's because they won't enhance the editor enough to have a RMG among other things.
@Nelgirith, the only RMG which was utter failure was the one in Heroes V. Even the Heroes II RMG was better (yes, Heroes II had a RMG, but it was only accessible via the editor itself, not in-game). However, the Heroes III one was excellent. Yes - many maps were bugged, yes - many maps were not perfect. But more than enough were very good, sometimes even better than man-made maps and it took no more than a minute for the creation of a XL map with underground and 8 players even on the ancient computers back then. Today it takes seconds. What's so bad in that?

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 22, 2011 07:15 PM

Sorry Zenofex but I have to agree with Nelgirith.
The RMG from my point of wiew is a lost of time. Only on thing that it is good for was the Heroes II tipe were it made a base for the mapmaker to work on.
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We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 22, 2011 07:16 PM

H3's and H5's RMG's were built in the game. I'm not so sure but I think the Editor wasn't running in the back, when a map was being generated in game.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Xhane said so, that to focus on the Editor, they left the RMG out. I say that is no excuse.

Even if the Editor is needed to have an RMG, like you said then I can say: I rather have a crappy Editor with an RMG than a perfect Editor with no RMG. Me and I daresay the majority of the players, the casual ones will use the RMG and not the Editor.
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Zeki
Zeki


Supreme Hero
sup
posted January 22, 2011 07:22 PM

I have nearly never used RMG. when i completed the campaigns and the single scenarios there were always enough very good maps maken by others with map maker. I prefer them because their quality is nearly always higher than with the RMGs.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 22, 2011 07:29 PM

Quote:
I have nearly never used RMG. when i completed the campaigns and the single scenarios there were always enough very good maps maken by others with map maker. I prefer them because their quality is nearly always higher than with the RMGs.


Only a small percentage of the people who are going to buy the game, visits the forums and even fewer of them will download any maps. Granted, you people are the elite here but you're not the majority.

Back when I was playing Heroes III for example, early 2000, I didn't even know that HC existed. Why, I did not even have an internet connection. There are still many people who will buy the game even though they're not "hardcore" fans, enough to visit forums and fansites to learn more about it. And this is the majority of players that I'm talking about.

And not everybody has the skill or the patience to use the editor for more maps. RMG was the perfect solution. And editor is good too, I suppose, for the more demanding players. But for the casual ones, RMG was the only way to go.


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Zeki
Zeki


Supreme Hero
sup
posted January 22, 2011 07:37 PM
Edited by Zeki at 19:38, 22 Jan 2011.

Well,kodial, you're right, most people would just use RMG.

Just as idea, Ubisoft could make an own site where you could upload maps and than write that on the gameboxes, so more people would have the idea for looking for maps online?
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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 22, 2011 07:38 PM
Edited by Nelgirith at 19:39, 22 Jan 2011.

Quote:
@Nelgirith, the only RMG which was utter failure was the one in Heroes V. Even the Heroes II RMG was better (yes, Heroes II had a RMG, but it was only accessible via the editor itself, not in-game). However, the Heroes III one was excellent. Yes - many maps were bugged, yes - many maps were not perfect. But more than enough were very good, sometimes even better than man-made maps and it took no more than a minute for the creation of a XL map with underground and 8 players even on the ancient computers back then. Today it takes seconds. What's so bad in that?

I agree with you that the H3 RMG was quite performant, but taking the risk of playing a bugged map and discovering after 1 hour of game that you can't even reach your oppponent is frustrating - and it doesn't matter whether it took only 1 minute to generate the map or even 5.

If there has to be a RMG in Heroes 6, then I expect a perfect one and I won't settle for less. Unless it's a perfect one that guarantees us fully playable maps (and I'm not talking about perfect looking ones), then RMG will only be a useless gadget to please the masse. Sadly.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 22, 2011 07:42 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 19:45, 22 Jan 2011.

