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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted September 19, 2012 04:26 PM |
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The first part of my text was all about Islam and the topic so I thought it would be alright.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 19, 2012 04:30 PM |
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Religion is guided by a clear agenda, while atheism has not one. All those muslims will condemn any insult towards prophet because they were taught to do so. An atheist is not taught to react specifically, he still has free will. Therefore I don't see how then atheist can be a criminal because atheist, atheist meaning "nothing", no ideology or belief but only self made morality through personal education.
As for the thread, it is impossible to stick to only muslims and their religion while ignoring the eternal skirmish between belief and not belief. Because in the end, all is resumed to this.
Today a satirical news paper in France release (funny) Mohamed caricatures. Several french schools were closed and placed under police protection. Not sure was the best moment to make more money from.
SOURCE
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 19, 2012 05:12 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:14, 19 Sep 2012.
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Corribus since there was a direct reply to me, i'll have my answer very shortly for the last time and then stick to the subject.
For the last time, a healthy definition of concepts is a must for a discussion no matter what your opinions are. For something to be called a religion you need two things. First you need a metaphysical explanation of the world, atheism is the opposite of that, it is an absolutely materialistic world view. Secondly, you need people participating in common rituals, atheism (or many forms of deism for that matter) has none. To say atheism is a religion because you can't scientifically prove there is no god is being a total demagogue and knowing exactly nothing about the scientific method: Science only handles falsifiable material, the question of God isn't even scientific to begin with. Much more importantly for the third and last time: Burden of proof is upon existence of things, not non-existence of things: I can not prove that in a galaxy far away, gold dragons don't exist, philosophically speaking, i can not even prove anything but my mind exists. The freedom of religion does not categorically take god out of that equation. Looking at things objectively, there is no valid, special reason to believe in god, scientists, people who study universe still tell us they can very well explain it without the concept of any sort of deity (lately Stephan Hawking for example). So, the universe screams nothing and we need no sort of emotional approach to become atheists. It is the position of not to assume God since there is no reason to.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 19, 2012 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:26, 19 Sep 2012.
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@Salamandre
Quote:
The French Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault, today said the organisers of a demonstration against the 'Innocence of Muslims' film planned....
Is that not irony? Muslims demonstrating against their "Innocence".
@All
Actually, I find it funny how people are still reasoning with elodin and his claims.
I find it very ironic when Corribus says "Stick to the thread". The various derails made by eloding actually fit to the thread very well.
Just as elodin believes he is "Defending" religion, one could assume that muslims believe they are defending it. Elodins fervor is a good sign that "Normal" dialouge is not possible.
Why is it such a problem for faithful muslims to get "Insulted" by a joke? I believe that they fear that some of their followers will leave, and for some magical reason, they get insulted.
Doomforge made a comparison between faith and parents. While I disagree that this comparison is a good one, the basic conclusion of this comparison was that it would not be fine to "Insult" ones mother, so the same goes for a religion.
But this comparison is a very bad one.
Firstly, a mother is not known "Worldwide" as Is a religion.
Secondly, a amother belongs to few people ie. her children. A religion has billions of followers-
Thridly, the threshold for "Insulting" a religion is vague. Saying something like "Not eating pork is a bad idea" might be considered an insult.
Lastly, faith is not personal. Faithful people will scream about their righteousness. A child would not go around screaming his/her mother is the model of humanity...
Muslims even go as far as to claim that "If the whole world was muslim, there would be peace". Of course this sentence reeks of intolerance, theocracy, blind faith, ignorance and to some extent fascism.
I can say this, considering the ammount of "Indoctrination" and ignorance muslims have, one really should stop reasoning with their leaders.
Obviously, there can be no reasoning as long as one does not contact and speak "Their" faith based reality, which is by definition "Submission" to their needs.
I would have created a europewide ban on everything that Islam infringes upon secular laws.
Sharia courts, burqas,hatespeech against jews and atheists, some of their hate mongering hadiths etc, all of these should be banned or considered illegal. The quran, and everything that infringes upon secular laws should be revised and be rewritten. A bit harsh but I see that these would be desperate measures.
Many countries are having issues with their economy. If we were living 100 years ago, we would have war now...
But if it were to me, I will deport their religious leaders and or ban Islam completely. And on the same way Scientology and some other destructive religions.
But I never understood something, why do muslims emigrate in europe?
Infidel countries? Why would they go into the lands of "Heretics"?
Why the heck do they "Scream" injustice when they are going into a country with a different religion and freedom of speech?
Also, why dont european countries deport them? I know that germany changed their laws and that they can "Revoke" citizenships.
