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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2014 07:33 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
But it isn't its own. Ukraine is its own country.
If Ukraine becomes an EU country, it will be because it opted for it.
If Ukraine becomes part of NATO, it will be because it opted for it.
It shouldn't be hard to figure out why; the EU is economically, socially, and politically a more attractive option, because she is more respecting to human welfare. Europeans might not necessarily see themselves that way, but that's just because many of them lack the age and/or the perspective to realize how ****ed up the eastward alternatives are. It was Ukrainians that ousted their president, not NATO forces, and it is Russian troops that are directly intervening with an internal Ukrainian affair. The conclusion, then, is that Russia is acting uninvited, both for Ukraine and for the wider community.
Indirectly, of course, it is complimentary to NATO's goals to have another country within its fold, and one so close to the Russian state, but you are putting the cart before the horse. The West may support a change in Ukrainian politics - which it surely does - but it is just capitalizing on an opportunity that is occurring from a shifting opinion within Ukraine, it is not creating it. How can you defend the view that it is a Western push when the change is triggered within the actual country?
"Wha-- the hell.." -> profile -> Location: US -> "That alone explains it..."
Just 1 question regarding "How can you defend the view that it is a Western push when the change is triggered within the actual country?" - How do you know it's within the country and not a clever manipulation by foreign interests?
Dude, spare me, I LIVED this snow on my own skin.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 03, 2014 07:34 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
So russia just demanded unconditional surrender of all ukrainian military assets in the crimea or they will assault the bases. The ukrainian ministry has not yet validated the claim. They have time till 0300 UTC tomorrow. Nicely timed before the EU can make a decision on the whole conflict, it's going to be decided before their meeting.
Heard that on the news just now. If Ukrainian forces are the ones defending themselves on their own soil then Russia will definitely have gone too far and effectively declared war on Ukraine. As long as the russian troops just defend themselves and the pro-russian people they can still claim to be keeping the peace.
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 03, 2014 07:37 PM |
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It's not official, the russian command denied it. Might be just to pressure more turncoats, might be real. Wait and see.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2014 08:08 PM |
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Russia is the no 1 superpower at denying obvious things.
But seriously, certain subjects may be extremely complex, but understanding the intentions of super powers is really easy.
It's getting as much as they possibly can.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 03, 2014 08:10 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
But it isn't its own. Ukraine is its own country.
If Ukraine becomes an EU country, it will be because it opted for it.
If Ukraine becomes part of NATO, it will be because it opted for it.
It shouldn't be hard to figure out why; the EU is economically, socially, and politically a more attractive option, because she is more respecting to human welfare. Europeans might not necessarily see themselves that way, but that's just because many of them lack the age and/or the perspective to realize how ****ed up the eastward alternatives are. It was Ukrainians that ousted their president, not NATO forces, and it is Russian troops that are directly intervening with an internal Ukrainian affair. The conclusion, then, is that Russia is acting uninvited, both for Ukraine and for the wider community.
Indirectly, of course, it is complimentary to NATO's goals to have another country within its fold, and one so close to the Russian state, but you are putting the cart before the horse. The West may support a change in Ukrainian politics - which it surely does - but it is just capitalizing on an opportunity that is occurring from a shifting opinion within Ukraine, it is not creating it. How can you defend the view that it is a Western push when the change is triggered within the actual country?
When did any country's sovereignty suddenly begin to matter when a bigger and more powerful country has major interests related to it? Seriously, drop the 2D glasses, you look smarter than that and you should be able to see the same **** that currently happens in Ukraine happening elsewhere but with your country playing the invader and trampling international laws, sovereignty and whatnot. One would think that you guys have sobered up during the last decade. The great powers are above laws and philosophies when they have no use of externally approved justification for their actions, they are only regulated by the presence of other great powers which have different interests. That's the sorry truth about the international politics, everything else is PR for the masses. I guess you have to live in a country that has been on the receiving end of this truth to actually see it though.
Speaking of PR, Russia is still a century behind. A typical Western state would launch a propaganda onslaught aimed at convincing as many people as possible in the righteousness of its actions and that largely works. In Moscow however, they still seem to think that realpolitik doesn't need to be served with garnish that improves its taste. They could make a joke of the claim that the entire Ukraine wants to join the EU and that what happened in Kiev represents the whole nation's opinion but instead they just prefer to drop troops and launch ultimatums.
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blizzardboy
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Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 03, 2014 08:10 PM |
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Stevie said:
"Wha-- the hell.." -> profile -> Location: US -> "That alone explains it..."
Just 1 question regarding "How can you defend the view that it is a Western push when the change is triggered within the actual country?" - How do you know it's within the country and not a clever manipulation by foreign interests?
Dude, spare me, I LIVED this snow on my own skin.
A clever manipulation of over half the country.
The world is connected. Ideas, goods, and people move around. The people in the streets were not NATO operatives in civilian clothing, or being paid by NATO operatives, or being intimidated by NATO operatives. There were not American agents chilling out in the trees pointing riot devices into the crowds causing them to riot. They were just normal protestors. Ukraine sees Russia and it sees the EU, and it is shifting towards the EU, probably because the EU doesn't treat people like ****. That is the obvious answer and also the correct one, as is usually the case. Russia has now isolated itself from the outside world more so than any time since 1991.
I'm not going to substitute straightforward explanations with far more convoluted explanations unless you can show me why. "It's all a clever manipulation, man" isn't good enough.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 03, 2014 08:19 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 20:20, 03 Mar 2014.