Quote:
Sorry Zenofex but I have to agree with Nelgirith.
The RMG from my point of wiew is a lost of time. Only on thing that it is good for was the Heroes II tipe were it made a base for the mapmaker to work on.
From my point of view a lost time is downloading some fan-made map from a random fan site and playing it for some time only to find out that it's worse than even the primitive RMG from Heroes V can create. I know that the community can make excellent map, but I also know that it can make a lot of junk too. And whatever the case is, the manually-made maps are learned to the last object after a few replays and this normally leads to standardized (read - boring) tactics. When the map is randomly created, you never know which is where and that is part of the challenge.
@kodial - making a good editor does not prevent making a RMG. What Xhane said is, I translate: "Yes, there won't be a RMG and if necessary, we can use the Map Editor as an excuse because at least some people will find it logical, even though it isn't. The truth which I'm not telling to you is that we'll release the RMG in a subsequent expansion pack and will ask you to pay for it and that's all." There.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 22, 2011 07:43 PM

@kodial79
You are talking 2000, many people have discovered the wonders of the internet since then H5 RMG and ubi maps sucked badly and that's why we did our best to promote good custom maps.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 22, 2011 07:52 PM
Edited by kodial79 at 19:54, 22 Jan 2011.

Quote:

@kodial - making a good editor does not prevent making a RMG. What Xhane said is, I translate: "Yes, there won't be a RMG and if necessary, we can use the Map Editor as an excuse because at least some people will find it logical, although it isn't. The truth which I'm telling you is that we'll release the RMG in a subsequent expansion pack and will ask you to pay for it." There.


Yeah, I know. On the contrary, a good editor should have an RMG built in. I don't know if Xhane meant what she said or there's more to read between the lines. I know though that they're focusing on the editor or so they say, which is something the majority of players will ultimately ignore and only a handful few will use it and most of them, unsuccessfully. I would have preffered them to focus on the RMG instead. That they don't, I consider it a bad move on their behalf.

@Elvin
Many people have discovered the internet, true, but how many have discovered HC?
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 22, 2011 08:06 PM

Quote:
From my point of view a lost time is downloading some fan-made map from a random fan site and playing it for some time only to find out that it's worse than even the primitive RMG from Heroes V can create. I know that the community can make excellent map, but I also know that it can make a lot of junk too. And whatever the case is, the manually-made maps are learned to the last object after a few replays and this normally leads to standardized (read - boring) tactics. When the map is randomly created, you never know which is where and that is part of the challenge.



Yes, downloading unknown maps is a bad Idea. But I think that the combination of random creatures and treasures, combined with a free map makes enough diferenc to replay the map several times.
This, on the other hand, did not work well in H-5. Maps in H III and H II werent that repetiv. I think this is a really important issue to focus on.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted January 22, 2011 08:13 PM

Not to sound like an apologist, but while I agree that the RMG is more or less fundamental, it takes an awful lot of resources and/or time to create a polished one for a 3D TBS like this, and the finished program really wouldn't have been worth the input if the game is still aiming for March.

Compare HoMM, with all its delicate and painful-to-balance variables and the problem of creating a fully-navigable map, to games like Civilization where all you need to generate is a different terrain map. Even for the 2D games the result isn't very pretty. Now multiply that difficulty due to the 3D.

So for the initial release you ideally get a strong focus on either the Editor or the RMG (H5 had no focus...), but you don't get both unless the devs, by some miracle, receive another few million dollars in budget and obtain the power to compress time
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Wckey
Wckey


Famous Hero
posted January 22, 2011 08:56 PM

Quote:
Many people have discovered the internet, true, but how many have discovered HC?  

Don't know about nowadays, but in the time of heroes 5 It was really easy to search on google Heroes 5 (or HoMM5 or something like that) and find Age of Heroes. To find HC is just one more step, and it's content is enough to make someone who likes the game interested on the site. Although I only registered some days ago, I was spying on you since long time ago  

And besides, most of the people like me only discovered H6 was being developed because of HC.

I know that was a rhetorical question, but sometimes I love to answer them too

But kodial is right. Not everyone can download custom maps.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 22, 2011 09:14 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I have nearly never used RMG. when i completed the campaigns and the single scenarios there were always enough very good maps maken by others with map maker. I prefer them because their quality is nearly always higher than with the RMGs.


Only a small percentage of the people who are going to buy the game, visits the forums and even fewer of them will download any maps. Granted, you people are the elite here but you're not the majority.

I actually don't think that is true. My dad (!) who played H3 for ages (something like 10 years ) was not exactly what you call a forum guy, but he pretty quickly picked up on the map downloading (and I didn't tell him, mind you, because that was before *I* even knew about that kind of stuff) and brought back hundreds of maps.

The H3 RMG was pretty pants imo. Sure, it could make a map that was playable, but all objects were just scattered randomly, and without any intelligent thought as to placing of guards and towns etc., I found it pretty pointless. But then, the whole concept of a RMG is pointless to me, because I don't *want* the maps to be random, I want them to be thought out.
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