Its extremely arrogant to go into an asylum and ask people ther to go by "YOUR" rules.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted September 19, 2012 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
one could assume that muslims believe they are defending it.
Seraphim,let me give you an example.
You respect yourself,your ways of living,working and beliefs.
Somebody begins to make jokes about you,to bully you,to stand in your way and to call you criminal or something else.
So you would defend yourself,right?
You wont give him the keys from your appartment and you would not share with him something precious for you.
You will fight him if necessary.
So its not really a surprize that muslims defend their ways.
They defend from the aggression upon them.
Quote:
Why is it such a problem for faithful muslims to get "Insulted" by a joke? I believe
What you call a joke,muslims call disrespect,they call it insult and not acceptable.They dont take it as lightly as we do.
Quote:
I would have created a europewide ban on everything that Islam infringes upon secular laws.
Sharia courts, burqas,hatespeech against jews and atheists, some of their hate mongering hadiths etc, all of these should be banned or considered illegal. The quran, and everything that infringes upon secular laws should be revised and be rewritten. A bit harsh but I see that these would be desperate measures.
Well,I think that we should write many definitions again and again.
In western countries the laws are very complicated and without a good lawer you can do practicaly nothing.
No one knows what will you do when your neighbour,your "friends",
people you know would sue you or bury you in deep trouble just for their selfish gain.
With better definitions this rule burden will be lighter and more efective.
My main point is,this muslim problem is placed before us to take our attention from more serious and global problems like:
1.Safety for our families/children
2.Management of our debts
3.Every day aggression we live in
and on...
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 19, 2012 09:20 PM |
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Except that western world should not care what think extremist muslims 2000 miles away about a self made video or a satirical news paper. Is not like anyone forces them to look, nor a whole country provocation or government supported. I understand that they feel frustrated like virgins on period in that sh*t hole they live in, but who's fault? Why are those thousand people in the street every day and night crying Snackbar over and over? Don't they have a job or families to feed?
What if whole US go on manifest and burns every muslim house because its diplomat got killed? If we acted their way, there would be not enough graves.
I watched a few moments from that movie, it is awful movie. Supposedly comic, acted amateurish, idiotic dialogs and the only reason it would survive more than one day is because they keep being offended about. There is no way any cultivated person could take that movie seriously or consider it as manifesto.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 19, 2012 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 00:32, 20 Sep 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
one could assume that muslims believe they are defending it.
Seraphim,let me give you an example.
You respect yourself,your ways of living,working and beliefs.
Somebody begins to make jokes about you,to bully you,to stand in your way and to call you criminal or something else.
I have experienced that actually.
Somebody screaming "You are a criminal" or any insult can be percieved in only one way, as a personal offense.
People who believe in faith perceive insults differently because the "Threshold" on what is to be considered an insult is not defined.
Everyone knows that insulting someone, lets say based on looks, is just blatant slander. You dont need anything to know about that.
In order not to "insult" a faith, one would have to study that faith, meet the people of that you have to deal with that faith and then post something that cannot "insult" them and even than it might be in vain.
I believe that euthanasia should be allowed,
Saying, lets say, that euthanasia is extremely immoral and its adherents are "Insert curse word here" is an insult to euthanasia adherents.
Saying euthanasia is immoral, may or may not be an insult, based on how brainwashed I am. I could answer with "HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT!!!"
Saying Islam is extremely intolerant is not an insult, its not slander, its just:
An opinion that may have its merits or a fact. If islamic followers consider it an insult, it does not mean that it is.
Comparison does not work well here, please not that.
Quote:
So its not really a surprize that muslims defend their ways.
They defend from the aggression upon them.
Defend? They must have a really twisted version of defense then. Heck, they dont even try to maintain some level of "niveau".
Agression? If some video posted in youtube that jokes upon their beliefs is agression, then this world stopped making sense for me now completely.
I understand that they might feel "Extreme" rage that someone made fun of their most holy...Its not hard to understand that.
I have experienced insults,teasings and so on from people in real life. I did defend myself but believe me, the circumstances were nothing compared to this.
As an outsider though, I dont care what they feel. They can feel the need to kill everybody, they just should not do that.
The only appropriate counter action would have been if they tried to do the same in youtube against the video uploader.
Posting mature REsponese but I believe that is too much to ask.
Its a far more serious offense to post a video about a particular person and make jokes about him/her than posting a video about something that does not even have an identity.
Quote:
What you call a joke,muslims call disrespect,they call it insult and not acceptable.They dont take it as lightly as we do.
