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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 468 pages long: 1 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 ... 448 449 450 451 452 ... 468 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2020 11:40 AM

I'm not so sure about the skill "reworks" anyway. It's really easy to turn legendary game into soulless "balanced" poop. HotA team is threading on thin ice here. It wouldn't be the first mod that ultimately failed because of doing "ambitious" changes to what people learned to love.

All we need for magic schools is a slight tweak to fire magic, because it sucks. The easiest way would be to make "Expert" versions of spells better to make Fire Magic skill useful. Also, buffs to individual spells, but nothing too crazy.

Water magic could use a proper level 5 spell, maybe slight buffs to underappreciated ones.

Earth/Air don't need buffs or nerfs. Earth was already nerfed, leave it at that.

I already don't like the changes to "Slow" or Logistics. Why would you want to make the game slower? That's all this does: makes you move less far & makes certain bank rushes weaker.


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted October 03, 2020 11:43 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:44, 03 Oct 2020.

The Logistics change is justified by the fact that the one who gets Logistics and/or Logistics spec hero is gonna cover muuuuch more ground than the other player, effectively ending with the Logistics player covering roughly 1/3 more ground than the other using the main hero, which is a pretty nuts advantage in competitive PvP.
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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
posted October 03, 2020 12:00 PM
Edited by RerryR at 12:17, 03 Oct 2020.

FirePaladin said:
@RerryR

They were doing and redoing Ram Ranch for like the last 3 years (or even more, I think, but most people forgot or didn't know). And yes, they did promise, but they never gave an actual date, nor they said it will be soon (they usually say it won't be soon anyway). They're a bunch of people making H3 quality and style assets after all, and it's a very tough job, speaking from experience. Every detail has to be done perfectly. And not every team member is available to work daily, they might even not work for a whole week due to reasons. Although I'm personally not that much into the new faction being the 18 cowboys and steampunk (doesn't mean I don't like it/consider it's ok, though, just that it's more like a freely made faction; it's not really based on lore and the lore doesn't exclude it either).



They have been working on the new faction for a long time, iam aware of that. Once released I'am sure it will be good and a welcome addition to the game. I respect them for their cool mod. I usually dont play HotA myself, so I dont care to much what actually happens, from time to time I just make a salty post to tease these guys here in the forum
Theres one thing however I dont agree with. An argument I hear often that they dont have "time" to make small adjustments to some secondary skill values. Lets talk real: It takes 5 minutes to increase the value of Sorcery to 30%, increase learning to 50%, increase Mysticism, same for First Aid and Eagle Eye. Iam not talking about changing game mechanics or some other fancy gimmick. Just a little increase in numbers. Iam really convinced that this would be GOOD for the game, for single-player as well as multiplayer. Did we hear anybody complaining when they buffed Mysticism? If these changes had been done 5 years ago we could be discussing on a whole other level. The forums wouldn't be flooded with post suggestion to rework or buff these skills, being it here on HC or at DF2.
Would these changes affect MP in a bad way? I highly doubt it. Every other competitive game gets balance updates on a regular basis by adjusting weaker or underused skills.
Breaking compatibility with older maps? Who gives a rats ass. A map that relies on learning being 15% instead of 30% needs to be questioned in the first place.
So there clearly was a decision by the crew to go really slow with these changes and as long as this status remain like this, mixed with the fact that they do a really closed development with very little insight, we will sometimes have these controversial discussion here in the forum.

Having said this, Iam looking forward to the new update, whenever it might come.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 03, 2020 12:25 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:51, 03 Oct 2020.

^^ I 100% agree with this.

I have one more thing to add:
I don't know the exact percentage, but it seems like 50% of people would like to see skills reworked and 50% don't want to change them. Some people want (OP) Logistics, Intelligence and even Necromancy back, while others like the game much more with the toned down values.
That is why HotA HAVE to make skills changes optional, so you can play with the original version or their version and the skills should be independent of each other, so let's say I want to play like this:
New Nceromancy, Logistics, Intelligence, Mysticism and Scouting, but old Resistance and Estates.

It might be those conservative fans, that don't want change, that are actually holding HotA back and why it's taking them years to change anything.

So make skill changes optional and you satisfy a lot more people. That can only be a win-win situation.

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pellish
pellish


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2020 12:49 PM

Rimgrabber said:
Am I the only one that's convinced that Phoenix's map doesn't even actually exist and he's just trolling us?


That would be amazing to be honest. Hats off in that case.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 03, 2020 12:53 PM

pellish said:
Rimgrabber said:
Am I the only one that's convinced that Phoenix's map doesn't even actually exist and he's just trolling us?


That would be amazing to be honest. Hats off in that case.

Go ahead and ask BloodSucker, he once received an old version of my map. It's called Thousand Treasures and it's based on the Armageddon's Blade map called Thousand Islands.

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
King of the ogres
posted October 03, 2020 01:32 PM
Edited by sirironfist at 13:33, 03 Oct 2020.

What I value about Hota is that they make quality changes. For example they didn't go the easy way by simply decreasing phoenix growth to 2 and then maybe increasing phoenix stats a little bit. Instead they introduced the vault of ashes which fits perfectly into the conflux town.

And they're doing it slowly, giving the new changes time to show what they're good for. Because after all, nobody can predict exactly how a change will affect the game. The game is too multifaceted for that.

