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Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: The End of Black Hole Games?
Thread: The End of Black Hole Games? This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 · «PREV / NEXT»
Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted February 20, 2012 01:09 PM


____________

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted February 20, 2012 10:40 PM
Edited by Avonu at 22:41, 20 Feb 2012.

Quote:
You're talking about the company that is making an exact copy-paste of Civ 5 in a heroic-fantasy setting and that will sell it for the full price when it's nothing more than a mod ?

You could actually use the same sentence about MicroProse and Master of Magic.

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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted February 21, 2012 09:26 AM

I do not understand on thing. Why are people waiting for Heroes VII?

What good things will it bring? Graphics are awesome so that is out. Map objects are as diverse as it gets. Story for Campaign is deep enough (maybe too deep). Factions are too few so there is plenty of space there to add newer.

So what could people expect from Heroes 7 that Heroes 6 does not have? I think it is more important to fix Heroes 6 (modding would be enough) get some multilayer traction and some user-made maps.

I just don't get it.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted February 21, 2012 10:22 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 10:33, 21 Feb 2012.

Quote:
...Let's just say that you don't get transferred from a top AAA title to a simple browser-based game if you can do your job right...
@Dexter, I'm sure others have also wondered about that, including myself (although I don't use the term "top AAA title").

Quote:
Then again we have companies like Bethesda that make some of the best games in the world and still manage to make dragons fly backwards with their patches.
@Adrius, I treat occasional bugs in rpg/adventure games different than critical broken repeatable battle abilities in a TBS.

Quote:
You're talking about the company that is making an exact copy-paste of Civ 5 in a heroic-fantasy setting and that will sell it for the full price when it's nothing more than a mod ?
Not sure about the accuracy of this statement, Avonu seems more correct but even then I wonder how similar the game will be [but I haven't played Civ 5, but have played Civ 2 & MoM]

Even though this thread was originally about H6 developer maybe not doing so well financially:

I think H5TotE pulled a rabbit out of the hat & seemed to be a good pleasant surprise compared to what happened in H5 & H5HoF releases before that. [but never look at critic's reviews as they're rubbish]

Regressing back to bad first release again instead of improvement is so disappointing...makes you wonder why think about H7 if it's same old argh.(like krs mentioned)

So I think the best thing for the game is to do the same as they did for TotE (design/development/management/consultation/quality wise)
{I don't know exactly what they did different, but the personnel & developer are different now}.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted February 21, 2012 10:56 AM

Quote:
I do not understand on thing. Why are people waiting for Heroes VII?

What good things will it bring? Graphics are awesome so that is out. Map objects are as diverse as it gets. Story for Campaign is deep enough (maybe too deep). Factions are too few so there is plenty of space there to add newer.

So what could people expect from Heroes 7 that Heroes 6 does not have? I think it is more important to fix Heroes 6 (modding would be enough) get some multilayer traction and some user-made maps.

I just don't get it.



People talk about Heroes VII because of the reasonable expectation the bankrupcy of Black Hole could well mean the end of development of Heroes VI. This because of switching developers mid-project is extremely problematic.
There is a reasonable chance that Heroes VI will never get fixed from the publisher's/developer's end of the game. Any and all fixes would then need to come from the community.

I agree that the Graphics are very good, but those come from Puppetworks Animation, so if Ubisoft goes with them again on the next project, it will be of the same quality. On the other hand, some may still cling to the hope (forlorn, IMHO) that a new HoMM goes back to 2D.

A HoMM VII offers the chance of a new game that does not share VI's faults. For all hope and optimism that speaks of this, there is a chance that a new game would turn over a new leaf. A game that would meet the expectations better.(I am convinced that it's impossible to ever meet the heavenhigh expectations of the fanbase)
The only thing that, IMO, will only happen when Hell freezes over on the very same day pigs start to fly is the selling of the Franchise without a Ubisoft bankrupcy.

Lastly, I must respectfully though very strongly disagree with is the statement that the Story of the Campaign is deep or even deep enough. I'll admit that it was deeper than in Heroes V, however in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At the time both the setting and the stories given are shallow. There is some potential, but the setting is never more than knee-deep, with stories that not even reach that depth. The characters are shallow, have little to no redeeming value and because of that are hard to connect with. The attempts at wittyness are oft grinding and so far, the best part written are some side characters, who seem at least part alive.(which is helped by the fact that they are only side characters) One of the few things that realy improved, IMO, was the voice acting. But again in the land of the blind etc.
In the entire regard of lore and story, there is the metaphor of dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants. In this case Heroes VI is the dwarf that stands on the shoulders of the gnome that is Heroes V.
____________
Iron from Ice.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted February 21, 2012 11:16 AM

Quote:
Why are people waiting for Heroes So what could people expect from Heroes 7 that Heroes 6 does not have? I think it is more important to fix Heroes 6 (modding would be enough) get some multilayer traction and some user-made maps.

The most important thing is that factions are different from each other...not this generic go for whatever you want vibe. Factions should have their own unique skills and strengths and weaknesses. That's what I liked in H5 (eg. wizards going for summoning -> conjure phoenix, Haven should not....)

