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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 22, 2011 09:22 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 21:23, 22 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
Oh I know that. RMG is difficult to make. But then you have to wonder which one needs prioritizing. If the popularity and majority are taken into account then it is the RMG.
I really don't think that's the case. Certainly for other series it's a must, but Heroes is far, far more strongly dependent on human-generated content than thrown-together landscapes spat out by an AI.
I would say we, the consumers, could live without an RMG but not without an editor. I mean, if there is a poor editor you can't even correct the flaws in the random maps 
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 22, 2011 09:25 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:26, 22 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
The H3 RMG was pretty pants imo. Sure, it could make a map that was playable, but all objects were just scattered randomly, and without any intelligent thought as to placing of guards and towns etc., I found it pretty pointless.
My main complaint with the H3 RMG was the huge tracts of land that just got mountained up, although placing Haven on snow, Inferno on rough, Tower on swamp etc. was pretty unforgivable as well.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 22, 2011 09:26 PM |
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Quote:
I would say we, the consumers, could live without an RMG but not without an editor. I mean, if there is a poor editor you can't even correct the flaws in the random maps
AMEN! If they prioritize RMG over normal editor, I will throw a fit.  Heroes games always survived for me courtesy of fan-made maps, more than campaigns or official maps. The reason I played Heroes 3 so long was due to the brilliant fan-made maps.
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What will happen now?
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 22, 2011 09:33 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 21:36, 22 Jan 2011.
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I could probably start another argument there, because I feel like there is fairness in randomness. When human judgment has a role to play in all of this, one can't hope to achieve balance between the starting zones of the faction, unless he keeps it all very simply and orderly.
I know you're gonna argue that the RMG wasn't being very fair either, but at least you did not have a part in it. The cards were dealt and that's what you got, right? And that's fair. But even so, if it's that much inbalanced, you can just generate another map. Is only just a couple of minutes.
Furthermore, with creating maps on the editor, one sacrifices one of the most fun aspects of the game: The exploration. To create the map, it means you will know and remember where is what. The Dragon Utopias, the Artifact Merchants, the Gold Mines and everything. There's nothing to discover and your heroes fly straight to where they need to go.
And even if you don't create maps but download them, I just bring Zenofex's argument in effect. Just how many of these maps are good, balanced and rich? How many meet your requirments in size and starting factions?
You know, I only want XL Maps with all factions involved, underground, sea, bosses since we have them now and as rich as they can be in treasures, resources and artifacts. Anything less is not enough. Will there be enough of those by release day? One can keep me playing for a week or so but no more. Will there be another then? Will they be good? At least I know the level of quality I can expect from the RMG. But downloading other users' maps is like a blind date. Rating them could work but then I have even fewer choices. Whereas with the RMG you could click 'generate' along with any options you need ticked, and there you have it.
Ofcourse, I don't mean to convince you or anyone else here that the RMG is better than the Editor. It is not. It is just more useful to me and everyone else who can't bother with the editor or hunting for maps online.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 22, 2011 09:45 PM |
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I think the best of the best custom-made maps will receive the Ubisoft Seal of Approval and maybe get added in patches or publicised in some way at least, and of course there ought to be *way* more official maps up for download than the one bonus mission H5 received. Even on the off-chance that Ubisoft don't end up implementing such a facility, I'll make sure that Age of Heroes does, so there will be quality control.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Meherunes
Adventuring Hero
Daedra Summoner
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posted January 22, 2011 09:49 PM |
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Quote:
I could probably start another argument there, because I feel like there is fairness in randomness. When human judgment has a role to play in all of this, one can't hope to achieve balance between the starting zones of the faction, unless he keeps it all very simply and orderly.
I know you're gonna argue that the RMG wasn't being very fair either, but at least you did not have a part in it. The cards were dealt and that's what you got, right? And that's fair. But even so, if it's that much inbalanced, you can just generate another map. Is only just a couple of minutes.
Furthermore, with creating maps on the editor, one sacrifices one of the most fun aspects of the game: The exploration. To create the map, it means you will know and remember where is what. The Dragon Utopias, the Artifact Merchants, the Gold Mines and everything. There's nothing to discover and your heroes fly straight to where they need to go.
And even if you don't create maps but download them, I just bring Zenofex's argument in effect. Just how many of these maps are good, balanced and rich? How many meet your requirments in size and starting factions?
