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sirironfist
Known Hero
King of the ogres
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posted October 02, 2020 10:20 AM |
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Because you can't use it as casually as the other spells or if you do it obviously comes at a cost.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 10:29 AM |
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My point was Inferno, Fireball/Frost Ring and Land Mine needs to be stronger, Armageddon needs to be weaker and Meteor Shower more expensive. But I already did that myself, so I don't really care, but I still don't understand why HotA haven't tried to balance the damage spells, as that is extremely easy to do.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted October 02, 2020 11:04 AM |
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Because it would mean tens of competitive PvP matches to balance the spells for them.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 11:19 AM |
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That is completely unnecessary.
I'll tell you guys right here what you need to get a more balanced game:
Death Ripple: Power: 5 -> 6
Fire Wall: Power 10 -> 13 but make Luna get 3% per level, like other spell specialists.
Fireball: Power: 10 -> 15 Cost: 15/12 -> 12/9 (like Frost Ring.)
Frost Ring: Power: 10 -> 15
Land Mine: Power: 10 -> 16 Cost: 18/15 -> 12/9 (could create 8 Land Mines at all levels, since Land Mine is a terrible spell anyway.)
Inferno: Power: 10 -> 18 Cost: 16/12 -> 20/16 (closer to Chain Lightning.)
Meteor Shower: Cost: 16/12 -> 20/16 (closer to Chain Lightning.)
Armageddon: Power 40 -> 20
There you go, much better game already. 
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2020 11:57 AM |
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Lol.
Yes, on your map and your funny rules. I hate to rain on your parade but you are the only person in the world who plays that way though.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted October 02, 2020 11:59 AM |
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@phoenix4ever
They would still need to test it in competitive PvP in tens of matches, regardless of change. They don't leave any change untested thoroughly. That's one of the reasons HotA survived up until now.
Besides, what matters most in the end is how that influences the gameplay itself.
____________
Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 11:59 AM |
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It has nothing to do with my map and my other rules, it's just common sense really. But Heroes fans tends to be extremely conservative, so if you rather stick with unbalance go ahead, as long as I can play the better game.
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pellish
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2020 12:47 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
It has nothing to do with my map and my other rules, it's just common sense really. But Heroes fans tends to be extremely conservative, so if you rather stick with unbalance go ahead, as long as I can play the better game.
Sure it does. What makes the game "balanced" and of "common sense" to you might not work for others - ever thought of that? No one else plays the same map over and over again trying to make every possible alternative as viable as the next one. That's not how Heroes 3 works.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 01:01 PM |
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Fine, stick to your old, boring and unbalanced game then.
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pellish
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2020 01:12 PM |
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2020 02:27 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
That is completely unnecessary.
I'll tell you guys right here what you need to get a more balanced game
Seriously? Do you also offer advice on other topics of life?
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 05:25 PM |
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I don't understand why you guys are even playing HotA, when you don't want them to change even the smallest things.
Maybe you should go back to SoD or maybe RoE, bugs and all.
* Town Portal - To any town, unlimited times a day while being very cheap. No problemo.
* Dimension Door - 4 times a day. Yay!, jumping is fun.
* Fly and DD - Both in Air Magic, that's cool.
* Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment - Only +24 stats. (levels)
* Cloak of the Undead King - Sure, a few more liches is fine.
* Armageddon deals tons of damage and you can get away with it, when you have 1 Fire Elemental in your army. Sure a Fire Elemental can be better than an Azure Dragon.
* Animate Dead being permanent from the start, while Resurrection requires Advanced Earth Magic. Nothing to see here, especially not Thant.
* Learning, First Aid, Eagle Eye and Ballistics - Still awesome skills to get for both main heroes, scouts and town defenders.
* Disguise being broken AND useless at the same time. - Just another pretty spell to look at in your spell book.
* Some other spells being almost completely useless. (Magic Mirror, Slayer, Land Mine etc.) - They are supposed to stay useless, right?
* Wizard's Well - No problem at all.
* Angel Wings - Yup, very balanced.
* Gold Dragons - Implosion yes-yes, Resurrection/Sacrifice no-no. Totally fair.
* Orb of Vulnerability - Can strip dragons of immunities, but you still can't cast anything other than Dispel on them. Makes totally sense.