That does not mean that we have to respect them or change or censor what we say.
While for muslims the burqa or the headscarf are good and moral, for me is a discrimination towards woman.
Calling evolution a lie and the quran is everything one needs is disrespect to me aswell because the quran is a disgusting to me and inhuman to me.
Quote:
No one knows what will you do when your neighbour,your "friends",
people you know would sue you or bury you in deep trouble just for their selfish gain.
Ok, did you know that a girl can claim that a man raped her even without investigation?
Quote:
Years ago a female falsely accused a man of rape. The problem was that she and her sisters were trying to extort money from this man. Yet the State under the "Victim of Crime" law but the prosecutors did nothing. So the reason that some women lie about rape or abuse is that they know that the state never prosecutes women for these crimes and it is sexually gratifying. So while penalties for perjury exist, the officials never enforce them to protect men. In some jurisdictions, a female has to admit that she lied despite the evidence that proves her guilt. This has to occur before a judge can exonerate a defendant. The problem is that making a false accusation or claim (perjury) is only a misdemeanor in many states. That is why many do it.
Link
Why would it be such a problem if hadiths were banned?
Quote:
My main point is,this muslim problem is placed before us to take our attention from more serious and global problems like:
1.Safety for our families/children
2.Management of our debts
3.Every day aggression we live in
and on...
Which the muslim immigrants are actually partly responsible:
1: Violence towards people. Extremely crime prone muslim youths.
2: They create crime sores in cities, more expenditure.
3: See 1 and 2.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted September 19, 2012 11:52 PM |
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I wrote about it before. The muslim threat is exagerated and there are much better solutions than targeting/persecuting muslims in particular. The far right political parties that have appeared in most european countries and their supporters are the real threat. They feed on misplaced fear and use national colours and symbols to disguise themselves as champions of the "true" people of the nation. Supporting them is like selling your soul to the devil to get revenge on a bully. Revenge is sweet but is it worth eternal damnation?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2012 12:16 AM |
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Nice diatribe, but others parties just brought the countries in deficit, insecurity and constant censorship. Unless one of them takes the right decisions and does not give up at first Bruxelles complaint, more and more people will vote for far right. It is not about "muslims", but about "not controlled mass immigration from extremely poor countries". It happens that majority are muslims.
And many many other social issues, far right is not focusing on immigration only.
Besides this, having a strong far right party in opposition is giving a challenge to actual government, it can't just ignore 20% of voters and keep singing in the rain.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 20, 2012 04:37 AM |
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which other parties? UMPS, and... ???
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 20, 2012 06:44 AM |
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The rich people leaving Hollande's France will make up for the incoming immigrants
In all seriousness though, what are the significant differences between the far right and the other four major parties there specifically concerning immigration? Is Hollande planning on trying to maintain the status quo?
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2012 06:47 AM |
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Hollande promised to allow voting to all immigrants not naturalized. Despite 61% of population being against. Like this was the priority...
About immigration, besides an increased control over it, far right party propose the instant deportation towards origin country for all having a criminal record and not having papers/being illegally on the territory, which Bruxelles considers contrary to "human rights" [irony].
Those having already french naturalization are not included. Which is what every country should do, but it doesn't.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted September 20, 2012 06:57 AM |
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Does the Muslim population in France even have significant voter turnout? Would they vote for the center left party?
I have observed in some cases how there ends up being a paradoxical alliance between Muslims and the social center left.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2012 06:59 AM |
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Ironically many muslims in France are far right voters because the area they live in became very insecure. Hard to know properly though who all of them vote because this is where censor ship is at its best, it is prohibited to give any infos about the origins.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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posted September 20, 2012 07:01 AM |
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They vote themselves into deportation?
I'd think they'd at least go for Sarkozy again.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2012 07:05 AM |
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The majority of muslims in France are already naturalized, this measure does not concern them. Far right never proposed (on paper at least) to move out all the people from different origins but already having citizenship (there are 20 millions of them!). This is where FN detractors are spreading confusion and false data.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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posted September 20, 2012 07:07 AM |
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How long does it take to get naturalized?
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2012 07:09 AM |
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I think it takes up to 2 years, depends on criminal record too. I moved here 15 years ago but never asked naturalization, but if far right is close to power (which I doubt for the close future) I will surely ask for.
For now, they are just a necessary actor on the political stage, voicing a different opinion.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 20, 2012 09:47 AM |
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Muslims are welcomed in France when they buy the majority of a football club, invest millions of Euros in swedish players and then aim for the champions league win..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted September 20, 2012 03:24 PM |
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This thread is pages long: 