If they had gone down a hardcore balancing route, I'd be off playing SoD or ERA instead.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2020 09:05 PM

IMO there's a very easy way to look at this:

Did you pay money to play this mod?
- Nobody did, and therefore nobody is cheated. It would be very different story if triple A company would false advertise it's product, or suddenly completely change the game when it was already released.

Is the mod made by a big company with basically endless resources and money?
- No it's not, actually it's a hobby project for a handful of modders who are working when they want, how they want. Just like anyone else, anybody can make their own projects, and add their own rules and value different gameplay areas how they desire.

"Hota needs to do X/ Hota needs to revert Y or do it differently!"
- No they don't, as in the end of day, it's their project and they have their own vision. It's still hobby, and the creators can choose how they spend their own time. We can accept to play their rules and vision, or be happy without.

"I couldn't care any less about Hota"
- Then move on, there are plenty of platforms for this game alone. There's no need for trying to change Hota into something it never was and never will be, especially when there are other mods to go for.

"At first, I did like Hota, but I think they changed it too much along the way."
- No problem, just roll with the patch you were happy with. We played 1.4.2 for a long time, and it doesn't have such things like Spell research, logi nerf, etc, while still being very bug-free and stable build.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2020 09:09 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 21:12, 03 Oct 2020.

Well at least something happened here

As for AI: You can never really improve AI to play efficiant, it's just not possible to chain heroes in a reasonable way. Loops, IF and WHILE logics wont help you there, it need brains and hero management you can't really implement at all, its more or less limited to semi static and semi random behaviour. As for battles the AI may decide and calculate the monster and spell value and act like a chess computer.... if anyone is able to generate something like this at all... But for the map and movement mangement AI stays dumb...

Balance in general: If it was for me there would be more testing. Like -> every 4-6 months a skill/spell change -> small changes and a lot of excel calculations and gameplay watching for further buffs of nerfs. My guess would still be, that the gameplay would get some more monotonous that way BUT its possible to add some features to spells, that case a pure damage skill vs. a damage skill with some additional effect would be interesting. On long term -> Every spell would have its purpose and use and ALL would be used depending on situation, battlefield or whatever...

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted October 03, 2020 09:25 PM

The AI would need to be rebuilt to play efficiently, true.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted October 04, 2020 05:19 AM

But !!MA (Monster Attributes) says a lot already. You give the strongest stats to monster, but you keep the same value. Yes AI buy weaker monster, and AI rejects the strongest monster. Because value is wrong. So Black Dragon and Gold Dragon must be the same value, if not, AI rejects larger troops, because another has better value. HotA gave a lesser value to Phoenix, so AI takes another troops. HotA Team's own mind Phoenixes are weak or fear. Value also affects troops stay at town or smaller troops to beat the neutral Dracoliches or Azure Dragons.

Now you know why AI isn't interested Diplomacy. Monsters aren't protected species to AI also used scouts poorly and AI can't use a vision in the spell or know about monster.
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Aciel
Aciel


Hired Hero
posted October 04, 2020 07:44 AM

I od agree with some of the people above.

We own Hota modders since they're doing it for free and that's why it's unfair to complain too much

Although many people don't want skills rework, I'd welcome them any time. Skills like Eagle eye/First Aid is omitted by players in multiplayer anyway, so you can't go wrong with fixing them. You can't break what does not work.

80% of balance would come from changing Magic Skills, which are extremaly important. I still think giving Water the resurrection spell and Fire the Implosion is the easiest way to fix it. TP should belong to all schools.  
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 04, 2020 07:56 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 07:57, 04 Oct 2020.

Aciel said:
I still think giving Water the resurrection spell and Fire the Implosion is the easiest way to fix it. TP should belong to all schools.  

Resurrection under Water means Overlords and Barbarians can't learn it.
Implosion under Fire means that Fire Immune creatures are now immune to it.
TP in all magic schools, means you can learn it from any Tome of Magic, which will make it a lot more common. (But this spell is horribly designed anyway.)

Yeah I don't think it's a good idea to be honest.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2020 12:17 PM

TP is the best-designed spell of the game as it is what makes maps above size L playable.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 04, 2020 12:48 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:59, 04 Oct 2020.

At unskilled/basic it's fine, but at advanced and expert it becomes one of the most broken things in the game!
Why does it have to become 100 times more powerful, from basic to advanced Earth Magic?! It's one of the reasons why the game is UNPLAYABLE without Earth Magic. Might as well let all heroes start with Earth Magic and call it a day.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2020 12:54 PM

No sane person with a real life would want to play a long game without it at Expert level.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 04, 2020 12:58 PM

Expert TP is for noobs. It's when you start out at easy difficulty and consider if you are good enough to play at normal.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted October 04, 2020 01:11 PM

Yes and no. TP should H4 style, but Giant map. Alternative is Magic Plains can use a Expert TP.
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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2020 04:03 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Expert TP is for noobs. It's when you start out at easy difficulty and consider if you are good enough to play at normal.


A person who ostentatively refuses to play against human players and refuses to play any maps but their own shouldn't call anybody "noob".

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 04, 2020 04:13 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 16:14, 04 Oct 2020.

Maybe you should try playing like I do, when TP only takes you to nearest town, while AI can go anywhere. Then maybe you'll realise how tough it can be without your precious expert TP.

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