You know, I only want XL Maps with all factions involved, underground, sea, bosses since we have them now and as rich as they can be in treasures, resources and artifacts. Anything less is not enough. Will there be enough of those by release day? One can keep me playing for a week or so but no more. Will there be another then? Will they be good? At least I know the level of quality I can expect from the RMG. But downloading other users' maps is like a blind date. Rating them could work but then I have even fewer choices. Whereas with the RMG you could click 'generate' along with any options you need ticked, and there you have it.
Ofcourse, I don't mean to convince you or anyone else here that the RMG is better than the Editor. It is not. It is just more useful to me and everyone else who can't bother with the editor or hunting for maps online.
I approve this post entirely. + the download from internet-checking if the map looks good-realizing the faction(s) you wanted arent in there(OR ANOTHER PROBLEM)-closing the game-finding another downloadable map, etc.. all over again. This is too long and boring. I want to not know the map, but if I don't like it, create a new one in a few secs, instead losing time searching for GOOD downloadable maps. IMO a generated map is fairer and closer to perfection than a human made map(some might disagree on this).
IN THE NEXT EXPANSION, GIVE US A RMG!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 22, 2011 11:07 PM |
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I like to play those unbalanced and buggy maps in H5 because victory is even better when you defeat AI on heroic difficulty despite all difficulties you must overcome.
I agree with Alcibiades that RMG is just throwing objects, monsters and towns in random direction without any organisation. I tried it and I wasn't happy woth the result I got.
But then I haven't downloaded and play any fan made maps, but I am certain that they are more organised and balanced than RMG maps.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 23, 2011 12:08 AM |
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Some positions here seem to be deliberately taken to the extreme. The flaws of the RMG are exaggerated too much and the merits of the fan-made maps are praised way beyond their actual value. Or the opposite - the RMG is as important as the game itself.
I strongly disagree that the RMG just "throws objects" all over the map in random order - at least the Heroes III RMG is more than capable of making organized and challenging maps, usable in single- and multi-player games. The fact that some attempts end in bugged results is not much of a hindrance - most of the time you can see that the map is bugged from the very start (faction placed on a non-native terrain) or within the first week (road ends with the exit of a one-way portal). And so on. In my experience - and I've played on hundreds random maps - at least one out of every 4-5 maps is perfectly playable and the "unplayable" ones are identified within the first few days of the game, so it takes no more than 10-15 minutes at most to start a good random map. Very often it works straight away. Whoever says something else simply hasn't used the tool enough or just gives up if the first attempt is unsuccessful (and it takes less than 1 minute to go through all the menus and create another map - no matter the size).
Now the Heroes V RMG simply isn't working properly and should not be taken into account at all. Think of it as a failed prototype if you want.
What I don't understand at all is why the RMG will necessarily have to be a bug-infested, pseudo-usable tool as it is in the minds of some people here? Imagine they make it right. Are you against something which provides maps straight away - and these are new and unique maps with each usage, not something which you've been through 10 times before and can tell the place of every stone? OK, let's imagine that some maps will be bugged and unplayable - this does not differ much from the unbugged, but still unplayable fan-made maps which are just badly designed. In my opinion such a tool has next to no disadvantages, apart from the time necessary for its making. And nobody is forced to use it.
Now, all this does not mean that the fan-made maps are of little importance. On the contrary - given the increasing unwillingness of the producer/developer to provide decent amount of maps with the initial release of the game, the latter just presumes on the players to keep themselves occupied. This can't happen without a good editor. I myself make maps from time to time. A good editor is thus a must. But like I said above, the editor is no excuse for the absence of the RMG.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted January 23, 2011 12:33 AM |
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I agree with Zenofex completely. When it comes to the quality of a RMG you should always know that it can be better. It all comes down to how it is programmed, there are countless of methods and tricks how to make a random map more living.
You could have premade pieces of land that together with a otherwise randomized landscape makes a random map. The problem with that is ofc that after a while you'll start recognize all these "pieces of land".
But another more general and "better" way in my opinion is just makeing sure that all different map objects all placed where they make the most sense, so that they won't just be shattered randomly across the entire map.
There should be a nice combination between lanes and open space. A more thoughtful generation of maps with different types of territories.
The H5 RMG was an abomination compared to the H3 RMG, however despite this I use it all the time. A good RMG is vital and I can't wait for H6 to get one. However a good Editor is even more important and since we can have both because of the lack of time and resources, I'm saying they are making the right call by "choosing" the Editor.