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted February 21, 2012 11:39 AM

I cross my fingers for Warlock: Master of the Arcane. After the two HOMM games from Ubisoft which I consider mediocre, I have more faith in a new publisher.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die

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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted February 21, 2012 01:06 PM

Even if they change the developer, a radical patch will just take longer but it will be way cheaper to come with something new based on work already existent. I do not see any things that cannot be fixed in the current installment that will be fixed by Heroes 7. So they can just make a big patch where they fix and change a lot of mechanics add 2 new factions, etc, (something like a TotE patch) and charge us again.

I know people threat all the time to not buy their products anymore, but if they do not clear up the mess they've made with Heroes 6 first... I doubt they will have a player base to sell this game to.

There is no need of Heroes 7 for the next 5 years, and there will be no need ever! for a completely new installment if they fix things quite right with this one.

Here the recipe: Leave graphics unchanged! Fix multiplayer, add simultaneous turns, new skill tree with more depth, towns that are not copy paste from one another, RMG, no bugs, a little more balance, maps-maps-maps and mods-mods-mods.

What puzzles me is that this recipe is well known since Heroes 3 and they keep forgetting or messing up ingredients.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 21, 2012 01:43 PM

Quote:
... there will be no need ever! for a completely new installment if...

Are you a commie or something?

That's an open affront against the basic principles of our holy capitalist world order and its foundation, the idea of making a profit.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 21, 2012 01:44 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 13:44, 21 Feb 2012.

Quote:
I do not understand on thing. Why are people waiting for Heroes VII?

What good things will it bring? Graphics are awesome so that is out. Map objects are as diverse as it gets. Story for Campaign is deep enough (maybe too deep). Factions are too few so there is plenty of space there to add newer.
I'm not waiting for Heroes VII but the graphics of Heroes VI are not awesome, the story of the campaign is better only than the infantile Heroes V (read - below mediocre on its own) and yeah, the factions have never been fewer, except in Heroes I.

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted February 21, 2012 06:13 PM

All this situation and relations between Ubisoft and Black Hole remind me this scene.

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foxxxer
foxxxer


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 21, 2012 09:33 PM
Edited by foxxxer at 21:37, 21 Feb 2012.

If the rumor is true I am really sorry for Black Hole. I rather want Ubiís bankruptcy than that of the Black Hole. Certainly BH is not the big culprit and we donít have to blame Ďem for the misbegotten Heroes 6. Ubisoft make the major decisions and have demands what have to be done. Definitely Heroes 6 project was a big bite for Black Hole. But when a big company with a big project comes to you, you canít say "no, we are too small firm, we canít do your project". The only fault is in Ubisoft and their moronic judgment of selecting the developer. I donít know but thereís a possible Ubisoft have imposed some forfeits to Black Hole for delaying of the game, bugs, etc. And that to be the crucial point of the bankruptcy.

I have the feeling that Ubisoft is gonna use Heroes until the last fan give up buying the game. I mean they suck every single penny from the old fans, they donít rely on new recruitments in heroes fanbase. They only rely on the old fansí comprehension ďI donít like that Heroes but Iíll buy it because I wanna sequelĒ but that wonít last forever. Every one has a breaking point of the patience/loyalty. But frankly I donít care already if the franchise died. I donít expect anything good from that company and Iím starting to realize that my favorite game series have died many years ago when Shadow of death was released in 2000. After that only disappointments though I played H4 more than H5 and H6 together.

Quote:
So what could people expect from Heroes 7 that Heroes 6 does not have?

Skill tree, spells that can be learned from Mage guilds, more rare resources, properly town screens, separate dwellings for creatures on adventure map, non-share creature pool for all towns, no town conversion, better design of the creatures, deeper and more interesting story for campaigns and many others features but as I said I donít expect anything good from Ubi only sucking money.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 21, 2012 10:16 PM

Quote:
They only rely on the old fansí comprehension ďI donít like that Heroes but Iíll buy it because I wanna sequelĒ
They also rely on more successful spin-off products such as Clash of Heroes and Dark Messiah.

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted February 21, 2012 10:32 PM

In all fairness... it's not like Ubisoft doesn't release a lot of good games too. Like the Anno series, Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia, probably more that I can't think of... yeah.

What if we just had a Heroes 3 enhanced version? That's what everyone always refer to as THE Heroes game anyway. Make HD sprite versions of the Heroes 3 ones, add an easy to use map-maker, nice online community services...

Release it on hand-helds as well. Touch screen Heroes work awesome.

$$$ profit.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 21, 2012 10:32 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 22:33, 21 Feb 2012.

Quote:
Quote:
So what could people expect from Heroes 7 that Heroes 6 does not have?

Skill tree, spells that can be learned from Mage guilds, more rare resources, properly town screens, separate dwellings for creatures on adventure map, non-share creature pool for all towns, no town conversion, better design of the creatures, deeper and more interesting story for campaigns and many others features ...

Thank you for saying this. Apart from the thing about town conversion, I pretty much agree with you.
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What will happen now?