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Russia actually has a really strong internal PR campaign going on. It just can not control the western media.
What it can and does control is the media in the Krim. They've blocked cellphones in some areas, reporters are being harassed, filming equipment is broken. Have you heard that the Tatars made their own homeguards independent of the regional government and russia? If you haven't consider that a russian win there.
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Stevie
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posted March 03, 2014 08:39 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:43, 03 Mar 2014.
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Blizzardboy said:
A clever manipulation of over half the country.
The world is connected. Ideas, goods, and people move around. The people in the streets were not NATO operatives in civilian clothing, or being paid by NATO operatives, or being intimidated by NATO operatives. There were not American agents chilling out in the trees pointing riot devices into the crowds causing them to riot. They were just normal protestors. Ukraine sees Russia and it sees the EU, and it is shifting towards the EU, probably because the EU doesn't treat people like ****. That is the obvious answer and also the correct one, as is usually the case. Russia has now isolated itself from the outside world more so than any time since 1991.
I understand why you think that way. You're being optimistic, and you think that what you see happening in Ukraine on the news is true. I've learned to distrust that after seeing what happened to my own country. The Ukrainians are being manipulated now with promises of freedom and welfare, but the only thing they're doing is opening the country to the exploiting West. They'll get ripped off of every natural resources they got, their industry'll be sold to junkyards and the people will be forced to work for nothing or immigrate.
You might not believe it but that's how it's been here in Romania for the last 25 years after the revolution. And I bet Bulgaria's the same. And countries like Libya, Egypt, Syria and now Ukraine were the targets of the same manipulation and infiltration tactics. You gotta be too naive to think that foreign interests are not at play in such events.
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blizzardboy
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posted March 03, 2014 08:46 PM |
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Foreign manipulation = owning a television and/or the internet and/or access to a local library and/or having a functioning set of ears.
The standard of living in Ukraine exceeds its standard of living under the USSR. Experiencing problems post-USSR because you didn't instantly transform into uptown Luxembourg = / = "we are being exploited", and even if that claim is perfectly legitimate, it is still moot, because they are being exploited less now than they were 30 years ago, which means that a distancing from Russia is the better avenue.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 03, 2014 09:00 PM |
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Stevie said:
Blizzardboy said:
A clever manipulation of over half the country.
The world is connected. Ideas, goods, and people move around. The people in the streets were not NATO operatives in civilian clothing, or being paid by NATO operatives, or being intimidated by NATO operatives. There were not American agents chilling out in the trees pointing riot devices into the crowds causing them to riot. They were just normal protestors. Ukraine sees Russia and it sees the EU, and it is shifting towards the EU, probably because the EU doesn't treat people like ****. That is the obvious answer and also the correct one, as is usually the case. Russia has now isolated itself from the outside world more so than any time since 1991.
I understand why you think that way. You're being optimistic, and you think that what you see happening in Ukraine on the news is true. I've learned to distrust that after seeing what happened to my own country. The Ukrainians are being manipulated now with promises of freedom and welfare, but the only thing they're doing is opening the country to the exploiting West. They'll get ripped off of every natural resources they got, their industry'll be sold to junkyards and the people will be forced to work for nothing or immigrate.
You might not believe it but that's how it's been here in Romania for the last 25 years after the revolution. And I bet Bulgaria's the same. And countries like Libya, Egypt, Syria and now Ukraine were the targets of the same manipulation and infiltration tactics. You gotta be too naive to think that foreign interests are not at play in such events.
That's a lot coming from someone who's quality of life is over twice of that an average ukrainian.
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted March 03, 2014 09:06 PM |
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Russia is in the right here, I wouldn't stand for a terrorist regime on my borders, especially when they have control of such a large proportion of ethnic Russians.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 03, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor said:
Russia is in the right here, I wouldn't stand for a terrorist regime on my borders, especially when they have control of such a large proportion of ethnic Russians.
You got it the wrong way. It is Ukraine that has a terrorist regime on its borders.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 03, 2014 09:32 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
Dang it, why does Ukraine not border Sweden?!?
Because if they did, we would have to terrorize them for stealing our precious blue and yellow flag colours!  
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JoonasTo
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 03, 2014 09:39 PM |
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted March 03, 2014 09:40 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor said:
a terrorist regime
wtf?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2014 09:43 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
That's a lot coming from someone who's quality of life is over twice of that an average ukrainian.
What's that got to do with anything? Ow, you're implying that it's thanks to the EU? Income-wise we were doing a lot better under communism. And we had our industry and resources. And no debt.
So if the Ukrainians think that EU's gonna magically increase their salaries they're sorely mistaken.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted March 03, 2014 09:49 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
But you old men are allowed to take part.
 I can't run and can barely walk. We'd get shot at and then you'd be mad...I just can't do that to US.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2014 10:25 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:26, 03 Mar 2014.
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Tsar-Ivor said:
Russia is in the right here, I wouldn't stand for a terrorist regime on my borders, especially when they have control of such a large proportion of ethnic Russians.
Yes, the way Yanukovych was getting rid off was a coup. But not an unjustified coup. There is nothing wrong about people showing some civil disobedience at the face of corruption and authoritarianism.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2014 10:40 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor said:
Russia is in the right here, I wouldn't stand for a terrorist regime on my borders, especially when they have control of such a large proportion of ethnic Russians.
 Russia does border North Korea, but they don't have many ethnic Russians.
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Eccentric Opinion
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted March 03, 2014 10:42 PM |
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He obviously means Finland..
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Living time backwards
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