But just like Zenofex says, the editor should not be an excuse for not giving us a RMG. But if would make a RMG, they would be forced to sacrifice something else instead....
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted January 23, 2011 01:13 AM |
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I never felt the need for a RMG feature and was oblivious to it until about a year ago when I read on HC what the heck that is.
Never bothered to use it and I doubt I ever will.
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none of my business.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted January 23, 2011 03:14 AM |
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With a good RMG, I'd probably never play a pre-made map. That was my favorite aspect of Civilization, exploring a completely new world, and the idea of having the same thing with Heroes is definitely appealing.
A decent editor is nice, too, but I know for a fact that I'll never use it, and that's unfortunate. I don't begrudge the developers their decision - I imagine that an RMG would be vastly more complicated to pull off than an editor, for all the reasons that have been stated - but I do miss the feature, and I'll be first in line to buy the expansion that includes it.
Also, on a note from several pages ago... Twelve players? Really?
Who here plans on actually playing with eleven other people in Hot Seat?...
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Meherunes
Adventuring Hero
Daedra Summoner
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posted January 23, 2011 03:36 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
IN A BIG AWESOME CONTENT-PATCH SHORTLY AFTER THE RELEASE, GIVE US A RMG!
Fixed it for you
Ty, that is better than what I had in mind. I agree with your post too. The H5 RMG is nowhere near perfection, but I love to use it.
I am sure H6 could have a great RMG, and even if it wasn't great, I would still use it.
For the people who never use RMG, you are missing something really nice. In fact, as Jabanoss, I think it is VITAL and many people would benefit from it. Same goes for map editor, though I think it is AS important as RMG, not more.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 08:57 AM |
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To be honest, I don't know what people are talking about when saying the H5 RMG was useless. I thought it was kind of repetitive and monotonic but I never encountered any bugs. H3's RMG never had any bugs either except messing up by placing towns out of their native tilesets. Anyway, maybe I was just lucky. 
Zenofex is right. The goal is to have a plethora of maps. The means is either through the Editor or through the RMG. It is irrational to preffer the Editor which requires so much more effort and time to do even the simplest and smallest of the maps, instead of pressing them to create an RMG that will work as it should and give us all the maps that we need in seconds.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Tomash
Hired Hero
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posted January 23, 2011 10:10 AM |
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Edited by Tomash at 10:11, 23 Jan 2011.
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If map editor will be easy and user-friendly like in HoMM 3 I know there will be thousands of fan maps after first year. It was pure pleasure to make maps for HoMM 3 becouse everything was so simply to set. So easy to create hidden encounters, weekly events. Creator must only have clear idea and spare some time. Creating is pure fun 
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[url=http://dragcave.net/view/pbl4] [/url][url=http://dragcave.net/view/DQ1K] [/url]
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lordriton
Known Hero
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posted January 23, 2011 10:28 AM |
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I still daily play a Random Heroes 3.5 map, and for me the RMG is a must have for H6 !
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 12:02 PM |
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Quote:
If map editor will be easy and user-friendly like in HoMM 3 I know there will be thousands of fan maps after first year. It was pure pleasure to make maps for HoMM 3 becouse everything was so simply to set. So easy to create hidden encounters, weekly events. Creator must only have clear idea and spare some time. Creating is pure fun
I don't want thousands of maps after the first year. I want as many as I need at the very first day.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted January 23, 2011 12:24 PM |
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If you play heroes 24/7 then yes, I suppose RMG is the only way to satisfy your first day of gaming needs
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none of my business.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 12:37 PM |
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Quote:
If you play heroes 24/7 then yes, I suppose RMG is the only way to satisfy your first day of gaming needs
A few hours daily is enough for me. 
But even so, without an RMG, I won't have a map to play on. It's gonna be a long time till the mapmaking community will have any good maps to give. You're willing to wait till then? I'm not.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted January 23, 2011 12:42 PM |
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How is it possible that you don't have maps to play on the first day? lol
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 12:48 PM |
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Quote:
How is it possible that you don't have maps to play on the first day? lol
Cause all there will be, is the 10 maps that will ship along with the game and they will have their limitations. I'm perfectly sure that no map is going to be just the way I want it. And no map will be so for a long time to come. And the first few maps that will be meeting my requirements will suck too. To find a good map just the way I want it, I will probably have to wait a few months...or even more!
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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