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted February 21, 2012 11:23 PM

krs and foxxxer have it right. Speaking for myself, I have told Ubisoft that I am leaving their VIP forum if they abandon or cancel Heroes VI's development prematurely. I'm not willing to remain the official fan representative who stood by quietly as an expensive drinks coaster which should've been a fluid game was released and forgotten about. Since H6 was in itself their big second chance to listen and do something right after Heroes V's hit-and-miss effort, moving on to Heroes VII now would mean nothing to me.

Clear feedback on what to do was presented well in advance and it wasn't heeded properly by the developer, so who's to say it would be implemented next time? The whole debacle would simply repeat and cheapen the series further. When I think about it, half the participation involved supporting Ubi's production team in begging for more development time from their financial/business teams, and even those extensions did not help. A turn-based strategy game of the calibre they aimed at takes more time and manpower than either Ubi or BH were willing or able to give, ambitions were missed, and the result is a broken product which nobody likes very much.

Bottom line is, I'm not sure how anybody could drum up anticipation for H7 while this disastrously unfinished offering is still hanging around? There are cost-effective ways available to Ubisoft to fix the game, reverse bad design decisions and win back lots of credibility if they are so inclined. I'll wait and see what happens, but if they throw responsibility to finishing H6 overboard then I'm jettisoning too.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." óProverb, Might and Magic VIII

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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 21, 2012 11:46 PM

Quote:

Bottom line is, I'm not sure how anybody could drum up anticipation for H7 while this disastrously unfinished offering is still hanging around? There are cost-effective ways available to Ubisoft to fix the game, reverse bad design decisions and win back lots of credibility if they are so inclined. I'll wait and see what happens, but if they throw responsibility to finishing H6 overboard then I'm jettisoning too.


Well, this I can't disagree with.

I'm not as pessimistic as many others are about HoMM6 but their way of taking feedback into account seems more like some sort of joke than anything else.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted February 22, 2012 07:53 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 07:55, 22 Feb 2012.

I wonder if there's any chance of confirming the rumor after almost a week.

Quote:
...Certainly BH is not the big culprit and we donít have to blame Ďem for the misbegotten Heroes 6. Ubisoft make the major decisions and have demands what have to be done. Definitely Heroes 6 project was a big bite for Black Hole. But when a big company with a big project comes to you, you canít say "no, we are too small firm, we canít do your project". The only fault is in Ubisoft and their moronic judgment of selecting the developer. I donít know but thereís a possible Ubisoft have imposed some forfeits to Black Hole for delaying of the game, bugs, etc. And that to be the crucial point of the bankruptcy.
You know many businesses (probably even the majority) make big mistakes like promising too much & severely underestimating the skill/work required to do a big job.  Some of them learn afterwards about being more diligent about what jobs they do or be more aware of the conditions attached to a contract & then the business grows stronger afterwards if they survive the crisis.  I don't see how the "only fault is in Ubisoft and their moronic judgment of selecting the developer."  Surely they have a tender process to select developers.  Any business trying to chase & accept every job even if they cannot do it properly or will make a big loss sounds naive, but it's ok because lets blame the client

Quote:
...donít rely on new recruitments in heroes fanbase...
disagree - look at the (wrong imo) focus on graphics/casual/rpg/conflux elements.

If I were a VIP, I would have thought about quitting several months before release when I knew AI was going to be crap (without Quantomas) & then definitely would have spat the dummy at release when offline mode had no starting hero choice & only starting hero had reputation & no non-dynasty weapons [that would be even before no playable custom MP maps online]

But then again, your efforts are appreciated Cepheus even though they are mostly behind-the-scenes & invisible.  There's a fine line between angrily rage-quitting & hoping the remaining group improves from the event versus staying & trying to influence things from within...it's impossible to know which way is better until after the event
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted February 22, 2012 10:01 AM

Quote:
Quote:
... there will be no need ever! for a completely new installment if...

Are you a commie or something?

That's an open affront against the basic principles of our holy capitalist world order and its foundation, the idea of making a profit.


If Capitalism it is like I think about Supply and demand, Ubisoft will have a real! problem with Demand on Heroes 7 if they leave Heroes 6 as it is.

Somebody said the Graphics are awful...

Let me elaborate a little on that. In my understanding 80%+ agree the graphics are gorgeous. Same goes for simultaneous turns. On the less resources issue, I think is more like 60 for-40 against, etc (Lets not argue about the real numbers).

My point is: This divide is exactly the argument the developers are using to justify their decisions (after they have been made). And here is the "job" of the lethargic save heroes 6 campaign. Make a definite list with all the things the overwhelming majority wants, put realistic priorities on it and send it to UBIsoft signed by thousands. I doubt they can completely ignore that, no matter what decisions they take regarding their developer.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 22, 2012 10:08 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 10:09, 22 Feb 2012.

There already was such a list when they confirmed that the town windows will be their current selves which less than 0.1% of the players like. As you can see, real town screens are nowhere near the horizon yet.
Ubisoft are fully aware what needs fixing according to the players but are not showing any signs of activity (I'd add - they were made fully aware when Heroes V was released as well but it took them more than an year to get it done + they charged the players for each piece of improvement save the map editor).

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