You guys don't see all these imbalances or you just don't want to fix them, because they have always been like that.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted October 02, 2020 05:40 PM |
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People usually don't get all those OP artifacts end-game, and when they face each other they both usually have plenty of OP artifacts. DD and Fly are usually banned (but with Tournament rules, you are allowed to cast DD only once/turn I think). The Cloak is very hard to assemble in PvP. Gold Dragons - HotA doesn't change creatures like that, and they were most probably intended to be like that by NWC; Arma tactic is usually banned and can be very risky and/or bothersome to use in PvP; Animate Dead was already discussed somewhere else and clarified, following logic rather than balance; Spell balance will come, but as I said, they need to test them thoroughly to make sure they are well-executed; Angel Wings are banned too, usually; Orb of Vulnerability - is this the penalty for being the one attacked by the wielder of it?; Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment - it is OP, but as I said above; Wizard's Well - just as rare as the Cloak, maybe a little more common; Skills - those are to be balanced too, but later; TP - well, they could add something about it in Tournament Rules, not sure if they actually did it though.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 05:47 PM |
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I would just like them to start addressing some of these issues.
Let's say they fix 3 of the things in my list next update and 3 more next update again.
Then the game would be much more fair and fun.
Sometimes I just don't understand how things are taking them so long, they started back in 2011, right?
Now they are focused on Factory, campaigns etc., so fixing imbalanced stuff I fear is not really a priority. Maybe it will be in 5 years? Let's hope we are still here then.
At least I have fixed most of the problems myself, but I would still like to see HotA do more.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted October 02, 2020 05:50 PM |
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They fixed most of the imbalanced stuff according to the online matches played in HotA (many of the changes are applied by using Tournament Rules, like the DD nerf). There can be a few tweaks in their opinion, like some skills and spells, but they are in the midst of creating a new faction, and they were planned for after Factory anyway (which is 2021).
Edit: Diplomacy is nerfed on all default templates, all HotA default maps at least and is also nerfed by default when creating a new map/template.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 02, 2020 05:59 PM |
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A good theory, but expert's homm views. Pro has different views. I play without Earth, if I use Thant. Bother my internet was slow. Now's I'm 42yo, I sleep too much and I have a psychosis. But I never changed my mind from the game and the strategy. Disguise? Quite excellent, when I used Disguise against friends, fooled friends told me they've seen my troops. But sometimes I used really splitted troops, for Armageddon. Disguised efreets are cheap. I tried players go to slip. You forgot scouts use a Diplomacy, so you buy a Azure Dragon, and you can't see his/her troops, if used Disguise, for example. I know legion peasants are also good in Disguise and damage, if you use a Teleport. Because you don't use a Air and Counterstrike, for example. "Main scout or the best scout" Thant uses Air. You get a better strategy, but what's the balance and the answer? If you have DD from the mage guild. So the last strategy is haste, blind and animate dead. Remember use a Skeleton, Diplomacy and Disguise.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2020 06:15 PM |
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@FirePaladin I haven't said anything about Diplomacy.
I made my own rules for Diplomacy:
Level 7 units are always savage and level 6 units are hostile or savage depending on what they are guarding. Units can join for free or normal amount of money.
That works very well.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted October 02, 2020 06:17 PM |
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That was meant for Ghost, although at that time I didn't really feel like making a new post to mention just that.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Tordah
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2020 09:22 PM |
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tbh i sorta agree with Phoenix4ever more than the more conservative crew on this one.
I really do believe there is room for improvement. We are sticking to the game because it's astonishingly good and there is a plenty of nostalgic value to it, but that doesn't mean we can't progress as a community.
Fire magic has always been undervalued and underpowered. I think there is a case to be made that it should be on par with other magics at least. I find the armageddon argument to be a little silly because i'm not really considering it at all when speaking of balance because i simply the spell to be dumb. I would happily sacrifice armageddon altogether to have fire magic reworked and made into a viable option.
Note that i have no hard feelings regarding status spells (curse/bloodlust are fantastic level 1 spells, blind is cool, slayer and frenzy have situational uses and a reason to be, and berserk is my favorite spell, especially expert level lol), it really is just damage spells that are severely outclassed by the other elements.
the really easiest example is that by design water magic should deal less damages since all spells are less costly and also it has incredible support spells. now compare air magic's lightning bolt to ice bolt and this is properly highlighted. yet compare fire magic's fireball to frost ring and you get the same damages yet frost ring is considerably cheaper to use. when it comes to level 2/3 spells fire is the weakest
check higher level damages spells and compare air/earth/fire and fire again is the weakest.
it's just unfortunate man. if at least fire magic was balanced then inferno wouldn't be dragged down this hard, because when you combine the faction that has the arguably worst offering in units with the most chances of getting the worst offering in spells in its mage guild, well you get a faction that everyone sorta agrees is just the worst in the game.
i would argue this would be the final patch needed into the game to make all the core content viable in modern competitive play. oh that and maybe eagle eyes and learning ability which are garbage right now.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted October 02, 2020 09:40 PM |
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I never said not to balance or change it. And I don't have so much nostalgia with H3 since I got into it relatively recently. I just said that such changes require thorough testing in the case of HotA, since much of the community relies on their changes.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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